Miri, magenta, swordman, bikerbaz and I guess everyone else , i appreciate your answers and am considering what you are saying. Bavanda, i'm curious about your case, i would like you to tell me what makes you believe if you have not experienced the personal communication with God which seem to be the top thing for the others, is is just habit ? And please read about the confirmation bias, find your own sources on the internet if you don't want to trust mine. I have to respectfully disagree with Miri's way to find God, as I explain below. What she recomends to you is how to form an unsuported belief. Maybe she is right but I'm posting this because I'd like this issue addressed, I find it all important.
It comes across that the personal experience is very important to you all in your faith.
Of course i am not denying you are having those experiences and am grateful for you guys to take the time and trouble explaining your faith to me.
« My question to you is why don't you believe God exists full stop.
I do not believe God exists. Why ? Because i just don't, I cannot decide to believe, it doesn't work like this. If i want to be honest with myself i cannot tell myself « believe ! » and then believe, especially because i understand confirmation bias and it appears evident that such a way to get to belief would put me at risk of believing in very random and very incorrect things. Belief happens, when convinced by something. I'm not convinced. Blind faith does not strike me, even after all you have been saying, as a very reliable way to know things, because it leads different people to believe in very contradictory things with no way to tell who is correct and who is not. God did not talk to me, he remains invisible to me. The invisible and the inexistent look very similar. I am not a complete novice on the subject and i have studied the matter as best I can. I am still baffled that people still believe in God despite what i take to be a lack of evidence and reason for it. I understand now from your answers that this personal experience most of you describe is very potent and since i haven't experienced it myself and come from a non belief position, I have no incentive to believe anyway until having this experience. So i'll keep what you say in mind, keep an open mind, and if God makes himself known to me in an unequivocal way, then I'll believe.
Miri, as for your list : i do not really want to start a debate but you are asking so i need to respond. My aim was to get first hand explanation on faith and the personal experience and i guess you have provided so i'd rather leave it at that than getting into a shooting match on your community website.
It sounds like you are wanting proof God exists, but it's not like
seeing a car painted red going by and suddenly believing red cars exist.
Its more like believing in the wind, you can't see it, but you can see the
effects of it.
You can't see gravity, but without it life on planet earth would not exist. »
gravity and the wind have very direct physical, natural effects (i'm a sailor, i know all about wind), The wind and God are not the same thing, the wind is natural and God is (would be) supernatural. So it is not the same thing. but what are God's natural and physical effects on this world ? You are claiming God performs miracles all the time, and miracles are provable , demonstrable things, open to refution or confirmation by scientific means, so please give me concrete examples of miracles that everybody can agree on, something tangible, like a youtube video of somebody praying for and spontaneously growing a new limb for example, while MDs are looking on. I have looked into it and haven't found any such clear cut miracle that can not be explained another way. If you are saying there are no proof God exists whatsoever, then in a way you are saying miracles do not happen. Which is a weird thing for a christian to say. I think that the abscence of such clear cut miracles is a sign that God might not perform miracles. Prove the contrary to me and you've made my day.
You can't see morality, but every human ever born has a sense of right
and wrong. If God did not exist where did we get our morality from.
I have looked also into the morailty issue and i am not convinced that it is a strong argument for the existence of god. That is a subject that i wouldn't mind getting into with you people. I consider the problem of evil to be one of the most potent argument AGAINST the existence of God, especially the christian god, and even apologists like william lane craig fail to make the point stick, which is why i didn't think that could be one of the main reason you guys believe.
Also have you heard of the euthyphro dilemna ? It goes : is something good because it is holy or is something holy because it is good ? Thinks of the implications of both answers. Both are disturbing.
Every people group on the planet down the ages has had a sense of God's
existance, who put that into them?
