Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[TheDivineWatermark]

The "left behinders" will have so much evidence lying around all over the place confirming the truth of Scripture that only a stark raving fool will deny it.

There's your mistake.

"... lying around all over the place..." .

No.

It will be just as much "tangible evidence" ('lying around') as Jesus' FIRST ascension ON FF / His Resurrection Day (John 20:17)... when NO ONE *SAW* Him do His "[active] I ASCEND" (that He TOLD MM He was doing... this being some "40 days" BEFORE His later VISIBLE ascension in Acts 1): NONE.



NO ONE believed her (Jesus later that day "UPBRAIDED THEM" b/c they didn't!)... what Jesus told her to "SAY UNTO them".

 

[Guojing]

FreeGrace2 said:
There's a whole lot more in the Bible than just the truth about Jesus' Second Advent.

Uh, no. No one "ensures their own salvation". That was taken care of completely by Jesus alone. Salvation is a free gift. All you can do is receive it on the basis of trust alone in Christ alone.

OK, let's unpack this a bit.

First, the tribulation doesn't occur "in the age to come". The Tribulation occurs in THIS AGE. In fact, it's the END of THIS AGE.

Second, no believer will take the mark, since Jesus was real clear when He said those He gives eternal life "shall never perish". But it seems you don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28.

The clear point of v.28 is that the basis for "never perishing" is on WHAT Jesus DID, not what any human does.

iow, Jesus GIVES and recipients SHALL NEVER PERISH. It couldn't be any more clear than that.

So, what about this theory about believers taking the mark. Don't you realize that IF IF IF that were to happen, then what Jesus said would prove to be UNTRUE. Do you believe that Jesus would say anything that was UNTRUE? I sure don't.

So, since believers will be on earth during the tribulation, what's to keep one of them from taking the mark? The Bible clearly teaches about God's discipline. Paul summarized God's discipline in 1 Cor 11:30; weakness, sickness and physical death. Do you see the progression here?

Sometimes, the discipline goes straight to death, as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira. So, by the time the marrk of the beast will be available, God will have "gleaned" all the unstable, unfaithful, or disobedient believers from the earth through the work of the Tribulation. So only the faithful believers will be left, who won't take the mark, but rather will die the martyr's death.

Finally, your comments about Rev 14 and speaking to an angel is rather snarky. Jesus DID do all the work.

Why do you disagree with the Bible?

When you claim that no believer will take the mark, are you saying believers will lose their ability to choose?

Otherwise, you seem to be giving a circular argument, i.e

Truly saved people will not take the mark.
If I see someone take the mark, then I know he is not truly saved.
Either way, salvation is by faith alone.

What does Revelation 14:9-12 literally says to you? What's so snarky about believing the literal meaning of that passage?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Let me see if I can finish your sentence in the way you are intending (... something like...)

"Now, which of the 'left behind' folks are going to be taken by surprise by the Second Coming when they'll be surrounded by [blatant evidences of people having previously 'disappeared' !!?? (seven years earlier)]" (<--is that CLOSE to what you were intending to convey??)

I did say I had already made a post about that (I don't want to go through typing all that out again... maybe I can find that post later, but I'll post the gist of it here):

--recall, I just said in that other post in this thread, (following "our Rapture") THEN 2Th2:10-12 will come into play - "God shall SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, so that they should BELIEVE THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI..."

--recall, I've said... much of "Christendom" (the segment that "come in His name, but who are not actually saved/believers/trusting-in-Christ-for-salvation") will still be on the earth following "our Rapture"... many of these will tend to not want to believe "what just happened" was "Rapture [of the believers]," but SOMETHING ELSE (coz, duh, *they themselves [professed Christians]* are still here! *Evidence* to themselves that surely it was NOT THAT ['RAPTURE'], that "just happened," but rather SOMETHING ELSE... which they will *think* they have some biblical-backing for [explanation]... but *really* it was that they WERE NOT SAVED [their not having trusted in Christ for salvation], even though they *think* their massive pile of "good works" has merited it to them and they they ARE Christians)

--recall, I've said that the Olivet Discourse [except for about 12 verses in Lk21:12-24 re: 70ad events] are all about what happens FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (this includes the parallels I've pointed out, like the following passage I will quote below):

