Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[Runningman]

No, they are not the same events. As I just posted, one is a blessed event and the other is plague of wrath. Just because the word 'trumpet' is used in both does not make them the same trumpet and this is the error that many make.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about because Revelation 11 mentions the church (servants, prophets, and saints of Christ.) You seem to be ignoring this in order to make it fit with with false pre-trib doctrine.

"And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”

The above will surely take place. However, not at that specific time. After the sounding of the 7th trumpet, there will be seven bowl judgments which will complete God's wrath which must take place before the Lord can return. Jesus will not return to the earth to end the age until after the 7th bowl has been poured out.



Matt.24: 29-31 is when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, where the gathering of the church is a completely different event which takes place prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath. Many people erroneously have the church gathered when Jesus is returning to the earth to end the age. The problem with this, is that it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God, which believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer, because Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer. The following scriptures are referring to each of their respective events:

Gathering of the church = John 14:1-3, I Cor.15:51-53, I Thess.4:13-18, Rev.3:10, 4:1

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age = Matt.13:24-30, 24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21

As believers in Christ, we have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. The church must therefore be removed from the earth prior to the commencement of God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal and ends with the 7th bowl.

Wrong again.

Revelation 6:12-17 describes the 6th Seal with the sun, moon, and stars going dark. In Matthew 24:29 Jesus says the sun, moon, and stars go dark after the tribulation of those days.

The Great Tribulation is not the wrath of God then. The wrath of God occurs after the Great Tribulation. I just proved it to you.

The Great Tribulation is the wrath of Satan.

Revelation 12:12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Now notice what happens next in this chapter and Revelation 13:

The Devil comes to Earth to persecute the woman and "her seed" and make war with the saints (saints are people like you and me - The Church or Body of Christ), to support the anti-Christ, Mark of the Beast, and the great tribulation. Why? Because he's angry and wants to cause a lot of pain for God's people before the end.

The Great Tribulation is conclusively the wrath of the devil and not God as you falsely claim.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Wrong again.

Revelation 6:12-17 describes the 6th Seal with the sun, moon, and stars going dark. In Matthew 24:29 Jesus says the sun, moon, and stars go dark after the tribulation of those days.

The 6th seal and the event of Matt.24:29 though similar, are two different events.

6th Seal = A great earthquake that stir the mountains and islands, the sun darkened like goat hair, the moon turned blood red.

Matt.24:29 = The sun and moon darkened and the stars falling from heaven to the earth.

Therefore, as stated, though these are similar, they are not the same event. Here is another problem: When the event of Matt.24:29 takes place with the sun and moon being darkened, it is immediately followed by the Lord returning to the earth to end the age. Therefore, there would be no time for the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and the seven bowls to follow the sun and moon being darkened in Matt.24:29 before the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

The Great Tribulation is not the wrath of God then. The wrath of God occurs after the Great Tribulation. I just proved it to you.

The next event that must take place is the gathering of the church. Following that will be the fulfillment of the last seven years of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. So, everything that takes place after the church is gathered is the time of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues brought by the two witnesses. Everything that takes place during that time falls under the wrath of God, including the beasts kingdom and the great tribulation. It will all be God's wrath, also known as 'The Day of the Lord.'

The Great Tribulation is the wrath of Satan.

Revelation 12:12
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

That this is Satan's wrath is also a false teaching that has crept into the church. Though Satan gets angry after he finds himself cast to the earth, it is during the time of God's wrath that this takes place. The entire period is the long prophesied time of God's wrath. Just because Satan gets angry during that time, does not make it the wrath of Satan.

Now notice what happens next in this chapter and Revelation 13:

The Devil comes to Earth to persecute the woman and "her seed" and make war with the saints (saints are people like you and me - The Church or Body of Christ), to support the anti-Christ, Mark of the Beast, and the great tribulation. Why? Because he's angry and wants to cause a lot of pain for God's people before the end.