There is a growing body of scientific research into the mind and the psychology of man that explains the sense of god (lower case). I suggest you look into it if you haven't yet, it is fascinating. Basically it is found that there are natural inclinations to believe, not only in God, but also in fairies, santa claus, UFO, conspiracy theories, etc etc... by finding pattern even where there are none and attributing agencies or causal agents even when there are none, as a survival tool, predator avoidance mostly. But i guess if you do not accept evolution this would be meaningless to you. i'm not trying to push opinions and debate here but if anybody is interested i can give you references. I was talking to a women calling herself Jesuslove earlier and we had a nice exchange, but it came up that she was not aware of confirmation bias and i guess any of the other cognitive biases. I think not being aware of thoses biases puts one in great danger of being victim of them and as a result believing in things due to faulty logic. I think it is the duty of anybody who asserts the truth of something( be it Jesus or Allah or fairies or atheism) to make sure that truth is correct. And that involves studying psychology to understand how humans tend to be wrong, how we believe and why we beleive, and whether what we believe is likely to be true or not, objectively. It is just a way to avoid delusional beliefs, and i don't think anybody want to be delusional, i certainly don't. So i try to make sure i'm not in error, by talking to people who strongly disagree with me for example, and honestly evaluate what they are saying, not taking the a priori position that I am right and that they are wrong. In all respect, a lot of what i have read so far on this thread have been examples of cognitive biases at works, or logical fallacies. The personal experience is the strongest point you have made i think, but i have to question it in light of what we do know about cognitive sciences. Surely you are not saying we should discard those findings about how we believe or that somehow they don't apply to what YOU believe? And without talking about different religions, i think it very odd that people who believe in different religion claim to reach the certainty that THEIR God exists based on the same concept of faith and personal experience. If they are saying contradictory things it is evident to me that some have to be in error. None of you respond to that, you are just saying to me that i'll find out when Jesus talks to me, but i'm asking how do you make sure it is Jesus you are talking to, not Allah or Vishnu ? It seems to me you don't. You just take it for granted out of a cultural bias. And it seems that where you are born is very important in the matter since the guy from pakistan believes in Allah and not Jesus, and vice versa. I find it disturbing that what you believe in should be related to where you are born and in what family you grew up in or what tract was given to you at a vulnerable moment.
Who invented marriage? People didn't they would prefer not to get married at all.
There is an answer to that in anthropology and biology, i don't want to get into it here but i need to mention it because you seem to ask those questions assuming there are no other answers than : God did it. If you are genuinely asking yourself those questions you need to seek the answers, like i'm doing, and that means not giving up when you can't imagine an alternative, because it cheapens your God into a « god of the gaps » and i don't think he would want you to do that.
Who invented the world wide notion across all nations of an after life heaven
and hell. If we are just another type of animal then why have all civilisations held
the notion of an after life.
If you study the matter it becomes evident that what you are saying here is incorrect. People around the world have a very different notion of the afterlife, and not all have heaven and hell. The notion of an afterlife has also been investigated by neurologists and psychologist, and if you are curious about this i can refer some sources for that. But once again i do not really want to debate those matter here, i am just responding because it appears you think all those things make a compelling case, i'm just trying to point out that they don't necessarily. You have to admit that as a christian, you are also a minority on the planet, 1/5[SUP]th[/SUP] or so. That means that 4/5th of the human population disagree with you on some fundamental matters. It is hubris to believe you are right because you are right, don't you agree ?
Who set the planets in such an exact alignment that the moon completely covers the
sun during an eclipse. Not too near not too far, just right.
I don't know and i readily admit it. I'll look it up, sounds interesting.
In the same token, have you ever heard of intestinal parasites or babies born with deformities? How come such things exist ?
I'm sure we could throw examples like that at each other all day, but what would be the point ?
In fact there are many aspects of our planet that are "just right" astrologers are
busy searching for other planets with this so called Goldilocks effect, but they won't
find one as it was Gods plan for planet earth.
Just right for what exactly ? For life to thrive ? I actually find that a non argument, if we were living on a completely « unright » planet, that would be good evidence that god puts us there, but as it is earth is just right for life as we know it to evolve and thrive. I don't see your point. But once more i'd like to stay out of such debates
If you truely want to know for yourself if God exists, then you have to seek
God with all your heart, ask Him to reveal Himself to you and He will.
One thing, you can't do it in a half hearted way as God knows your heart and
He knows if you are being serious.
As for me I know with all my being that the God of the bible, who created the heavens
and the earth and who gave Himself through God the son to die on a cross for me, does
exist.
I have experienced His love first hand in a supernatural way, I have had many prayers
supernaturally answered which could not in any way be attributed to coincidence.
I have received physical healing.
He speaks to me in dreams, there has been many times He has urged me to do
something and without knowing why I have obeyed and seen amazing things happen
which in no way could be considered a coincidence.
There have been been far too many incidents to even try to explain it all here to you.
But have a read through the testimony forum, read through other people's experiences
on here.
Okay, but what i'm trying to figure out is how do you know this and how do you make sure you are not delusional about it. The muslims say the same things exactly but according to you THEY are delusional. They say YOU are. Who should i believe while waiting to be touched by either Jesus or Allah ? Why should i listen to you and not to the muslim ? Why should i read the bible and not the quran ? Or the book or mormons ? You are all saying the same thing but your beliefs are strongly contradictory, each of you believe the other one will end up in hell. Admit it is confusing.
If you are just wanting a logical debate, then there is no point as it is impossible to
know God unless He reaches out to you spiritually. He will do that if you turn to Him and
really seek Him with all your heart. You see it's a two way thing, the more you seek God,
the more He will seek you. But really it is God all along who puts it in your heart to seek
Him.
