Let's talk about god

Karaka · Apr 19, 2016

Magenta

See my post #15. I addressed this already! Even if you are only attempting to say that it cannot
be known whether or not absolutes exist, you are making a self contradictory statement.
And the fact still remains: God as an absolute, absolutely wants you to know Him

Have you paid any attention to what I wrote Magenta? It doesn't sound like it. What you are talking about is the relativist position. I am not a relativist. After I took all this time to explain it, I find it a bit despiriting that you don't get that basic thing about my position...
Go back to post #169, and you'll see that I said absolute truths most likely exists, I do believe they do in fact, as ideals. And what you don't get in what I'm saying, is that absolute knowledge of those absolute truths does not seem achievable. I am not making an absolute statement to refute that there are absolutes, that's not it. I'm saying our knowledge about those absolutes is at best provisional. Is that clearer ?

And I don't want to sound presumptuous but if you think that idea is preposterous, then you don't know much about philosophy. It is not just me saying it, it is the accepted conclusion of modern philosophy... you appologists and born again christians are at odd with what science and philosophy have to say on the subject, I'm not making this up. Check it for yourself.

And that's the problem we have here, you born again christians take for granted that you can positively "know" something by revelation and faith, while I find, while science and philosophy finds, that faith as an epistemology is not reliable. Through faith you can claim absolute belief but not absolute knowledge. And they are not the same thing.

And this happens to be relevant to this thread because i started it and my aim in doing so was to get questions anwsered. This is the main issue I have for now in my inquiry as to whether God exists, because I think I got the point that unless you accept faith as an epistemology, which I don't, you cannot "know" God. You all have repeated that enough times to me, haven't you ?

So you what i understand you are telling me is that arguments and evidence is secondary to faith as a way to know God.

Is that correct?

I'd like to talk about this only please.

I will quickly respond to some of the other questions, but I really do not want to get dragged into a debate about the Kalam argument or god forbid, evolution with you people, because, on those topics my confidence is pretty high and it will turn into a shooting match filled with condescension for sure... so let's keep the friendly tone, I am genuinely interested by the topic of faith as an epistemology... you guys live it and I want to investigate it.

can we do that?

For all those who answered to some of my previous question, Iacknowledge the answer, they make things a bit clearer for me (sometimes... beyondET, i really didn't get your drift in your last post... Tintin, you never explain what you meant either). If i don't mention them it is because from now on I won't be exploring in those direction for a while, I'd rather focus on the more central question epistemology.

A quick response to aristocrat though, I was obviously refering to the more important discrepancies in the various accounts of the resurection, not merely to the color of the robe, such as the ones found here for example : Contradictions in the Resurrection Account although my original source was a much more serious book about the subject. If you don't trust the website, go check for yourself. It is correct, I checked.

Depleted, thanks for paring off the « prove God doesn't exists » question for me, that one annoys me more than most other vapid retorts... let's keep the level up.

Robomango, thanks for answering but in case that wasn't clear i wasn't asking about evolution or the big bang, which I'm fully aware you guys distrust, I was asking specifically what would make you doubt about JESUS.
Here is the exact question I asked, I'd still would like an answer, thank you :

Is there something you can conceive which would make you change your mind about Jesus?

Word_Swordsman · Apr 19, 2016

I remember well the first day of my first trigonometry class. I had to begin memorizing a list of formulas that none of us understood as to how they were derived, or how we might explain them. We had to take them by faith, so to speak. Knowing those facts we learned how to solve trig problems by applying them, better understanding the end results (solutions) by proving those formulas were true. Over time it became easier to "know" the nature of those formulas, then marvel over those facts that began in us by faith, not by understanding.

God was not nor is obligated to prove his own existence, being on record as doing that anyway many times in scriptures. I wasn't present when he parted the sea in Exodus, but take the fact of that by faith. I embraced the facts of scripture well before knowing the author. When he became "real" to me I recognized him. That's the way he requires us to know him, without seeing him, or understanding his mind.

"Science" has been through a series of reconstruction all through the existence of it. I was taught the latest foundations of evolution in the 1960's that remain an embarrassment to modern evolutionists, knowing about the many hoaxes and blunders of that philosophy. I've had to spit out a lot of falsehood. All philosophy invented by man is debatable in the same manner, the scriptures warning us of "vain philosophies" which tend to cause "stinkin' thinkin' among those who value men's advice above God's word. All the above changes annually, while the scriptures never change.