The Great Tribulation is conclusively the wrath of the devil and not God as you falsely claim.

You need to go and do a study on 'The Day of the Lord' because that is the time period of God's wrath, regardless of what the devil does during that time. All of those things mentioned above will be done according to God's Sovereign will and purpose, including the beasts reign, the false prophet, the image of the beast, his mark, etc. It is all apart of God's wrath.

 

[ewq1938]

The Great Tribulation is conclusively the wrath of the devil and not God as you falsely claim.

Yes, all of this is correct and proper exegesis.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

All of this is describing the great trib and it is when the saints are persecuted by and his people. The wrath of comes at 7th trump and the great trib ends when the 6th trump is finished.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, all of this is correct and proper exegesis.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

All of this is describing the great trib and it is when the saints are persecuted by and his people. The wrath of comes at 7th trump and the great trib ends when the 6th trump is finished.

Well said and those are some really good supplemental verses that prove beyond a doubt the great trib is not from God, but rather from the devil and his people.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

My Greek lexicon doesn't support it either. That's why the English translations don't
The verb doesn't change meaning but is influenced by the accompanying verb.
In this case, "his bride has made herself ready."
"For the wedding of the Lamb has come, ἔρχομαι (erchomai)
and his bride has made herself ready"

As I've pointed out... the form of that verb in this verse is not how you ^ are showing it. Instead it is this:

" ἦλθεν ēlthen " - [G2064] - Revelation 19:7 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)

...which is why I provided the link showing the 90x (I think... out of 637x total occurrences) that this form of the word is used:

Greek Concordance: ἦλθεν (ēlthen) -- 90 Occurrences (biblehub.com)

... and I pointed out a couple of examples (using "CAME" -- like Matt12:42 re: the queen of Sheba - "she CAME" - same form of this word... but not the same form *you* are showing of this verb in your quote above, see)


[I'm not even sure that "squiggly mark" was above that letter, when I C&P'd from the "Original Text" place]

The same verb is used when John sees the seal horsemen. Rev 6:1

I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals.
Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, ‘Come!’ ἔρχομαι (erchomai)

BibleHub shows this form instead: Erchou COME! (imperative / command--like saying "YOU, COME!) - Revelation 6:1 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) , rather than the form *you* are showing, here.

I do believe there's a distinction.

IOW, Rev19:7 is stating a fact. Rev6:1 is issuing a command to someone. [same G2064 word, but differing forms, for differing usages / occurrences]

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yes, all of this is correct and proper exegesis.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

All of this is describing the great trib and it is when the saints are persecuted by and his people. The wrath of comes at 7th trump and the great trib ends when the 6th trump is finished.

Scripture says that it is the seven bowl judgments that finish God's wrath.

"Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them (the seven bowls) the wrath of God is complete."

Therefore, the wrath of God is completed after the 7th bowl has been poured out and not at the 7th trumpet. Jesus will not return to the earth to end the age until all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments have taken place.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Well said and those are some really good supplemental verses that prove beyond a doubt the great trib is not from God, but rather from the devil and his people.

The entire seven years, which includes the great tribulation, is the wrath of God. It is the Lamb who will be unleashing all of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, not Satan. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will accomplish the following Day of the Lord prophecy:

===============================================

I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth,” declares the LORD.

“I will sweep away man and beast;

I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, and the rubble with the wicked.

I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth,” declares the LORD. - Zeph.1:1-2

=============================================

See, the day of the Lord is coming

—a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger—

to make the land desolate

and destroy the sinners within it.

The stars of heaven and their constellations

will not show their light.

The rising sun will be darkened

and the moon will not give its light.

I will punish the world for its evil,

the wicked for their sins.

I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty

and will humble the pride of the ruthless.

I will make people scarcer than pure gold,

more rare than the gold of Ophir.

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble;

and the earth will shake from its place

at the wrath of the Lord Almighty,

in the day of his burning anger.