Luke 12:35-48 - [parts being PARALLEL to Matt24 near the passage under present discussion]
[all FOLLOWING "our Rapture"]
(Matthew 24:36-51; Mark 13:32-37)

35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; [<--see my post about the "LAMPS LIT" taking place for the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period, i.e. for the "NIGHT WATCHES"] 36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding [RETURN FROM the wedding, as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom]; [so] that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat [G347--the MEAL (<--see the parallels I've listed for this, like Matt8:11, etc)], and will come forth and serve them. 38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. [<--corresponding to the 8-10 "BLESSED" passages speaking of this point in the chronology--His Second Coming to the earth FOR the earthly MK age to commence--these being "still-living" mortals (saints only!) who will ENTER it / that "MK-age"]

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. 40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


--more to say, but I need to close for now... (perhaps I can try to find that other post I was talking about)



This ^ is just a part of my explanation regarding your Q asking, "which of the 'left behind' folks are going to be taken by surprise by the Second Coming when they'll be surrounded by [blatant evidences of people having previously 'disappeared' !!?? (if you meant that)]" -- esp the fact that it will be a time of GREAT DECEPTION (with SEAL #1 [note: 'bow' often representing 'DECEPTION'] having occurred at the START of this time-period [the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period], parallel Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]" aka "the man of sin" "whose COMING is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and LYING wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness unto them who..." along with the fact that "God shall SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, so that they should BELIEVE THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI..." etc etc...

The Antediluvians had zero evidence the Flood would actually occur and their choice to exercise unbelief resulted in total ignorance that they were already lost for 7 days prior to the first drops of rain hitting the ground. They "knew not until the Flood came and took them all away."

According to you Jesuit Futurists, those "left behind" will not only know full well that Judgment surely will come, but will know exactly when it comes.

Seriously, my confused Jesuit Futurist friends...can't you see how utterly opposite the experience of the Antediluvians is compared to your Jesuit interpretation of prophecy?

 

[cv5]

Here's why what happened to the Antediluvians doesn't square with this secret rapture nonsense:

The Antediluvians had zero evidence that what Noah was preaching was actually true. They never saw it rain, lightning, thunder, or flood anywhere...only a dew which came up and watered the ground. Therefore, they "knew not" that destruction was coming until 7 days after their fate was sealed when they were finally carried away in the destruction.

The "left behinders" will have so much evidence lying around all over the place confirming the truth of Scripture that only a stark raving fool will deny it.

Can you understand the difference between the once class who "knew not" with the other that will "know full well"?

You are one confused dude. Cognitive dissonance on display.
At any rate I am fully convinced that the Rapture is biblical doctrine. I have not seen one reasonable case to conclude otherwise. Trust me when I tell you that is my blessed hope. And believe it when I tell you that's what I'm waiting for. This is my testimony for you.

Here are a couple of bonus Rapture versus for you....

Tit 2:13
looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

1 Thess 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Well, since there's no pre-trib rapture, we still have a few prophetic events to unfold first such as the Mark of the Beast, the 7 Last Plagues, etc. So, no, the gathering of the saints to Jesus when He comes in the clouds can't happen "at any moment". But, we can know "when it is near, even at the door".

This verse (in bold ^ ) is referring to the point in time of [what happens in] Matt24:29-31 (His Second Coming to the earth), per CONTEXT, with the "IT" of this verse referring to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, at the "GREAT" trumpet... corresponding with the following:

12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphratesd to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [NOT "AS ONE" like WE will be!] 13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD in the holy mountain in Jerusalem.

- Isaiah 27:12-13 [ the "gathering" of STILL-LIVING mortals (saints only!), into ONE PLACE UPON THE EARTH, who are still on the earth upon His "RETURN" there (and who will have never lifted off the earth "to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR")]

 

[cv5]

The Antediluvians had zero evidence the Flood would actually occur and their choice to exercise unbelief resulted in total ignorance that they were already lost for 7 days prior to the first drops of rain hitting the ground. They "knew not until the Flood came and took them all away."

After the "secret rapture" turns the whole world on it's head, those "left behind" will not only know full well that Judgment surely will come, but will know exactly when it comes.

Seriously, my confused Jesuit Futurist friends...can't you see how utterly opposite the experience of the Antediluvians is compared to your Jesuit interpretation of prophecy?

