Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

[KingdomBrat]

The vast majority of Christians wrongly exegete Luke 21. This failure gives birth to some of the greatest errors of end time eschatology.

I specifically used Luke because he [outlines] it "all (70 A.D. and Great Tribulation + Second Coming) in a few short number of Verses. Luke is [direct] to the gist of what is happening here.
1) 70 A.D.
2) Great Tribulation
3) Second Coming

He includes everything we need to know here. And what he does prove, no removal of Believers from 70 A.D. to Second Coming.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

 

[cv5]

I disagree, and here's why.

The "2W's 1260 days" STRADDLE the two halves.


The "2W" ascend up in to heaven at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" (the END of their "1260 days" of testimony), at a time-slot distinct from all others.



I do not believe it is the case that the Holy Spirit is entirely absent from the earth during the trib yrs (or even just the SECOND HALF); it's that His "RESTRAINING ROLE" is removed/lifted (and that is at the START of the 7-trib yrs [2Th2:8a,9a], not at its MID-point [2Th2:4], as many suppose. )

"The MID-point (of the 7-trib-yrs) is at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" (not at the "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe," as some suppose)."

I'm trying to find distinctives that would tell me this is the 42 month mid-point. I am having a tough time. Please let me know what your thoughts are.

 

[Truth7t7]

I specifically used Luke because he [outlines] it "all (70 A.D. and Great Tribulation + Second Coming) in a few short number of Verses. Luke is [direct] to the gist of what is happening here.
1) 70 A.D.
2) Great Tribulation
3) Second Coming

He includes everything we need to know here. And what he does prove, no removal of Believers from 70 A.D. to Second Coming.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

1. Do you believe the great tribulation took place in 70AD Jerusalem Seige by the Romans

2. Do you believe in a future second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens?

 

[Truth7t7]

"The MID-point (of the 7-trib-yrs) is at the "5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth" (not at the "7th Trumpet/3rd Woe," as some suppose)."

I'm trying to find distinctives that would tell me this is the 42 month mid-point. I am having a tough time. Please let me know what your thoughts are.

Gods word defines 42 months, 1260 days, time, time, half time or 3.5 years

No place in scripture is a 7 year tribulation mentioned, no place

 

[cv5]

Once again another reference to the five foolish, I assume. Do you believe that those foolish was or even had another chance to be saved seeing it was the end? In my opinion, they were lost. They weren't saved. They didn't have any oil in their vessels. Didn't have any chance at repentance that I can see in the scripture because it was too late. The door had been shut unto them and he said he didn't even know them.

To me, the moral of the parable is to be prepared and ready because when the Lord comes back it is going to be for judgement. When he comes back and takes his children home and shuts the door it is the end.

I really am asking because I have never considered there was any hope for the five foolish? Just like the man with the talent in the next parable he wasted it and when he was judged, that was it. He never really trusted in the Lord and wasn't saved. He was judged because it was the end. He had no other chances then.

Agree.......there is a lot of reason to believe that denying and delaying is fatal. It may well be that tribulation saints are new converts who have never had the gospel presented to them in any meaningful way.

2 Thess 2:9-11
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

 

[KingdomBrat]

1. Do you believe the great tribulation took place in 70AD Jerusalem Seige by the Romans

2. Do you believe in a future second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens?

LOL NO!
I am not a member of the preterism ideology.

70 A.D. had to happen.
The spreading of the Jews and destroying the Temple ended the Old Covenant and [birthed] the New Covenant (the Gospel of Christ)(era of the Gentiles).
We see where this takes place in the first couple verses I pasted from Luke.

Then it goes directly to the [End of the Gentile](which is the fulfillment of the Second Covenant) and we go into Great Tribulation.

And then we clearly see in the final Verses the Second Coming of Christ.


Nowhere do we see where people are removed that should be so noticeable to be "mentioned."

 

[cv5]

I specifically used Luke because he [outlines] it "all (70 A.D. and Great Tribulation + Second Coming) in a few short number of Verses. Luke is [direct] to the gist of what is happening here.
1) 70 A.D.
2) Great Tribulation
3) Second Coming

He includes everything we need to know here. And what he does prove, no removal of Believers from 70 A.D. to Second Coming.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

The Church per se is not referred to in any way in Luke 21 (or Matthew 24 or Mark 13). So of course there is nothing said about the miraculous supernatural removal of believers.

Historically the Christians DID heed the Luke 21 70AD warning and fled Jerusalem. But this has nothing to do with the Rapture of course.