==================================================

The above will all be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Satan may become angry in the midst of the Day of the Lord, but it is God's wrath, not Satan's.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

As I've pointed out... the form of that verb in this verse is not how you ^ are showing it. Instead it is this:

" ἦλθεν ēlthen " - [G2064] - Revelation 19:7 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)

...which is why I provided the link showing the 90x (I think... out of 637x total occurrences) that this form of the word is used:

Greek Concordance: ἦλθεν (ēlthen) -- 90 Occurrences (biblehub.com)

... and I pointed out a couple of examples (using "CAME" -- like Matt12:42 re: the queen of Sheba - "she CAME" - same form of this word... but not the same form *you* are showing of this verb in your quote above, see)

Here's another example I found ("elthen" - ηλθεν ) [third word in this sentence - "CAME"] - Galatians 4:4 TR1550MR - οτε δε ηλθεν το… | Biblia


[quoted from one version, for example]

"Literal Standard Version
"and when the fullness of time came, God sent forth His Son, come of a woman, come under law"

(which is speaking of a thing PRIOR TO this particular writing/speaking of it, right?)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Trying to make "bride" a one person deal is error.the guests are the bride / wife / guests.

The text in Rev19 (vv.7 and 9) actually are shown this specific differentiation... v.7 "singular" v.9 "plural" (within the same CONTEXT, but clearly distinguishing them).

I realize you do not agree... but "pre-tribbers" who present these things the way you are, actually hinder ppl from seeing the facts of the "pre-trib rapture," sorry to say.

And there are not "multiple RAPTURES" as you have suggested in the past (not so much lately).

Daniel was told he would be resurrected "at the END of the days" (at the END of the very specific "days" referenced in THAT CONTEXT, i.e. at the END of the trib... he was NOT promised "RAPTURE," however. )

The ending day of David was he in bed with a virgin ( obviously not a " legal/formal "wife")
That is the type of the bride of Christ.

Well, the end of verse 4 becomes problematic for your viewpoint...

1 Kings 1:1-4 (note the end of verse 4, esp in the kjv) -

Berean Study Bible
The girl was unsurpassed in beauty; she cared for the king and served him, but he had no relations with her.

King James Bible
And the damsel was very fair, and cherished the king, and ministered to him: but the king knew her not.

New King James Version
The young woman was very lovely; and she cared for the king, and served him; but the king did not know her.

New American Standard Bible
The girl was very beautiful; and she became the king’s nurse and served him, but the king did not become intimate with her.

NASB 1995
The girl was very beautiful; and she became the king's nurse and served him, but the king did not cohabit with her.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The girl was of unsurpassed beauty, and she became the king's caregiver. She served him, but he was not intimate with her.

Good News Translation
She was very beautiful, and waited on the king and took care of him, but he did not have intercourse with her.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The woman was very beautiful. She became the king's servant and took care of him, but the king did not make love to her.

International Standard Version
The young woman was absolutely beautiful. She served the king and was very useful to him. The king was not sexually involved with her.

Literal Standard Version
and the young woman [is] very, very beautiful, and she is a companion to the king, and serves him, and the king has not known her.

NET Bible
The young woman was very beautiful; she became the king's nurse and served him, but the king did not have sexual relations with her.

World English Bible
The young lady was very beautiful; and she cherished the king, and ministered to him; but the king didn't know her intimately.

Young's Literal Translation
and the young woman is very very fair, and she is to the king a companion, and serveth him, and the king hath not known her.

- 1 Kings 1:4 The girl was unsurpassed in beauty; she cared for the king and served him, but he had no relations with her. (biblehub.com)

___________

It seems the text goes out of its way to ensure the reader knows she was not there for the "purpose" of being his "wife" (but more like a "caregiver" role for his "end of life" needs... not "marital").

 

[cv5]

Well said and those are some really good supplemental verses that prove beyond a doubt the great trib is not from God, but rather from the devil and his people.

