Let's talk about god

Karaka · Apr 14, 2016

don't misunderstand, i hear what you are saying, the box, all that. you are bashing me on the head with the same thing over and over again, i get the gist of it now. the issue is clearly that i do value reason and logic and MAKING SENSE and you don't.

now please answer this very simple question: which of us MAKES SENSE?

Magenta · Apr 14, 2016

Karaka said:

Hello again. Interesting that for all your claims of wishing to be objective and being rational and intelligent etc you have now accused me more than once of advocating for things I have not even hinted at, so I am left with the impression that you do not understand what I am saying, or do not process what I am telling you in a way that aligns with what I am actually telling you... nowhere did I say to abandon critical thinking, but it seems you have abandoned yours lol. You do not even know what I was studying and practicing but you have condemned it based on studies other people did when all along I have been encouraging you to get involved on a spiritual level so you can experience something you won't find in a book that transcends your intelligence without leaving it right out of the picture entirely. Your mind and critical thinking will always engage with your experiences, and it is no less so than when one experiences the numinous. Also you say you do not take things for granted but you have just proven to me that you very much do because whatever studies you read you assumed were correct... no doubt they confirmed your existent bias! You are in a box you need to get out of.

Karaka · Apr 14, 2016

magenta,

well maybe it wasn't you that refered to this, i might have answered for somebody else. but here you are accusing me of something you are doing yourself... how do you know i assumed the study was right? haven't you noticed how i go out of my way to get a balanced view? i mean, have you read the skeptical literature? have you heard of michael shermer, or todd carroll or guy harisson or james randi? have you listen to what they have to say, and compared it to what others were saying? to what you believe in? honestly?

Karaka · Apr 14, 2016

okay sorry i'm getting defensive and frustrated and i am not being respectful, i'm going to go do something else for the evening and i'll come back tomorrow to see what all you patient people have to say about all the questions i asked...

Karaka · Apr 14, 2016

i really would like to focus on the validity of taking a "leap of faith" to get to truth.

Magenta · Apr 14, 2016

Karaka said:

Another false accusation. You are not doing so well. Here, you said, exactly: The esoterica you describe have been investigated and shown, conclusively to me anyway, to be the mere effect of cognitive biases and logical falacies. You honestly cannot tell me anyone could infer from that that you are saying they are right when you clearly think they are wrong. You don't even know which esoterica I was studying! Your condemnation prior to investigation is the sure sign of a closed minded. And after all we have exchanged you ask what I believe in? Really? I believe you can experience God, because I believe I have, and Scripture affirms that this is not only possible but a promise. Don't call it circular reasoning. It ain't. There is a God and He wants you to know Him.

Karaka · Apr 14, 2016

okay after this I'm turning off for the day.

magenta we are talking across each other. i have spend probably more time looking into what is called esoterica than into religion, and i can say with a fair amount of confidence that the vast majority of it is bunk, and demonstratably so. if you want, we can discuss through personall message which particular brand of esoterica you were studying and we can have a nice respectfull discussion about that and if you show me i was mistaken, then i will then agree i was mistaken. calling me close minded because i want to rely on reason and logic is not really waranted.

i was not asking you what you believe in i was asking you if you have compared what you believe in with the counter arguments other people present agaisnt your belief.

Karaka · Apr 14, 2016

which make me think actually, i would like to the few of you still interested in talking to me to start discussing this through personal messages because i have to admit that pitting myself against the whole community at the same time is a tad overwhelming, if only for the amount of info to process and analyse. so maybe instead of posting more on this thread, let's do this in private, then i can focus on only a few of you. I'll be waiting for your messages.

and then now and then we can put updates but i feel i have enough interlocutors as it is.

Magenta · Apr 14, 2016

Karaka said:

You can investigate what other people think and believe until the cows come home and you will not be any further ahead if you do not get out there and experience some of it for yourself. Once you experience something do you really care that Joe Blow has investigated xyz and decided it was all bunk? We are not talking about moon landings here. We are talking about spiritual matters that you know little to nothing about beyond what others have decided, because your superior intelligence assumes they are correct about such things and then deems them beneath you. You won't get anywhere like that. I am not really interested in discussing the esoterica I was involved in. The thing is that I pursued spiritual matters pretty wholeheartedly despite my skepticism. I experienced things no book can tell you that you would understand without having some very similar experience. That is what I would nudge you toward. I am not asking you to give up your analytical critical rational logical mind but to take it further afield, out of your comfort zone.

robbomango · Apr 14, 2016

There's the belief in some form of self creation or the belief that we came into being via an intelligent agent/agents. I believe the latter is a more reasonable and logical position than molecules to man/life from non life and probably requires less faith imo.
It sounds simple but I understand how hard it is when you're on the other side of the coin looking in.