Okay, i'll keep that in mind but what about the confirmation bias ? You are not denying it is a factor in believing, are you ? Confirmation bias do induce people to believe wrongly in things that are not true, and you seem to be saying to me that i should use confirmation bias to believe in Jesus. If confirmation bias sometimes induces people to believe incorrect things, how do you make sure it is not the case with your belief in Jesus ? I see it as a problem, don't you ?
It comes across that the personal experience is very important to you all in your faith.
Of course i am not denying you are having those experiences and am grateful for you guys to take the time and trouble explaining your faith to me.
« My question to you is why don't you believe God exists full stop.
I do not believe God exists. Why ? Because i just don't, I cannot decide to believe, it doesn't work like this. If i want to be honest with myself i cannot tell myself « believe ! » and then believe, especially because i understand confirmation bias and it appears evident that such a way to get to belief would put me at risk of believing in very random and very incorrect things. Belief happens, when convinced by something. I'm not convinced. Blind faith does not strike me, even after all you have been saying, as a very reliable way to know things, because it leads different people to believe in very contradictory things with no way to tell who is correct and who is not. God did not talk to me, he remains invisible to me. The invisible and the inexistent look very similar. I am not a complete novice on the subject and i have studied the matter as best I can. I am still baffled that people still believe in God despite what i take to be a lack of evidence and reason for it. I understand now from your answers that this personal experience most of you describe is very potent and since i haven't experienced it myself and come from a non belief position, I have no incentive to believe anyway until having this experience. So i'll keep what you say in mind, keep an open mind, and if God makes himself known to me in an unequivocal way, then I'll believe.
Miri, as for your list : i do not really want to start a debate but you are asking so i need to respond. My aim was to get first hand explanation on faith and the personal experience and i guess you have provided so i'd rather leave it at that than getting into a shooting match on your community website.
It sounds like you are wanting proof God exists, but it's not like
seeing a car painted red going by and suddenly believing red cars exist.
Its more like believing in the wind, you can't see it, but you can see the
effects of it.
You can't see gravity, but without it life on planet earth would not exist. »
gravity and the wind have very direct physical, natural effects (i'm a sailor, i know all about wind), The wind and God are not the same thing, the wind is natural and God is (would be) supernatural. So it is not the same thing. but what are God's natural and physical effects on this world ? You are claiming God performs miracles all the time, and miracles are provable , demonstrable things, open to refution or confirmation by scientific means, so please give me concrete examples of miracles that everybody can agree on, something tangible, like a youtube video of somebody praying for and spontaneously growing a new limb for example, while MDs are looking on. I have looked into it and haven't found any such clear cut miracle that can not be explained another way. If you are saying there are no proof God exists whatsoever, then in a way you are saying miracles do not happen. Which is a weird thing for a christian to say. I think that the abscence of such clear cut miracles is a sign that God might not perform miracles. Prove the contrary to me and you've made my day.
You can't see morality, but every human ever born has a sense of right
and wrong. If God did not exist where did we get our morality from.
I have looked also into the morailty issue and i am not convinced that it is a strong argument for the existence of god. That is a subject that i wouldn't mind getting into with you people. I consider the problem of evil to be one of the most potent argument AGAINST the existence of God, especially the christian god, and even apologists like william lane craig fail to make the point stick, which is why i didn't think that could be one of the main reason you guys believe.
Also have you heard of the euthyphro dilemna ? It goes : is something good because it is holy or is something holy because it is good ? Thinks of the implications of both answers. Both are disturbing.
Every people group on the planet down the ages has had a sense of God's
existance, who put that into them?
There is a growing body of scientific research into the mind and the psychology of man that explains the sense of god (lower case). I suggest you look into it if you haven't yet, it is fascinating. Basically it is found that there are natural inclinations to believe, not only in God, but also in fairies, santa claus, UFO, conspiracy theories, etc etc... by finding pattern even where there are none and attributing agencies or causal agents even when there are none, as a survival tool, predator avoidance mostly. But i guess if you do not accept evolution this would be meaningless to you. i'm not trying to push opinions and debate here but if anybody is interested i can give you references. I was talking to a women calling herself Jesuslove earlier and we had a nice exchange, but it came up that she was not aware of confirmation bias and i guess any of the other cognitive biases. I think not being aware of thoses biases puts one in great danger of being victim of them and as a result believing in things due to faulty logic. I think it is the duty of anybody who asserts the truth of something( be it Jesus or Allah or fairies or atheism) to make sure that truth is correct. And that involves studying psychology to understand how humans tend to be wrong, how we believe and why we beleive, and whether what we believe is likely to be true or not, objectively. It is just a way to avoid delusional beliefs, and i don't think anybody want to be delusional, i certainly don't. So i try to make sure i'm not in error, by talking to people who strongly disagree with me for example, and honestly evaluate what they are saying, not taking the a priori position that I am right and that they are wrong. In all respect, a lot of what i have read so far on this thread have been examples of cognitive biases at works, or logical fallacies. The personal experience is the strongest point you have made i think, but i have to question it in light of what we do know about cognitive sciences. Surely you are not saying we should discard those findings about how we believe or that somehow they don't apply to what YOU believe? And without talking about different religions, i think it very odd that people who believe in different religion claim to reach the certainty that THEIR God exists based on the same concept of faith and personal experience. If they are saying contradictory things it is evident to me that some have to be in error. None of you respond to that, you are just saying to me that i'll find out when Jesus talks to me, but i'm asking how do you make sure it is Jesus you are talking to, not Allah or Vishnu ? It seems to me you don't. You just take it for granted out of a cultural bias. And it seems that where you are born is very important in the matter since the guy from pakistan believes in Allah and not Jesus, and vice versa. I find it disturbing that what you believe in should be related to where you are born and in what family you grew up in or what tract was given to you at a vulnerable moment.