It's pretty difficult to be 100% wrong 100% of the time.......but you are getting there!

 

[ewq1938]

It's pretty difficult to be 100% wrong 100% of the time.......but you are getting there!

That doesn't really have same meaning coming from someone who has been there a long time.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Recall what I said about those of "Christendom" (the segment of those who "come in His name," but who were not actually saved--these did NOT go in the Rapture)... now "picture that" for a minute, if you can... these "self-professed Christians" [tho never having trusted in Christ for salvation] are still on the earth at the start of the trib years:


[...if it were, say, (hypothetically) 20% of the population remaining on earth... ]

--they deluded-ly *think* that "what just happened" [actually "our Rapture" event] WAS the judgment ("TARES" being removed)

--they deluded-ly do NOT think there are "7 more years" till their "reward" for all their good works by which they wrongly-believe they have *earned their salvation* (instead, they think their "rewards" are coming any time soon... because "[said to angels] gather ye FIRST the TARES" happens first [in their improper "application" of this passage], so therefore their "reward" is NEXT in line!)

You're still failing to explain how it is that what happened in Noah's day compares to your Jesuit Futurist end times scenario:

In Noah's day, the people were so oblivious to the imminent judgment of God that they didn't even realize they were already lost seven days before the first rain drops began to fall.

In Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism, not only will the so called "secret rapture" leave undeniable evidence of the truth of God's Word lying all over the planet, but they'll be able to pin point the exact moment when Jesus returns in Judgment 7 years later.

If your Jesuit Futurist ideas are true, there ought to be a simple explanation to this challenge that doesn't require a sliderule and abacus to comprehend it.

 

[Runningman]

The 6th seal and the event of Matt.24:29 though similar, are two different events.

6th Seal = A great earthquake that stir the mountains and islands, the sun darkened like goat hair, the moon turned blood red.

Matt.24:29 = The sun and moon darkened and the stars falling from heaven to the earth.

Therefore, as stated, though these are similar, they are not the same event. Here is another problem: When the event of Matt.24:29 takes place with the sun and moon being darkened, it is immediately followed by the Lord returning to the earth to end the age. Therefore, there would be no time for the 7th seal, the seven trumpets and the seven bowls to follow the sun and moon being darkened in Matt.24:29 before the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.



The next event that must take place is the gathering of the church. Following that will be the fulfillment of the last seven years of the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. So, everything that takes place after the church is gathered is the time of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues brought by the two witnesses. Everything that takes place during that time falls under the wrath of God, including the beasts kingdom and the great tribulation. It will all be God's wrath, also known as 'The Day of the Lord.'



That this is Satan's wrath is also a false teaching that has crept into the church. Though Satan gets angry after he finds himself cast to the earth, it is during the time of God's wrath that this takes place. The entire period is the long prophesied time of God's wrath. Just because Satan gets angry during that time, does not make it the wrath of Satan.



You need to go and do a study on 'The Day of the Lord' because that is the time period of God's wrath, regardless of what the devil does during that time. All of those things mentioned above will be done according to God's Sovereign will and purpose, including the beasts reign, the false prophet, the image of the beast, his mark, etc. It is all apart of God's wrath.

You don't just get to say "they're different events" and it becomes so. I just showed you using scripture that they're the same event. It blows a hole in the pre-trib doctrine so you disregard it and look for a different explanation.

Jesus doesn't come until after the anti-Christ is revealed (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4) meaning that if Jesus won't return until after the "man of sin" (anti-Christ) is revealed then the great tribulation already happened. It's right there in the verses I gave you. This means the rapture is post-tribulation yet again.

It's all right there for you to read. I'm fully confident in my dividing of the word of truth. I have attempted to see what you are saying but I find it is inconsistent with scripture and impossible to digest.

The Day of the Lord is the return of Christ. That's all a study of the DOTL has revealed to me. What were you wanting me to see specifically?