I was an agnostic until about 8 years ago, at times I was sure there was no God and other times I just didn't know. I had always followed science and spent much time listening/watching videos about cosmology etc. The phrase "God created" just sounded like another cop out to me until one day I finally understood understood it. It was quite shocking and hard to explain, I was sitting there and it just hit me an I started repeating in my head "God created? No way God? but how? God!?" I went outside and looked at the stars, I sat in dismay, scared, slack jawed and confused staring up at the cosmos contemplating.

It was as if God was banging on my door and I opened it up and he came barreling in. My world was turned upside down, I cried of course. At times i tried to fight it but it was pointless and I knew it was true.

I started to read the Bible and it just resonated with me, got to the NT and the story of Jesus touched my heart completely.

A belief in God is not like some giant candy bar that's fun to chew on, actually it can be quite the opposite at times. He will flash a light on you and you'll shrivel up like a vampire under the sun lol.

I'm not much of a back and forth debater just sharing my little story. May the love and peace of God be with you on your quest brother. Hopefully it will lead you to the path of Jesus.

God bless and much love!

Magenta · Apr 14, 2016

robbomango said:

Thank you for sharing

I understand how "getting God" totally turned your world upside down because the same happened to me. All those years of thinking Christians were wrong... LOL!!! Somebody told me, you know it is really happening to you when you say, Oh no! I am turning into one of them! Haha being a Christian was probably last on the list of things I might like to be in this lifetime. And born again Christians, weren't they the worst? Yes, that is me, the born again Bible thumping Christian LOLOLOL

Jesus loves you!!!

robbomango · Apr 14, 2016

Magenta said:

Thank You Magenta,

Yep, those pesky Christians....

It's funny when people suggest that we just like to believe in fairytales. Um yeah, after all those years criticizing Christians it was such a joy to tuck my tale between my legs and crawl over to the other side....

B1Davanda · Apr 14, 2016

Karaka said:

In post #137 I asked you 8 questions. You weakly answered about the resurrection with the tired 'circular reasoning' retort.

So you want to discount the validity of scripture, but then appeal to the writings of other men and the idea that so-called scholars argue with each other as a means to disprove Jesus' claims about Himself, His death, and His rising from the grave?
How conveeenient.

And you kind of chickened out of answering the other questions, but maybe the fact that Jesus is alive has you a bit rattled, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, lol, and repeat just one of the questions here.....

--->How do you explain people building hospitals, schools, orphanages, nurseries, nursing homes, homeless shelters, food kitchens, recovery houses, charities, missions and ministries of all kinds, all in the name of this Jesus who was either a liar or didn't exist at all?<---

Karaka said:

No one is asking you to take a leap of faith.
The evidence demands a verdict, but you can't handle the truth.

And you can't 'get to truth'. None of us could.
That's why the truth came to all of us.
Jesus Himself claimed to be 'the Truth'.

He made the world, and came into the world, but the world didn't recognize Him. He came to His own people, but they didn't receive Him.
But to those who did and do receive Him,
He gave the power to become the sons of God,
even to those who believe in His name.

Your intellectualism is masking an underlying fear, because deep down you know there has to be something more to life, including something beyond the grave, or else your life is meaningless, and that's a scary thing for sure.

But what you need to hear is that God is not out to get you to judge or condemn you. JESUS already took your judgement upon Himself and nailed it to the cross. He did that to prove to you that He loves you.

Don't take a leap of faith. You've been doing that your whole life and you know it. You've been leaping from place to place, not in hopes of finding the truth, but in desperate attempts to avoid it, because to face the prospects of death and what's beyond the grave scares the crap out of you.
Hey, me too!

And to varying degrees most of us have been there with you.
But again...God so LOVED the world, He gave Jesus to be our Savior.
Stop leaping and be still and know He is God.

Instead of leaping, take a step of humility and ask the Lord
Jesus Christ to be your Savior, and thank Him that He is.
If after doing so, you still don't want His love, His grace,
His forgiveness, His mercy, you can try asking Him to
refund your misery.
But please know it's not His will for
you to perish, and we're praying for you.

Heavenly Father, please bless this Karaka person with your love
and forgiveness, and the joy of your salvation.
Grant him the eyes to see you, Lord, the ears to hear your word,
and the heart to receive you with thanksgiving in Jesus' name. Amen.

Miri · Apr 14, 2016

Hi Karaka

You know what, it sounds that instead of trying to convince yourself God does
exist, you are trying to convince yourself God doesn't exist. Lol

Come on, admit it, part of you is worried He does exist and you are trying to
find a way around that in your own mind.