Who invented marriage? People didn't they would prefer not to get married at all.
There is an answer to that in anthropology and biology, i don't want to get into it here but i need to mention it because you seem to ask those questions assuming there are no other answers than : God did it. If you are genuinely asking yourself those questions you need to seek the answers, like i'm doing, and that means not giving up when you can't imagine an alternative, because it cheapens your God into a « god of the gaps » and i don't think he would want you to do that.
Who invented the world wide notion across all nations of an after life heaven
and hell. If we are just another type of animal then why have all civilisations held
the notion of an after life.
If you study the matter it becomes evident that what you are saying here is incorrect. People around the world have a very different notion of the afterlife, and not all have heaven and hell. The notion of an afterlife has also been investigated by neurologists and psychologist, and if you are curious about this i can refer some sources for that. But once again i do not really want to debate those matter here, i am just responding because it appears you think all those things make a compelling case, i'm just trying to point out that they don't necessarily. You have to admit that as a christian, you are also a minority on the planet, 1/5[SUP]th[/SUP] or so. That means that 4/5th of the human population disagree with you on some fundamental matters. It is hubris to believe you are right because you are right, don't you agree ?
Who set the planets in such an exact alignment that the moon completely covers the
sun during an eclipse. Not too near not too far, just right.
I don't know and i readily admit it. I'll look it up, sounds interesting.
In the same token, have you ever heard of intestinal parasites or babies born with deformities? How come such things exist ?
I'm sure we could throw examples like that at each other all day, but what would be the point ?
In fact there are many aspects of our planet that are "just right" astrologers are
busy searching for other planets with this so called Goldilocks effect, but they won't
find one as it was Gods plan for planet earth.
Just right for what exactly ? For life to thrive ? I actually find that a non argument, if we were living on a completely « unright » planet, that would be good evidence that god puts us there, but as it is earth is just right for life as we know it to evolve and thrive. I don't see your point. But once more i'd like to stay out of such debates
If you truely want to know for yourself if God exists, then you have to seek
God with all your heart, ask Him to reveal Himself to you and He will.
One thing, you can't do it in a half hearted way as God knows your heart and
He knows if you are being serious.
As for me I know with all my being that the God of the bible, who created the heavens
and the earth and who gave Himself through God the son to die on a cross for me, does
exist.
I have experienced His love first hand in a supernatural way, I have had many prayers
supernaturally answered which could not in any way be attributed to coincidence.
I have received physical healing.
He speaks to me in dreams, there has been many times He has urged me to do
something and without knowing why I have obeyed and seen amazing things happen
which in no way could be considered a coincidence.
There have been been far too many incidents to even try to explain it all here to you.
But have a read through the testimony forum, read through other people's experiences
on here.
Okay, but what i'm trying to figure out is how do you know this and how do you make sure you are not delusional about it. The muslims say the same things exactly but according to you THEY are delusional. They say YOU are. Who should i believe while waiting to be touched by either Jesus or Allah ? Why should i listen to you and not to the muslim ? Why should i read the bible and not the quran ? Or the book or mormons ? You are all saying the same thing but your beliefs are strongly contradictory, each of you believe the other one will end up in hell. Admit it is confusing.
If you are just wanting a logical debate, then there is no point as it is impossible to
know God unless He reaches out to you spiritually. He will do that if you turn to Him and
really seek Him with all your heart. You see it's a two way thing, the more you seek God,
the more He will seek you. But really it is God all along who puts it in your heart to seek
Him.
Okay, i'll keep that in mind but what about the confirmation bias ? You are not denying it is a factor in believing, are you ? Confirmation bias do induce people to believe wrongly in things that are not true, and you seem to be saying to me that i should use confirmation bias to believe in Jesus. If confirmation bias sometimes induces people to believe incorrect things, how do you make sure it is not the case with your belief in Jesus ? I see it as a problem, don't you ?