 

[Phoneman-777]

I wouldn't say "every single pre-trib rapture futurist: has argued that particular point... though I readily admit it was a predominant viewpoint on that passage during the 70s (I know, I was there and was listening, lol). But not so much *before* and *after* the 70s, except amongst those clinging to that 70s-era interp. But... plz recognize the wider spans... not all "pre-tribbers" believed / believe that particular interpretation, amongst "pre-tribbers". Take a glance at the broader scope of those teaching/speaking on the topic, and you'll see that's not the exclusive viewpoint (but was popular in the 70s, as I said).

I used to have a list of scholars who are pre-trib, but present it the way I have... (if it wasn't stored in my old computer [now crashed], I can try to find that list and post it)



[sometimes those of other viewpoints make denigrating comments about our "pre-trib" beliefs (which are mostly just not accurate to our viewpoint), but then turn around and use those same "faulty ideas" to try and disprove our view--but that ain't the actual viewpoint, see! lol]



I've said for YEARS that I do not believe that at the time of our Rapture ['pre-trib'] that planes will fall out of the sky and cars will be crashing all over the place. No. (Of course, many looked at me as though I had two heads... thinking that this, if pre-trib is to be true, is the only REASONABLE assumption to be making. I think NOT.)

I've made a post not too long ago (which goes along with what I just said in a previous post here), explaining how I see the bold part of your thought, above ^ , ... sure they'll recognize that ppl are gone / missing / absent / no longer present... but bear in mind this is when 2Th2:10-12 comes into play ("God SHALL SEND TO THEM [to certain ones being spoken of, here] GREAT DELUSION, so that they should BELIEVE THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI..."--I've posted before about what I believe factors into that "belief" they [those certain ones] will come to embrace in/within/during those trib yrs [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"], I won't go into all that here...

...but it will be a time of GREAT DECEPTION; however, "the WISE will understand" and they will set about to "turn many to righteousness" in/during/within that future time-period; IOW, not all will believe the lie... many will be coming to faith in/with/during the trib yrs [following "our Rapture"] and the very event of "our Rapture," as I've said, will be a PRIMARY IMPETUS which helps many turn to Christ and faith in Him, during that future time period--These will be the two contrasting "beliefs" ppl will come to in/during/within those trib yrs [following "our Rapture"] which Paul is contrasting in his two chpts of 2Th1&2, where he uses the same two [related] phrases together in the same context [that the OT also referred to when used together in close proximity], to refer to the SAME [future] TIME-PERIOD)

Your view of "one taken/other left" is so minority, you could start a "Left Behind Lives Matter" movement. Your idea boils down to this: you claim the fulfillment of "one taken/other left" happens at the Second Coming - not at the "secret rapture" 7 years prior like 99 out of every 100 Jesuit Futurists.

The problem is this can't possibly be the case. Jesus said the people at His Second Coming would be exactly like the Antediluvians who were so ignorant of the imminent Judgment of God that at the moment He shut the Ark door, they didn't even realize they were already lost seven days prior to the first rain drops hitting the ground. According to your idea, everyone "left behind" will not only know for certain the Word of God is true, but will be able to pinpoint exactly when He returns in Judgment seven years after the "secret rapture".

There's simply nothing you or anyone can say to make what happened in Noah's day apply to your end time scenario, and frankly, it's embarrassing that you continue to insist otherwise rather than just give up and consider an alternative explanation.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You're still failing to explain how it is that what happened in Noah's day compares to your Jesuit Futurist end times scenario:

In Noah's day, the people were so oblivious to the imminent judgment of God that they didn't even realize they were already lost seven days before the first rain drops began to fall.