The Bible is not opposed to true science fact, but stands in the way of man's perversion of truth, choosing ignorance. Billions of people will find themselves having missed the mark with God, who insist on defining their own terms of knowing God.

Magenta · Apr 19, 2016

Karaka said:

Post 168 and 169 are both very long posts. Remember what I said to you about big long posts? Neither were addressed to me. So no, I do not read most long posts if they do not engage me right away. Both posts I made were IF responses. IF you are saying this... then I am saying that.

No, I am not interested in the philosophies of philosophers and scientists so much, they sometimes engage in a lot of wool gathering and present it as sound hypothesies (the multiverse?). Some of it may have interested me when I was younger and not Christian but now I just don't want to be bothered with such. I am a Christian on a Christian website, here to talk about the Word of God, both written and revealed (Scripture), and Living (Jesus Christ)... and how you can come to know Him. Will you read the gospel of John? Will you watch the word for word rendition of the gospel presented in movie format? Will you meditate on God's Word, and hide it in your heart? Will you ponder the deep things of God? You may have made a good start, but where will you end up? We already know you have your reasons for being opposed to faith and God. We all did. Will you overcome them? Will you allow Jesus a foothold in your life?

If you can't know anything absolutely then what is the point? Do you absolutely know that you absolutely exist? No? Sounds nihilistic. When God spoke to me, I knew it was God. Every fiber of my being knew. God's Word also says His sheep hear and know His voice. God's Word says we can know. Why would I believe you or some unknown philosophers and/or scientists above my own experiences, and the Word of God? What do your scientists and philosophers know? They are saying you can't know, and you are putting your faith in them. Hmmm. Why do they even think they have anything worthwhile to pass along?

Evidence is secondary to faith? I would not have faith if God had not given me evidence. Personal, empirical, first hand experience/knowledge. So I am not sure what evidence you refer to now, especially since I have already stated that many atheists come to belief through examining the evidence, whether Scripture, or history, or archaeology, etc. Who is not paying attention here? And I know someone already said this, but without faith it is impossible to please God

I am just about done.

Funny thing was I thought he was a reasonable guy until he showed his true colours LOL. But, I never said he was what you have called him. LOL

I want to compare this question to another, it would be like asking, is there anything that could convince you while you are alive and breathing that you are really dead and buried. I realize there are those who seemingly did at one time have faith and operated in it for years and maybe even decades and ended up walking away from it all and becoming a maltheist. To that, for me, I would say, please God, heaven forbid. There but for the grace of God go I. But there is always more to that story, and I could be wrong but I think those people were really religious but lost, the sort that are brought up in a particular religion and then think because of that that they have been born again of the Spirit of God. And now I think I am done. May God bless you and keep you, Karaka, and make His face to shine upon you. Amen!

B1Davanda · Apr 19, 2016

From karakar, Post#241:
Is there something you can conceive which would make you change your mind about Jesus?

No.

Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him. 'JOB'

These things are written
that you may KNOW you have eternal life. 'JOHN'

Depleted · Apr 19, 2016

To the believers on this thread,

Do understand this is nothing but a game for Karaka. He is what we all were at one time -- the man hiding in the darkness. (John 3:19-20) But he is much like the real life version of Saruman in LotR's, working hard at filling the world with darkness to increase his reach. And here is his goal:

Karaka said:

I'm taking this back to full reality of the real world now. (i.e. will try to refrain from more metaphors.) I married a Karaka after the Lord plucked him out of the darkness. (And that is not a metaphor, since sin is very real darkness.)

This is the game future-hubby played -- talk about God without ever hitting on if-God. He picked his approach by the easiest means -- something few believers work at truly knowing -- God's words. It is the oldest trick in the book, and again I mean that literally. Gen. 3:1 "Did God actually say?"

Let's face it. How many of us can not only quote the Bible but understand the context of that quote anywhere in the Bible? I can't, and I've been a Christian for 44 years. So it's a good trap. Future-hubby pulled Christians away from Christ often, until he met the woman who knew her Bible. Until he met her though, he pulled away those who merely thought they were Christians because they grew up in the Church. And he yanked off the bruised read and stomped out the faltering wick. It really worked because those people were naive and new to the faith, so they were unarmed for a battle of wits.