Oh re the accident. You know what it refers in the bible to the fact that no one who
stands before God at the end of their life, will be able to say I didn't know about you.

Maybe, just maybe (and I already know what you are going to say about this but hear
me out) just maybe God saved your life that day as He knew there would be a future
time you would seek Him. Just maybe He wanted to give you every opportunity possible
to learn about Him and seek Him before you do meet death.

Be very careful now how you proceed, don't be going fishing, don't go through any red
lights lol. Don't go and die on us now that you have the knowledge of the creator God
without first turning to Him in repentance.

I still throw down the challenge I gave you earlier to seek Him with all your heart, get
out that bible, pray, read, ask God to reveal a Himself to you. Do the seeking and
finding for yourself.

There red is a saying that the proof of the pudding is in the eating, when are you
gonna really start looking for that evidence you so desparately want. Until you
start to seek God for yourself you won't find it.

A scientist looks for physical evidence, but God is spirit, you must therefore look
for spiritual evidence.

Oh by the way in regards to the many different styles of replies you are getting,
that is the beauty of these forums. We all approch things from different angles so that's
a good thing, as between us all you get the full balanced view point. Many different styles
but we all still believe in the God of the bible.

You ask why not believe in the different religions and which one is right. I could give
you (we all could) a Trillion answers but it would just make for a different conversation
way of topic. So I would just say that all other religions are counterfeit, a copy of the
Christians belief. They all believe elements of the bible but twist them a round.

I think earlier in the thread you also said something about evil. That's because as well as
the existence of God, there is also Satan. Satan twists and distorts things around he does
not want people to find God. He destroys, manipulates, blinds people to the truth, distracts
etc.

Magenta · Apr 14, 2016

Karaka said:

Absolutely. We are made in God's image, after all. God is a God of absolute integrity and reason. Also, it is pretty difficult to make sense of life without them.

Science investigates the natural world. Is it reliable? Up to a point, since our knowledge grows and changes over time. Also, science proposes things that have no known basis in reality. At least one theory that was widely accepted by scientists has been proven to be wrong as well. How attached are you to science? Do you know that Christians developed the scientific method? Do you know that there are many scientists who are theists, and Christian? Some of them are Nobel prize winners. Should that not tell you that scientists and theologians are not necessarily mutually exclusive?

According to 100 Years of Nobel Prize (2005), a review of Nobel prizes awarded between 1901 and 2000, 65.4% of Nobel Prize Laureates, have identified Christianity in its various forms as their religious preference (423 prizes). Overall, Christians have won a total of 78.3% of all the Nobel Prizes in Peace, 72.5% in Chemistry, 65.3% in Physics, 62% in Medicine, 54% in Economics and 49.5% of all Literature awards. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_Nobel_laureates

Why, do you assume I do not?

No, though some make themselves to be, such as maltheists, Dawkins, etc.

Why would I want to?

Jesus and the God of the Bible revealed themselves to me.

You seem confused. Faith is something we receive from God. Having it gifted to me from God, through His Son Jesus Christ, I did not then seek to pollute it with the false god of the false prophet who thought he was demon possessed until his wife and another relative convinced him to accept that the jinn that had accosted him was the angel Gabriel, even though verses were eventually removed from what he "received" because they were acknowledged to be Satanic in origin. Not surprising coming from an adulterous war mongering pedophile after all, even if he is held up as an ideal person, a paragon of virtue in the Muslim/Islamic world. Do you really see Muhammad as an equal to Jesus?

Jesus has made Himself available to all. The god of this world blinds you.

Plenty of Asians and others in foreign countries answer the call Christ puts on their life.

False premise, since foreign cultures are not immune to the spread of Christianity.

Hell is the grave, translated from four words in the Hebrew and Greek. If you fail to acknowledge the author and giver of life, you pass into the second death. Why would you expect to be given more life and to be invited into the home of Someone you cannot even admit exists and gave you life in the first place?

There is no sin too great that Jesus will not forgive (aside from blasphemy). Blasphemy is essentially denying Him and His work on your behalf. Perhaps it has never occurred to you that many atheists were brought up in Christian homes just as Hitler was. Does that make them Christian too? LOL.

I was not convinced by the Bible, but by the Living Word of God Himself.

God so loved the world that He sent Jesus to take our place in death, that we may attain life ever after when we accept His propitiatory sacrifice on our behalf. Is that really so hard to understand? Admittedly, the Holy Spirit of God makes it much easier to understand, and it is impossible to accept without such. Seek and you shall find.