If a true prophet preaching isn't evidence we are in a lot of trouble. But they had more than that they had a gigantic boat being built in the backyard by a bunch of the most righteous people on the planet earth.

What you fail to comprehend is that by God's own standard of measure, the preaching of Noah AND the building of the ark was indeed adequate to have them repent. It was God's preaching plan after all wasn't it? And rest assured God is just and that preaching was indeed adequate. They simply loved their sin. Despised God's plan of salvation. Ridiculed the righteousness of Noah and his family. So they all died.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

According to you Jesuit Futurists, those "left behind" will not only know full well that Judgment surely will come, but will know exactly when it comes.

That's not at all what I've said.

I've said they (the "lost/unsaved"/those who will NOT come to faith) will NOT know BECAUSE they will disregard God's Word[!], and will deluded-ly *think* that "what just happened" was SOMETHING ELSE (certainly not "Rapture" [according to their faulty and deceived thoughts]), but in their delusion, they will be dead wrong.


[not true of ALL those following "our Rapture"]


It's almost like you completely did not even READ my post (...disregard, much??)

 

[cv5]

The Antediluvians had zero evidence the Flood would actually occur and their choice to exercise unbelief resulted in total ignorance that they were already lost for 7 days prior to the first drops of rain hitting the ground. They "knew not until the Flood came and took them all away."

According to you Jesuit Futurists, those "left behind" will not only know full well that Judgment surely will come, but will know exactly when it comes.

Seriously, my confused Jesuit Futurist friends...can't you see how utterly opposite the experience of the Antediluvians is compared to your Jesuit interpretation of prophecy?

There is every reason to think that the wise, the believers post rapture will have a VERY good idea of what is going on. They will have the Bible, the preaching of the 144,000, proclamations of angels flying in heaven.....Oh yes they will know what's happening. They will understand that this is the seven year tribulation. After all they are believers. Elect by God...so they do know the truth.

In fact they will be so resolute in their belief, that they will refuse the mark of the beast and suffer martyrdom.

BTW.....your analogy is faulty.

So far you are batting zero buddy. Seriously you really are 100% wrong 100% of the time it's amazing.

 

[FreeGrace2]

When you claim that no believer will take the mark, are you saying believers will lose their ability to choose?

I think you missed my point. God knows full well who, among His children, would take the mark to avoid persecution/death, vs, not taking the mark and being executed. It is those children of His that He will simply remove from the earth prior to the mark being given.

Don't you understand that IF IF IF any believer should take the mark, that would mean they will end up in the lake of fire? And don't you understand that IF IF IF any believer ends up in the lake of fire, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 cannot be true?

Otherwise, you seem to be giving a circular argument, i.e

Truly saved people will not take the mark.
If I see someone take the mark, then I know he is not truly saved.
Either way, salvation is by faith alone.

OK, now explain how that is a "circular argument".

What does Revelation 14:9-12 literally says to you? What's so snarky about believing the literal meaning of that passage?

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,
10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

What this passage says to me literally is that anyone who worships the beast and image and receives its mark will be tormented and the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. And they will have no rest day or night.

And faithful believers need to have patient endurance.

So, what's the problem?

If any believer takes the mark, their end will prove Jesus WRONG. Is that what you want to argue?

Jesus said, in the PLAINEST OF WORDS, that those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Those who take the mark will certainly perish.

 

[Guojing]

I think you missed my point. God knows full well who, among His children, would take the mark to avoid persecution/death, vs, not taking the mark and being executed. It is those children of His that He will simply remove from the earth prior to the mark being given.

Don't you understand that IF IF IF any believer should take the mark, that would mean they will end up in the lake of fire? And don't you understand that IF IF IF any believer ends up in the lake of fire, then what Jesus said in John 10:28 cannot be true?


OK, now explain how that is a "circular argument".


9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,
10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”
12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

What this passage says to me literally is that anyone who worships the beast and image and receives its mark will be tormented and the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. And they will have no rest day or night.

And faithful believers need to have patient endurance.

So, what's the problem?

If any believer takes the mark, their end will prove Jesus WRONG. Is that what you want to argue?

Jesus said, in the PLAINEST OF WORDS, that those He gives eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Those who take the mark will certainly perish.