They were "lost [unsaved]" persons for the entire 120 years Noah was preparing the ark and being a preacher of righteousness... and they "disobeyed" all that long time... The word "knew" ("they knew not") is NOT defined as "they'd never heard a thing about it"... It's that they heard the warning / the Word of God via Noah, and DISREGARDED it... They were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage CLEAR UP TO the day Noah entered the ark, with no regard to the Word of God via Noah, the building of the ark, the parade of animals coming to Noah to board ship... they disregarded ALL THAT for MANY YEARS! (over a hundred years, most likely... coz 1Pet3:20 says "while the ark was preparing"... all that while they "apeithēsasin [G544 - a word that carries the meaning of "DISBELIEVED"]")

... the same thing that (for example) those who will witness the death of the "2W" (you probably don't believe they are literal "THESE TWO PROPHETS"), "they that dwell upon the earth" will "REJOICE OVER THEM" (that they've been killed) "and MAKE MERRY, and SHALL SEND GIFTS to one another"... at the time-frame of the "6th Trumpet events [when the "2nd Woe" will be just about to be announced as "past"--meaning the "1st Woe unto the earth" IS well-past--and THAT one's at MID-TRIB--3.5 years INTO this thing, already]"... so they're already FAR INTO THE TRIB and they are OBLIVIOUS of all the SIGNS that have already been blazing all around them, and "our Rapture" event that preceded ALL of that OVER 3.5 years EARLIER (which many will INCORRECTLY label as the "gather ye FIRST the TARES" as having happened, when they are only aware ppl have gone MISSING, that's it! [a wrong "application" of that passage, however])

In Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism, not only will the so called "secret rapture" leave undeniable evidence of the truth of God's Word lying all over the planet, but they'll be able to pin point the exact moment when Jesus returns in Judgment 7 years later.

Ppl that DISREGARD God's Word (via any form it's presented) WILL NOT be aware, *because* they "DISBELIEVE" and thus will not give a hoot about "counting down to the end / to His "RETURN" [which they will not even BELIEVE IN]" !! (ONLY "the RIGHTEOUS" / "the WISE" will heed God's Word, at that time--why are you expecting "the WICKED" [also the "ye CURSED" Jesus will call them] to concern themselves with such a thing, when they will NOT BELIEVE IT, "just as in Noah's day"--ONLY NOAH [and crew] "knew" AND PREPARED... no one else BELIEVED the Word of God via Noah / the warning... again, "KNEW" does NOT mean they'd NEVER HEARD... NO. Doesn't mean that!)

If your Jesuit Futurist ideas are true, there ought to be a simple explanation to this challenge that doesn't require a sliderule and abacus to comprehend it.

I think you're hung up on a fictional version of things that someone has presented to you, and you can't seem to move past it. Like a mental block.

The SAME WORD is used here:

[G1097] - John 10:6 - John 10:6 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)

https://biblehub.com/text/john/10-6.htm

"Jesus spoke to them this allegory, but they did not know [G1097] what it was that He was saying to them."

The word does not mean they'd never heard a thing about it... just that in their disbelieving (meaning, those back in Noah's day--the Word of God via Noah) it had no impact on their own preparation, because they disregarded the Word of God via Noah... thus they perished in the flood ("and took them all away"... in judgment).

[Lk17:27,29 "and destroyed them ALL" is NOT what takes place following "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]," but what takes place at the time of His Second Coming to the earth--but they (certain ones, not all!) will NOT BELIEVE He is coming, see... so why would ppl who DON'T BELIEVE be "counting the days"?? They'll be mocking those who WILL BE and who DO KNOW (at that time)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Your view of "one taken/other left" is so minority, you could start a "Left Behind Lives Matter" movement. Your idea boils down to this: you claim the fulfillment of "one taken/other left" happens at the Second Coming - not at the "secret rapture" 7 years prior like 99 out of every 100 Jesuit Futurists.

No, I think you're head has been in the sand, so that you are unaware of the multitudes of scholars who agree that ALL of Matthew 24 is about events FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (what I'm saying)

The problem is this can't possibly be the case. Jesus said the people at His Second Coming would be exactly like the Antediluvians who were so ignorant of the imminent Judgment of God that at the moment He shut the Ark door, they didn't even realize they were already lost seven days prior to the first rain drops hitting the ground. According to your idea, everyone "left behind" will not only know for certain the Word of God is true, but will be able to pinpoint exactly when He returns in Judgment seven years after the "secret rapture".