Just like Karaka's trap does work too. Talk about philosophy on his terms. If it's not his terms, suddenly he doesn't understand and has to take it back to his terms.

Has anyone found a crack in that defense yet? I've seen many attempts at taking it to his terms, but every time he slightly twists the terms just enough that he dismisses what you said.

He's out and out stated what he wants from us -- to doubt Jesus. What he doesn't say, and will never say but what he means, is he's dividing us. He's looking for the weak in faith to pull them away. Pull them away and there's a little more darkness in the world. That's the goal.

Does that mean you shouldn't play into his game? IDK! Seems to me he could use someone strong enough in his/her faith to know Christ will use him/her, but how many of us naturally assume we're the ones to step up to that plate? (And "naturally" is literal too, since the two choices are natural or supernature -- us or God.)

I do know this though. This monologue, (for it is a monologue since all Karaka has done so far is bait the ones he finds interesting and dismiss the ones that he doesn't find interesting -- he hasn't chosen anyone to do serious battle with. He's playing this same game on multiple boards so doesn't have time to go to a full battle, and that's on purpose too), will destroy the weak in faith. Future-hubby found a woman who knew her Bible so well, she could deflect his every swing to the point that they spent every evening together for three weeks duking it out. He'd use the verses in the Bible to convert people away from Christ simply because they didn't know how to disprove his take on those verses. She'd come back time and again to prove he truly didn't understand the context of the verse, so got the verse itself wrong. THREE weeks! Hours per night! And on that last night he drove home so angry the first inkling of a thought entered his mind -- how to kill her.

After all that, she never converted him. How can that be? Because he went to bed so angry as to start plotting her murder and then woke up fully believing. He made no decision on God. God made his decision on future-hubby.

Make your own decision on what to do here, but understand Karaka's game plan. He just stated it:

Karaka said:

But remember, there are bruised reeds and smoldering wicks. Is it worth breaking them to prove something to Karaka?

One last metaphor and I'm out of here -- Karaka doesn't want help unclogging a pipe. He wants to talk about hookah pipes and is hoping you won't notice. God is stronger than any pipe.

pottersclay · Apr 19, 2016

pottersclay said:

Kind of knew this from the beginning, same o same o......wisdom of men confounded by God's foolishness what will be do when God gets serious? Lol.

Depleted · Apr 19, 2016

pottersclay said:

You ole atheist you.

(Calling you an atheist made me chuckle more than once.)

blue_ladybug · Apr 19, 2016

People when there is profanity in a post such as #241, it helps if you don't requote it in your own reply. That makes it harder for the mods when they have to edit the original post, then go searching through subsequent posts to see if it was requoted elsewhere.

Depleted · Apr 19, 2016

blue_ladybug said:

Deja vu! We just had this discussion on another post yesterday. (Not a put down, since I was the one who said the same thing you just said. lol)

jandian · Apr 19, 2016

Dear Karaka,

It is really difficult for a Christian to explain an invisible to GOD to one who is governed by science. There isn't really anything we can say to convince you.

But GOD did put a desire to seek HIM in all of us, so that is your first evidence (though many ignore and stifle this desire);

It appears its science has not convinced you either.

But GOD has made the seen things of this world to reveal the unseen. And that's why it would be difficult for you to understand faith. Because you are governed by the seen. For us, that's like saying "I think a Ferrari is real awesome and it can do fantastic things on the road .......all hail the Ferrari, but at the end of the day...the Ferrari did not make itself. We may not ever see the designer or know his/her name, but we still know someone designed it.

But in your trend of thought you have eradicated this basic principle; by deciding nothing made everything, therefore you cannot see the existence of GOD; because your belief system (science) teaches you that there is nothing.

Interestingly it requires faith to believe that nothing made everything. Because it's not natural for nothing to make something. But that's another story.

If you are interested in finding GOD, genuinely talk to HIM yourself . If He doesn't exist what's the worse that could happen?! You go on believing that HE isn't without a second look in our direction. HE love you though and will keep trying.