Let me give you a simple scenario what I mean.

If the Tribulation is 7 years, someone believed in year 1, following Paul in 1 Cor 15:1-4 that Christ died for his sins and rose again on the 3rd day.

Was he saved right there and then in year 1? You have to say yes, since you believe it is salvation by faith in Christ alone.

Later on, in year 5, he decided that participating in the economic system is important for him, and decides then to take the mark of the beast,

Is he still saved then? If not, do you think he has

• Lost his salvation that he received in year 1? or
• Was never saved in the first place, even in year 1?

You understand now what I am trying to say?

 

[Phoneman-777]

There's your mistake.

"... lying around all over the place..." .

No.

It will be just as much "tangible evidence" ('lying around') as Jesus' FIRST ascension ON FF / His Resurrection Day (John 20:17)... when NO ONE *SAW* Him do His "[active] I ASCEND" (that He TOLD MM He was doing... this being some "40 days" BEFORE His later VISIBLE ascension in Acts 1): NONE.



NO ONE believed her (Jesus later that day "UPBRAIDED THEM" b/c they didn't!)... what Jesus told her to "SAY UNTO them".

Yes, crashed planes, derailed trains, cars careening out of control, and clothes and jewelry and prosthetic limbs, etc., lying all over the planet on the spot where Christians disappeared in a "secret rapture" won't convince anyone that the prophecies are true and that Jesus is coming back in exactly 7 years to handle some serious business.

Yes, those "left behind" folks are going to be just as ignorant as the Antediluvians were about the fact that the shutting of the Ark door had sealed their doom 7 days prior to the first rain drops hitting the ground and they didn't even know it, right?

 

[Phoneman-777]

You are one confused dude. Cognitive dissonance on display.

Please elaborate. I don't try to hold to opposing views as equal and true - that's you guys

You guys claim that "left behind" witnesses to the greatest supernatural phenomenon in Earth's history confirming to everyone the truth of Jesus as Lord and to each their reservation with Divine Judgment in 7 short years...

...are no different than the Antediluvians who were so oblivious to the truth that they were completely ignorant of the fact that their doom had been sealed 7 days prior to the first rain drops hitting the ground. Yep, that's the lengths to which you guys are willing to go to make "as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of Man" fit into your Jesuit Futurist theology

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, crashed planes, derailed trains, cars careening out of control, and clothes and jewelry and prosthetic limbs, etc., lying all over the planet on the spot where Christians disappeared in a "secret rapture" won't convince anyone that the prophecies are true and that Jesus is coming back in exactly 7 years to handle some serious business.
Yes, those "left behind" folks are going to be just as ignorant as the Antediluvians were about the fact that the shutting of the Ark door had sealed their doom 7 days prior to the first rain drops hitting the ground and they didn't even know it, right?

"... crashed planes, derailed trains, cars careening out of control, and clothes and jewelry and prosthetic limbs, etc., lying all over the planet on the spot where Christians disappeared in ..."

I'll say it once again. ^ THAT ^ is not what it will look like at the time of "our Rapture".


It will be like when Jesus' FIRST ascension took place ON HIS RESURRECTION DAY (John 20:17), *not* like His "40-day" LATER VISIBLE ascension in Acts 1.




I.e. NO ONE SAW it take place, nor any tangible "evidence" of it ('lying around')... ALL THEY HAD was MM's TESTIMONY/WORD ("what HE HAD SAID for her to 'SAY UNTO them'")

[... just as in Noah's day ]




... I think you've succumbed to a "fictional" version of it...

 

[Phoneman-777]

This verse (in bold ^ ) is referring to the point in time of [what happens in] Matt24:29-31 (His Second Coming to the earth), per CONTEXT, with the "IT" of this verse referring to His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, at the "GREAT" trumpet... corresponding with the following:

12 In that day the LORD will thresh from the flowing Euphratesd to the Wadi of Egypt, and you, O Israelites, will be gathered one by one. [NOT "AS ONE" like WE will be!] 13 And in that day a great trumpet will sound, and those who were perishing in Assyria will come forth with those who were exiles in Egypt. And they will worship the LORD in the holy mountain in Jerusalem.