There's simply nothing you or anyone can say to make what happened in Noah's day apply to your end time scenario, and frankly, it's embarrassing that you continue to insist otherwise rather than just give up and consider an alternative explanation.

Paul, in his TWO CHPTS (CONTEXT) of 2Th1&2 is telling of the TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" ppl will come to embrace FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (i.e. in the LEAD UP to His "RETURN" to the earth / 2nd Coming to the earth [that TIME-PERIOD, tho not all will believe they're IN SUCH ])... Scripture, whenever it uses these two phrases in close proximity, ALWAYS refers to the SAME TIME PERIOD, and Paul here uses BOTH in this wider CONTEXT: "the Day of the Lord = IN THAT DAY" (as also in this CONTEXT). It refers to the Trib years (the "IN THE NIGHT" time period when the "man of sin" will be present to DO ALL he is slated to DO over those 7 years... from SEAL #1 to Rev19--the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 speaks of, as do a cpl other passages I've pointed out, using that phrase)

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

you're

EDIT: should read "your" lol



[<---one tired dude!]

 

[Phoneman-777]

The theme of Israel passing THROUGH wrath divinely protected is clearly and undeniably represented in Scripture. But as is the case with so many PROFESSING Christ today (IMO doomed to go through the Tribulation) you have no idea of the difference between the Church and Israel.

Sorry about your luck fella I really am. And trust me when I tell you the time is near at the very doorstep.

Please, let's not confuse "the time of trouble" aka what you Jesuit Futurists call "the tribulation" which is the wrath of men against Christians....with the 7 Last Plagues which is "the wrath of God" against the wicked.

For some reason, you guys have concluded that in the last days, God is going to flip the script. He'd allowed Christians to suffer all throughout church history, but for some reason He's got to sneak into town and sneak out with the saints while the wrath of the Papal Antichrist is poured out upon the world. Make no mistake, God is not going to flip the script. What God will do is protect His people when probation for mankind closes and He pours out His wrath upon the wicked via the 7 Last Plagues "without mixture", after which will follow the blessed hope of the Second Coming.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Notice how what Paul addresses to "the Church which is His body," is DISTINCT from what Jesus addressed via His Olivet Discourse (to the "proleptic 'you'" of that Olivet Discourse passage):


Notice in the following passage I'm always pointing out... see how verses 6 and 10 have the SAME GREEK WORDS [same 2 Grk words]

1 Thessalonians 5:6-11 -

6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others,

but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.

7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.

8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet, the hope of salvation,

9 because God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 the One having died for us,

so that whether we might watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen]

OR whether we might sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen],

we may live together with [G4862 - syn - 'unioned-with'/'identified-with'] Him.

11 Therefore encourage one another and build up one another, just as also you are doing.



...note that THIS [Grk word for] "sleep" is an altogether distinct Grk word from the "sleep [G2837 - koimōmenōn / koimēthentas] of the PREVIOUS CHPT in 1 Thessalonians 4:13,14,15 (speaking of "the dead in Christ" of v.16).

1Th5:6,10 is not speaking of being "asleep" in death, like the previous chpt is.



So this passage is saying that "whether we may watch, OR whether we may sleep" (same context as what v.6 is speaking about)...

...which is distinct from what certain passages are stating in the Olivet Discourse, for example, and other related passages...

(like Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 "when he will RETURN from the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]... [which is also not a "Rapture" passage]... and its parallel passage in Matt24... etc)



[recall that in these two Thessalonian epistles, Paul is covering the Subject of an "eschatological salvation"]

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Well said and those are some really good supplemental verses that prove beyond a doubt the great trib is not from God, but rather from the devil and his people.

If the tribulation was the wrath of God it would have been titled- The Great Wrath.