BeyondET · Apr 19, 2016

Depleted said:

Thanks for posting,, I've been having the same thoughts, either the OP of thread is truly wanting answers to questions or like what was said trying to pull people away wooling over people's eyes or this is a game or a experiment of some kind, I'm not fully trusting right now in the intentions but I'll give people the benefit of doubt or I can even take a leap of faith in trusting and will sincerely can give my thoughts on his questions,, do I what to know you Karaka yes,,,do I want to know every person yes,,, can I probably not,,, do I care if anybody knows me NO,,, would I value if they do want to know me yes and through the roof for that matter.

but so far the OP of thread has no problem pissing on who lived many years ago named Jesus calling him a (sadist) which the OP of thread do you know the name (Yashawa) or only from what is written and from other people and scripture is only a short version of who he was.. Because first and for most his parents and friends and people who knew him in the flesh called him Yeshawa.. Jesus is a English translation of sort. Explaining the story of Yashawa in short order..and Yeshawa knows and hears in spirit this name Jesus as well for it is his name in English form, for its the after his flesh name so to speak and the name is apart of new language that wasn't around 2000 years ago..

Because Karaka you don't know me to group me in that post and say I distrust evolution or Big Bang theory because I don't distrust and some other people here at CC believe or feel as I do there's something more to it all. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that some people like to stay in a comfort zone some people like to reach for the stars. In my view it's ok either way.

Speaking of which I call the Big Bang (Big Ben) and evolution (production line) the big business which sure people can enjoy the products it produces hunting fish etc.. will it last no the flesh on your arm proved that,, for it to last one must buy into the business and purchase stock in the business and one would probably say how do I do this I have no money then I would say the stock is not payed for in monetary value it's in the trust and belief equals faith value. And that can be in just believing trusting and staying within what scripture teaches of coarse no doubt but and or reaching a little farther in other ways,, either way it's ok the point is to buy stock...

Stock can come from no scripture at all to including scripture one doesn't have to know every word of scripture to believe.
what scripture is,, is improving on knowledge and values of life.
a person can know the scriptures front to back and do all the right things values and all. But yet still don't have trust and belief equaling faith in a creator.

Karaka you don't understand huh I'm not so sure about that, you mentioned Love, creator, etc your a smart person I can tell so don't give me that bull hockey line..Go back to what I quoted in my first post and look in the middle about what you said.. Which shows me you know something and your here now asking questions so that in it self means two things either you do have alittle faith/belief in God say 00.1% a mustard seeds worth which is great no doubt because it's a start that can lead to 10% and so on. Or it's all just for fun. Now that you mentioned things of Gods nature you can't take that back and say no no no i have 0% belief or faith what I meant was referring to what scripture and people believe in... no you can't say that because thats cheese and wine talk.

JesusLives · Apr 19, 2016

Karaka said:

I asked Google what the most popular book is in the world?.... and the following is the answer....

The most read book in the world is the Bible. Writer James Chapman created a list of the most read books in the world based on the number of copies each book sold over the last 50 years. He found that the Bible far outsold any other book, with a whopping 3.9 billion copies sold over the last 50 years. Dec 27, 2012

So if nothing else I guess demand for the book makes it special....not to mention the content of the book.

garee · Apr 19, 2016

Hi Karaka

From another perspective..

It does not sound as you are being presumptuous, but more that you are defending the philosophies of men as if that was all that was available for knowing the unseen faith principle/law. .

Christians have no need to know about the multiple schools of philosophies of men. They are not necessary for knowing Christ, and neither can we now God through them .

We know Christ, the anointing Holy Spirit of God through His law of faith, as it works in us. (not a theory of men) we abide in Him as his Spirit witnesses to our new born again spirit. This is seeing if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, they simply do not belong to Him.

We do not now Christ after the private interpretations as commentaries of each other. They can be useful or can draw a person away from Christ; the promised teacher, comforter and guide.

This is whether we think we are defending His faith or as an atheist trying to make it without effect according to their own private faith that comes from their own imagination of the fleshly heart. .The sky is the limits for the atheists and philosophers... just believe your own heart. Making oneself the rule by which they measure faith( the unseen)

We, I believe know Him according to His interpretation, the scriptures, as they teach us we abide in Him.
The difference between the will or imagination of men (philosophies) and the perfect law of God ....which does quicken our souls giving us simply ones His understanding.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man

philosophies) but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:20

Those who philosophy in respect to empiricism, chase after the rudiments such as atoms and molecules that make up this world. They are at odds with the law of God .There simply is no understanding, nothing about God who remains without form by looking at that which is seen, as if we did know Christ in that way.