- Isaiah 27:12-13 [ the "gathering" of STILL-LIVING mortals (saints only!), into ONE PLACE UPON THE EARTH, who are still on the earth upon His "RETURN" there (and who will have never lifted off the earth "to the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR")]

Help me out, bro. I can't figure out which Google translate language to select.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes, crashed planes, derailed trains, cars careening out of control, and clothes and jewelry and prosthetic limbs, etc., lying all over the planet on the spot where Christians disappeared in a "secret rapture" won't convince anyone that the prophecies are true and that Jesus is coming back in exactly 7 years to handle some serious business.

Recall what I said about those of "Christendom" (the segment of those who "come in His name," but who were not actually saved--these did NOT go in the Rapture)... now "picture that" for a minute, if you can... these "self-professed Christians" [tho never having trusted in Christ for salvation] are still on the earth at the start of the trib years:


[...if it were, say, (hypothetically) 20% of the population remaining on earth... ]

--they deluded-ly *think* that "what just happened" [actually "our Rapture" event] WAS the judgment ("TARES" being removed)

--they deluded-ly do NOT think there are "7 more years" till their "reward" for all their good works by which they wrongly-believe they have *earned their salvation* (instead, they think their "rewards" are coming any time soon... because "[said to angels] gather ye FIRST the TARES" happens first [in their improper "application" of this passage], so therefore their "reward" is NEXT in line!)

Yes, those "left behind" folks are going to be just as ignorant as the Antediluvians were about the fact that the shutting of the Ark door had sealed their doom 7 days prior to the first rain drops hitting the ground and they didn't even know it, right?

 

[cv5]

Please elaborate. I don't try to hold to opposing views as equal and true - that's you guys

You guys claim that "left behind" witnesses to the greatest supernatural phenomenon in Earth's history confirming to everyone the truth of Jesus as Lord and to each their reservation with Divine Judgment in 7 short years...

...are no different than the Antediluvians who were so oblivious to the truth that they were completely ignorant of the fact that their doom had been sealed 7 days prior to the first rain drops hitting the ground. Yep, that's the lengths to which you guys are willing to go to make "as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of Man" fit into your Jesuit Futurist theology

I hold that one view is true.......the pretrib rapture view. The alternative views clearly don't work on any conceivable level. The main failing being the incapacity to understand the difference between the Church and Israel. And a woeful misapprehension of prophecy.

You're not going to like the sound of this but you don't know what you're talking about. That being said your situation could not be more dire. I would urge you to take heed of what is being posted on this thread. That is if you want to avoid the great tribulation which by all accounts is at the very doorstep.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[EDIT to my last post] Again, there's no "crashing planes" or any other "tangible evidence" ('lying around') at the time of "our Rapture" (just like Jesus' FIRST ascension ON His Resurrection Day [ON FF]")


AND... this is when 2Th2:10-12 will thereafter come into play: "God SHALL SEND TO THEM GREAT DELUSION, so that they should BELIEVE THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI..." (in the trib years... FOLLOWING "our Rapture")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Help me out, bro. I can't figure out which Google translate language to select.

The verse you quoted (Matt24:33, and thus related to Matt24:29-31) is talking about Isaiah 27:12-13 (NOT "our Rapture" event)... but whenever I just post the "references," ppl either say they are too busy to go look up the references I've supplied, or that they don't care to put the mental effort into comprehending the connection being pointed out... but when I actually QUOTE the verse (because of those very complaints), you're saying you still can't go read those verses for yourself, or what??



--Matt24:33 & Matt24:29-31 = Isaiah 27:12-13 at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event)

 

[cv5]

The verse you quoted (Matt24:33, and thus related to Matt24:29-31) is talking about Isaiah 27:12-13 (NOT "our Rapture" event)... but whenever I just post the "references," ppl either say they are too busy to go look up the references I've supplied, or that they don't care to put the mental effort into comprehending the connection being pointed out... but when I actually QUOTE the verse (because of those very complaints), you're saying you still can't go read those verses for yourself, or what??



--Matt24:33 & Matt24:29-31 = Isaiah 27:12-13 at the time of His "RETURN" to the earth (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event)

That may have not helped him but I find this connection to Isaiah 27 is absolutely thrilling. Probably the best thing that I've learned in months to be honest. It has made my day believe me. Much obliged. Again.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

Why did none of the church believe this until John Darby?