 

[cv5]

There will be no pre-trib rapture, a false teaching of John N. Darby and promoted by Adulterer C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible

The church will be present on earth as the (Two Witnesses) bring plagues of judgement upon the antichrist and unsaved world, a Remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, the (Sealed) Church is divinely protected on earth

My Lord Jesus Christ returns immediately after the great tribulation

1. Resurrection of all
2. Catching up of the living in Christ
3. Final fire in Judgement, dissolving the heavens and earth by fire, as the New Heavens, Earth, Jerusalem are revealed in (The Twinkling Of And Eye) for the righteous saved,

4. The unsaved wicked are caught in the lake of Gods fire in judgement

There will be no Millennium on Earth after Jesus Christ returns, its fire time

Sorry I don't see any Scriptural support for your position. And I mean zero support.

 

[KingdomBrat]

The Church per se is not referred to in any way in Luke 21 (or Matthew 24 or Mark 13). So of course there is nothing said about the miraculous supernatural removal of believers.

Historically the Christians DID heed the Luke 21 70AD warning and fled Jerusalem. But this has nothing to do with the Rapture of course.

I understand the [Church] is not mentioned.

But Luke mentions 70 A.D., Great Tribulation, Second Coming.
Something like a [Rapture] would be BIGGER than and as [noticeable on the grand scheme of things] as at least 2 Events mentioned here. So, if it were a fact to happen pre/mid, that would be listed right here.

 

[cv5]

LOL NO!
I am not a member of the preterism ideology.

70 A.D. had to happen.
The spreading of the Jews and destroying the Temple ended the Old Covenant and [birthed] the New Covenant (the Gospel of Christ)(era of the Gentiles).
We see where this takes place in the first couple verses I pasted from Luke.

Then it goes directly to the [End of the Gentile](which is the fulfillment of the Second Covenant) and we go into Great Tribulation.

And then we clearly see in the final Verses the Second Coming of Christ.


Nowhere do we see where people are removed that should be so noticeable to be "mentioned."

You say 70 A.D. is what ended the Old Covenant? That is absolutely incorrect. Find out when the New Covenant was first announced. Then find out when it was executed. Then find out Who activated it and enabled it and precisely when.

 

[cv5]

I understand the [Church] is not mentioned.

But Luke mentions 70 A.D., Great Tribulation, Second Coming.
Something like a [Rapture] would be BIGGER than and as [noticeable on the grand scheme of things] as at least 2 Events mentioned here. So, if it were a fact to happen pre/mid, that would be listed right here.

Absolutely incorrect read Ephesians ch 3. Those three accounts relate to Daniel ch 9. Which only relate to Israel. Absolutely positively no reference to the Church there. None zero nada. Not the slightest hint.

 

[KingdomBrat]

You say 70 A.D. is what ended the Old Covenant? That is absolutely incorrect. Find out when the New Covenant was first announced. Then find out when it was executed. Then find out Who activated it and enabled it and precisely when.

We know from the Ascension of Christ the Jews tried to quiet and shut down the Apostles. The Jews were trying to stop the new way of thinking and wanted the Apostles to shut up. Ultimately, 70 A.D. ended that opposition. That is why JESUS through Luke is saying the Gentiles begin. It was the Gospel to the Gentiles and entire world that ultimately exploded onto every scene from there on.

 

[KingdomBrat]

Absolutely incorrect read Ephesians ch 3. Those three accounts relate to Daniel ch 9. Which only relate to Israel. Absolutely positively no reference to the Church there. None zero nada. Not the slightest hint.

I like the Words of Christ on this matter over Paul's. Paul is correct, but Paul's Rapture has always been about the Second Coming. Christ would never be [double minded].

 

[Truth7t7]

We know from the Ascension of Christ the Jews tried to quiet and shut down the Apostles. The Jews were trying to stop the new way of thinking and wanted the Apostles to shut up. Ultimately, 70 A.D. ended that opposition. That is why JESUS through Luke is saying the Gentiles begin. It was the Gospel to the Gentiles and entire world that ultimately exploded onto every scene from there on.

It's my belief the Law in ordinances etc was abolished at the Death, Burial, Resurrection of Jesus Christ, the New Testament in his Blood

 

[KingdomBrat]

It's my belief the Law in ordinances etc was abolished at the Death, Burial, Resurrection of Jesus Christ, the New Testament in his Blood

Amen!

Christ did the work.
But ultimately, when we put the puzzle together in how God made it happen from Spiritually to physically, we see the stronghold the LAW had as long as the TEMPLE existed. By saying, [70 A.D.] I am saying the Temple being destroyed also destroyed the physical impact the LAW had on the Jews. If No Temple, where is God at now, to the Jew? God was welcoming in the rest of world with His New Covenant.