Christians understand or walk by the faith of God, and not of our own selves, as does the philosopher who must walks by sight (empiricism) .

He warns us of those who would try and make the scriptures without effect through the philosophies of men after empiricism..

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. (the Tradition of God )

A clear distinction must be made between the things of God (traditions) and those of men. Never do they become one source of faith.

It is there that the father of lies takes his stance as he tries to get his foot in the door of Christ’s church. Ultimately setting up the working of the anti-christ singular ( Satan)as he persuades men, the anti-christs (many).

B1Davanda · Apr 19, 2016

Karaoke:
Hi.

This verse doesn't HAVE to apply to you forever:

2 Timothy 3:13King James Version (KJV)

13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse,
deceiving, and being deceived.

Ask the Lord Jesus Christ to be your Savior...
He will, and then you have eternity with Him in His Kingdom,
to ask all the questions you want.

Otherwise, you'll get your answers in the end,
but it will be too late to receive salvation.
He has set before you this day life and death.
Choose life.
And, Father, we pray for this questioner to have the
ultimate answer, and that is YES TO JESUS.
Grant him the faith to believe as a gift, just as you did
for all of us who believe in Jesus, and then make him
someone who shares your truth, rather than deceiving
and being deceived and destroying himself.
Thank you, Lord Jesus, in your name we pray. Amen.

JesusLives · Apr 19, 2016

There is an enemy in the camp! What do I mean by that? You say where is the Black Swan? Well if you are not sure of God's existence then you won't believe in a devils existence either.... But I still say there is an enemy in the camp!!

There was harmony in heaven and everything was going smoothly until Lucifer got antsy and what caused this feeling? It started with pride at how beautiful he was and how special he was and then there was a little jealousy from his knowing of the closeness between Jesus and God the Father and Lucifer wanted to be equal with God, but there was a little problem.... Lucifer was a created being and God was the Creator.

Now there was turmoil in heaven and the harmony was gone....

Genesis chapter 1...... In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..... Lucifer better known now as Satan or the Devil..... deceived Eve into disobeying God and sin entered our world..... all the evil you can imagine now here on this planet... Satan is the Black Swan in this story.... oh, yes they are beautiful and sin is so very tempting and even fun for a time, but the pain and suffering it causes is not worth the fun/beauty that it falsely promotes.

God created us to have a free will and choose what course we would take.... God and His way to eternal life or Sin and the wages of death. But God in His mercy also gave us a way out.... Jesus Christ His Son to be our White Swan and take the punishment that all us sinful humans deserve..... God gave us a choice....and His gift of Jesus to accept the Salvation He offers....

Your questions have a simple answer and it is for you to make a decision on in faith which is:

~[h=1]Hebrews 11:1[/h]
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

I invite you to accept the Salvation through faith that God offers you. I truly hope you find the answers to your many questions.....Always remember that God loves you with an everlasting love and He has written you in the palms of His hands....

BeyondET · Apr 19, 2016

garee said:

Things aren't always what they seem so I wouldn't be to quick to pull the trigger on Philosohy for even parables are a type of Philosophy and speaking about men who said lets make man in our likeness? True man has had many issues throughout time but still we are made from his likeness have alittle respect shall we? Here's some Philosophy for ya is this no use to Christians?
I think it can,, it's your choice to look outside the box or stay in it but don't knock things over you know nothing about not all Philosphy is junk.