Haha. It always comes to this: you think you know better than God! Good luck with that

Oh my, and on top of all that you want thousands of years of the history between God and His people laid out in a neat little packet made easy to understand? Jesus is the way the Truth and the life. Seek Him!

bikerchaz · Apr 14, 2016

Karaka said:

From a worldly point of view you make sense. If I was looking for things to make sense I would not be here, neither would any one else. There is a hole chapter discussing whether God makes sense or not in Corinthians ch 1.

The clarity I see with my minds eye is so bright and clear, and it usually hits like a brick in the face, like robbomango put in their post, it happens suddenly and without warning, and all that is then needed is acceptance, this is the crux, the acceptance.

But you will never understand any of this when you face it with a common sense point of view. It is all foolishness, it is stupid and arrogant to hold such views that counter your own reasoning, yet we still hold on to them, even to the point of death.

And death is here! it is a state we all face, B1divanda mentioned this. And here is more foolishness, I can write this and now and I know I will not see death, now if that is not foolishness then what is? I have within me the assurance that death has no hold over me, if I can stand in the street and proclaim it as truth what then? Will men in white coats pull up and take me away? What then if in my next breath I shout "You too can have this same assurance within you to know that God loves you so much you will not see death"? Yes this body I live in will die unless I am alive at Jesus return, but then as Job knew so do I that with my own eyes "I shall see God".

If to accept then that this foolishness I cling to will allow me to disinherit my mortal body for one which will be made incorruptible, then let me be foolish and stupid and misled. I revel in the misleading that gives me life, and here is another foolish point, if my perseverance was down to what I would receive within the Kingdom to come, I would be disappointed to think I would receive any more than they who have not walked my walk or gone through my fire of criticism.

Those who have only just accepted what Jesus has done and have asked Him in to live and guide them will receive just as much if not more within Gods Kingdom than I. David said he would rather spend a day as a door keeper in the kingdom than a life time of selfishness, I have already asked God if only He will allow me to wash the feet of those who are door keepers, then I would be satisfied.

I am not taking a "day out" from this thread I am leaving it. You have a choice to make and neither I or anyone else can do it for you. In the foolishness I live in I am content. With no money, a wife with failing health, and my own idiosyncrasies which God puts up with. I would like more while in this world, but I am prepared to live for Him and what He wants above my own comfort.

To those with an ear I need to say this, there is death within this thread. Keep discussions within the realm of visibility and on here. PM has its place, but be guided by the Spirit and not bamboozled by the enemy.

Tintin · Apr 14, 2016

Karaka said:

You have no foundation for reasoning anything UNLESS the God of the Bible is true.

1ofthem · Apr 14, 2016

Karaka said:

I think Robbomango’s post (testimony) was a perfect example of taking a leap of faith. It’s pretty simple in my opinion. But as far as validity of taking a leap of faith goes, those two things are contrary, the one to the other. Faith is not science. With as much study into the matter as you claim to have done I am sure you understand that fact.

But let’s talk a little more about validity…Is there any perfect science? Is science ever 100% valid? I don’t think so; thus, if you’re putting your belief in a scientific theory of how the world as we know it began then you’re putting faith in it. It cannot be proven. There are no pictures or written accounts of it. You basically have to just put your faith in science that it happened. There is no hope or help in it at all. There is no peace or happiness. There is no reward at the end for following it. We are told to believe it just because they say it, and they think that’s how it happened.

With that being said, God has given you a mind and he allows you to choose. You can put your faith in whatever you please. Personally, I choose to believe in creation and God. There is hope, peace, happiness, and reward in it. I wish you well, but it is in your control not mine….It’s up to you.

NayborBear · Apr 14, 2016

robbomango said:

Tis' a Great n TERRIBLE "event", this being convicted/inpregnated, ain't it? It evades any and all attempts in the describings of, save the one who has been. It renders the one, to such a quivering mass of protoplasm, on the sub-atomic level, that eliminates ANY doubt, as to the WHO, HE IS!! Don't it? Rather humbling to think of oneself as merely a bug on God's windshield!

It really blesses those who have had similar experience/s. More importantly? It REALLY BLESSES, Our Father, in our effort/s, in esplaining it to others.

It is my prayer, that, Mr. karaka, experience an event, such as this. And, see how patiently he can endure, or persevere through postings of the "next ones", that come down the pike, asking PROOF!

For those keeping score? "Cognizant Bias" - 1
"Confirmation Bias" - 0

JimmieD · Apr 14, 2016

Karaka said:

Does this mean you're unable to justify your position or that you were wrong?

Let's talk about god

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