 

[1ofthem]

Even through the tribulation, the Lord gives people a chance to repent. But once Jesus returns it will be for judgement. He is not taking anyone away until the end, unless we die before that time. I actually hope I am one that dies in the Lord before that time.

Rev. 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The tribulation will be a testing time. Do we have oil in our vessels? Are we prepared to stand with our hope and faith in Jesus through the darkness of those days? Have we truly put our faith in Jesus so that we are able to withstand the tribulation of that evil time that will be brought on by the enemy? If we do not have faith in Jesus to take us through those times, then were we ever truly saved? It is easy to say we trust in God when times are good, but when trouble comes that is when our faith is put to the test.

Agree.......there is a lot of reason to believe that denying and delaying is fatal. It may well be that tribulation saints are new converts who have never had the gospel presented to them in any meaningful way.

2 Thess 2:9-11
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

 

[Truth7t7]

Amen!

Christ did the work.
But ultimately, when we put the puzzle together in how God made it happen from Spiritually to physically, we see the stronghold the LAW had as long as the TEMPLE existed. By saying, [70 A.D.] I am saying the Temple being destroyed also destroyed the physical impact the LAW had on the Jews. If No Temple, where is God at now, to the Jew? God was welcoming in the rest of world with His New Covenant.

I disagree, when Jesus Christ died and yielded up the Holy Ghost, the veil in the temple was rent, temple and service "Gone"!

Your explanation of 70AD and a literal destruction has no relevance, the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed at the Lords death, "Gone"

Dont be caught as a Pharisee looking at a literal physical temple, it was the temple of his body as clearly shown below

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

[cv5]

I like the Words of Christ on this matter over Paul's. Paul is correct, but Paul's Rapture has always been about the Second Coming. Christ would never be [double minded].

Christ is NOT speaking in any way whatsoever to the Rapture in Matthew 24 Luke 21 or Mark 13.
The Rapture precedes the Second Coming. In fact the removal of the Church to a place of rest of comfort of protection in the Father's house prepared for them by their Redeemer and Husband the Lord Jesus Christ is THE precursory event which ALLOWS for the 70th week of Daniel & the Second Coming to occur. It is only AFTER the Rapture of the restraining Hand of the Holy Spirit is removed, allowing for the advent of the antichrist.

My friend all of this is clear-cut and undeniable. I really don't understand what the debate is all about. A few more years of studing will yield the truth to you. As of now you are all mixed up. Which is obvious because you keep using Matthew 24 Luke 21 as a reference to the Rapture.
Which error is extremely common in the Church today. Blame the pastors they are a mess in this day and age. I was forced to leave the last Church I attended because the pastor was hopeless and clueless about eschatology. He had absolutely no idea what he was talking about and he was a closet amillennialist. He just would not admit it publicly. Which made him a deceiver....another reason to leave.

 

[cv5]

We know from the Ascension of Christ the Jews tried to quiet and shut down the Apostles. The Jews were trying to stop the new way of thinking and wanted the Apostles to shut up. Ultimately, 70 A.D. ended that opposition. That is why JESUS through Luke is saying the Gentiles begin. It was the Gospel to the Gentiles and entire world that ultimately exploded onto every scene from there on.

You are a mixed up kid at this point. Keep at it and give it time.

 

[Truth7t7]

Christ is NOT speaking in any way whatsoever to the Rapture in Matthew 24 Luke 21 or Mark 13.
The Rapture precedes the Second Coming. In fact the removal of the Church to a place of rest of comfort of protection in the Father's house prepared for them by their Redeemer and Husband the Lord Jesus Christ is THE precursory event which ALLOWS for the 70th week of Daniel & the Second Coming to occur. It is only AFTER the Rapture of the restraining Hand of the Holy Spirit is removed, allowing for the advent of the antichrist.

My friend all of this is clear-cut and undeniable. I really don't understand what the debate is all about. A few more years of studing will yield the truth to you. As of now you are all mixed up. Which is obvious because you keep using Matthew 24 Luke 21 as a reference to the Rapture.
Which error is extremely common in the Church today. Blame the pastors they are a mess in this day and age. I was forced to leave the last Church I attended because the pastor was hopeless and clueless about eschatology. He had absolutely no idea what he was talking about and he was a closet amillennialist. He just would not admit it publicly. Which made him a deceiver....another reason to leave.

No the Resurrection and Catching up (Does Not) precede the Second Coming,

More fake news from John N. Darby, And Adulterer C. I. Scofield in (Dispensationalism)

The main scripture used by supporters of this teaching is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a Pre-Trib rapture.

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.