SECRET PARABLE OF WISDOM
An American philosopher, by the name of "Doc" sincerely was seeking the ultimate wisdom about the key to lifes meaning and purpose. Doc mastered most all relevant philosophies about life in general. Nonetheless, Doc felt the emptiness within because his quest was not finalized. Hopefully, Doc learned that there was an old wise hermit who lived in a cave on a mountaintop in Tibet. It was said that the hermit understood so very many of lifes mysteries. Doc traveled to Tibet and found the city at the bottom of the mountaintop. Doc found that he must climb the mountain by himself to prove that he was worthy. Doc had no choice but to struggle day by day toward the summit. After three days of climbing, Doc found the wise hermits cave. Doc respectfully entered and the hermit did great him rather graciously. The hermit asked if Doc brought along a gift to give thanks. Doc answered, " My God, I have nothing to give as a gift except what you see here." The hermit saw his torn clothes and his bleeding fingers and responded, "Your agony on the mountain honors me. Do you seek this agony or the ecstasy of truth?" Doc begged, "Please Master, say that you will answer my questions about lifes real and secret meanings. Can you reveal these truths?" The hermit mused, " The seeker should find." Doc sat on the ground in the cave and looked at the countenance of the hermit carefully. The hermits poverty was obvious, but then the hermit had more than money. Doc asked, "Kind Master, I have sought low and high to find a wise one. I wish to know the essentials of lifes secret and meaning for mankind. Can you reveal the true secret and meaning in life to me now?" The hermit uttered a single word, "Yes". Doc began to rejoice. The hermit answered, "You have asked me three questions in all. You seek to learn the meaning, the purpose, and the secret in life. I will answer these three questions." Doc was amazed already that the hermit was wise enough to recognize all three questions. The hermit began. The true meaning in life is to love the Creator and His creations. The purpose in life is to give joy to the Creator for His creations. The real secret in life is that there is no secret in life." Doc exclaimed, "Then how can it be that the secret is that there is no secret The hermit whispered, "The Creator knows His creations. Do you know the Creator?" Doc declared, "I believe that the Creator is He who made this mountaintop and blest it with wisdom! " The wise one only smiled and remembered that before creation was created, the Almighty firstly created Lady Wisdom. The hermit spoke, Lady Wisdom is the Bride of Truth who knows how to empower knowledge. He who stores knowledge can store grief. My Son, in this world, much love can bring much sorrow, sorrow never to do enough for the beloved Creator. Am I really a hermit alone in divine Love with my Bride and the beloved Spirit who loves to love Loves love to love? I give you, Doc, another gift to ponder onward to your home. Since the Almighty Creator God is everywhere, then why did you have to climb this summit only to find the Spirit already hidden in your heart? The nature of God is like unto a circle whose circumference is nowhere & whose center is everywhere! (Thus, Doc shed tears of joy!)

robbomango · Apr 19, 2016

jandian said:

The Religion of Naturalism, a faith based idea that things have made themselves is often labeled science these days. science is only a tool, my guess is his faith is in naturalism. I'm sure you know this most Christians do, it's unbelievers that can't see their own faith. It's just annoying hearing so man people run around saying they believe in science as evidence that there's unlikely to be a God but are really talking about naturalism. He's Just another person of faith like anyone else imo...

TheAristocat · Apr 19, 2016

Karaka said:

Just a quick response. I'd be surprised if you hadn't already encountered answers for these discrepancies, given the amount of Apologetics literature you have read. All or most of these questions are answered in some form. However, the author of the article you linked me to (and this is not your fault) says,

I believe the Oxford English Dictionary defines a contradiction as the following:

The author of the article then goes on to say that because Christians are right about how they use the English language, this somehow makes his point about there being contradictions in the Gospels valid. Does that make sense to you? It sure doesn't to me. And I'll use the Bible to illustrate my point about how an argument from silence does not equate to a contradiction or even damage the veracity of the Bible:

John 6:10 and Luke 9:14 record the number of men that Jesus fed as being 5,000 and do not record that number as being 4,000. In Matthew 14:21 Jesus fed 5,000, and in Matthew 15:38 Jesus fed 4,000. In Mark 6:44 Jesus fed 5,000, and in Mark 8:9 Jesus fed 4,000. Finally Mark 16:9-10 has Jesus saying, "Do you still not understand? Don't you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered? Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?"

Using the author's logic, the passages in John 6:10 and Luke 9:14 are contradictions, because they don't list the feeding of the 4,000 in those Gospels. An argument from silence has to be better supported than "it smells fishy." Pardon the pun. I don't think he'd get away with "It doesn't feel right, because these people believe in a sky-daddy" as being the thesis for a scholarly research paper. I'm pretty sure he'd be retaking that class next year.

Depleted · Apr 19, 2016

TheAristocat said:

Aristocat, Just so you know, there are books already written that resolve the alleged "discrepancies." And the ones Karaka brings up are merely at first grade level. Not even trying, since it's one of the first every nonbeliever can find within five minutes of looking for some.

He'll keep baiting you with more and more, and he will never listen to your answers no matter how logical they are. That too is part of the game.

(I played this game for years with nonbelievers, until I realized it was as if they had the exact same direction to go and never listened to other answers but the ones the direction booklet give.)

JimmieD · Apr 20, 2016

Karaka said:

Sorry for the slow response; things have been, and continue to be, pretty hectic around here so responses will be slow for the foreseeable future.

It depends on the question being asked. Hypothesis testing utilizing scientific methodology certainly is the preferred method given the right circumstances, but there are some questions to which this simply doesn't work. For example, we could ask, "is the scientific method the best method for determining truth claims?" You couldn't answer that questions utilizing scientific methodology without falling victim to self reference and circular reasoning.

This was one of my main points. The method you were requiring people on the board here to use to justify their claims is (a) not the only way to determine true claims or obtain knowledge, (b) isn't itself justifiable without falling to circular reasoning, and (c) might not be an appropriate method to utilize to the question being asked.

I prefer scientific methodology as anyone you will find. Those techniques are highly rigorous and have repeatedly demonstrated the capability to deliver reliable, true results. It's an extremely effective way to control for systemic biases that we naturally are vulnerable to committing. But it's not the only method for determining truth, it isn't provable using it's own method and it won't be effective for answering every question imaginable.

I think what would have to be shown is that the claim "God exists" is (a) a scientific question that can be verified or falsified with scientific methodology and it's replicable experiments and statistical techniques and (b) can only be known via that method. I'm pretty skeptical that the existence of God is a scientific question or could be verified or falsified with scientific methodology. I think it's pretty clearly a metaphysical question/claim.

Your hypothesis fails because it's a philosophical claim subject to self referencing circularity.

Can you successfully apply the scientific method to the above statement without circular reasoning? I doubt it.

Logic is not a set thing,

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Rules for logic are pretty well defined. I don't know what you mean by "logic isn't a set thing" as that implies that logic is a set thing since you must rely on at least a rule of non-contradiction for it to be true.

I suggest your various claims be combed for self defeating statements. But that's just a suggestion.

I've never seen Naturalism as an axiom, and (a) I don't know who are "most people" who agree on it, (b) I don't know why it should matter what "most people" think as determining truth isn't determined by majority vote (that's unscientific too, btw), and (c) I doubt most people agree on it. If there's one category of things that people widely disagree on, it's philosophical claims.

It is the position that the natural world exists objectively.

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That's not the definition I've seen for Naturalism.

Most christians are naturalists,

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I think by definition most Christians are not Naturalists. I think you may be equivocating on the term "Naturalism."

So basically the hypothesis that

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Then I don't know why you were requiring people on the board here to justify their position via that method. You should be asking them to just justify or provide warrant for their position.

Any formal system for evaluating truth will have statements that are either inconsistent or are unprovable from within the system. This is a crude way of stating either Godels Incompleteness Theorem, Tarski's Theorem, and the like.

The statement, "the scientific method is the only (or best) method for determining truth" cannot itself be verified without self reference and circularity (circularity usually is understood to mean arbitrary and irrational).

That's not how axioms usually function, but no matter.

Is that absolutely true?

Is that an absolute truth?

I dunno; it seems you have fallen subject to self reference and circularity in many of your statements which was one of the problems I pointed out in my initial post.

I don't know what this has to do with the discussion you're having with me. I mean, I have an error term in my signature line which would seem to be an obvious indicator that have no problem with uncertainty. I think your statements assume certitude on certain things and you don't seem to see an inconsistency within your own beliefs.

Btw, I would broaden the claim to say that lack of certainty is disturbing for most people and not limited to the category of Christian. Just finished a book by James Holmes ("Nonsense: the Power of Not Knowing") which says as much.

Don't mistake me for others; I really don't care whether or not you're dubious on Christianity. My day continues unabated.

Should I be agnostic about this claim? Should you be too?

Yep; thanks for the good discussion.

Let's talk about god

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