Literal reading of Genesis 1&2

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Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#21
Gen 2 says that Adam was created first, then animals and then, because he found no help, Eve.
Gen 1 says that animals were created before Adam.
--- its neither summary, nor restatement. Its a contradiction, when read literally.
Hi Trofimus, for the moment anyway, let's say you are correct, that Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 contradict one another chronologically where Adam and the animals/birds are concerned. Now we have a GIANT Elephant in the room to deal with, don't we ;) God doesn't make mistakes, so where does that leave us, and where do we go from here? Again, assuming the contradiction is real for the moment, what is your take on it and how have you resolved it (or dealt with it in another way)?

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - I've gotta run, but I'll check back in later today.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#22
Hi Trofimus, for the moment anyway, let's say you are correct, that Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 contradict one another chronologically where Adam and the animals/birds are concerned. Now we have a GIANT Elephant in the room to deal with, don't we ;) God doesn't make mistakes, so where does that leave us, and where do we go from here? Again, assuming the contradiction is real for the moment, what is your take on it and how have you resolved it (or dealt with it in another way)?

Thanks!

~Deut
p.s. - I've gotta run, but I'll check back in later today.
If literal reading does not make a good sense, then the solution is quite simple - not to read it literally. Two poems or two parables can have technical contradictions without any theological problems.

It seems to me that Gen 1 is more poetical/dramatical account (repetitions) and that Gen 2 is more mythological account (tree, breath, talking serpent...), written independently on Gen 1.

In summary, the literal contradiction between Gen1 and Gen2 indicates (to me), that the literal reading of these chapters is not the right one.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
669
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#23
Some people read Genesis 1 and 2 literally and base various teachings on it (flat earth, solid dome, young earth). Basically, they usually come with some kind of scientific conspiracy against God to keep themselves in their faith.

I have some biblical questions about this view:

1. Gen 2:4 says it was all created in 1 day - so, was it 6x 24h days or 1 day?
2. Universe, the planet and covering waters and angels were created before the first day?
3. In Gen 1, man was created after animals, in Gen 2, man was created before animals. Literal days order does not seem to work, there.
4. In Gen 2, Adam had to name all animals and got lonely (impossible to happen in 24 hours)
Chapter 1 is in a limited way, concerned with the process & order of events.

Chapter 2 focuses on the creation of man [on the 6th day] in detail; and is less concerned with process than relationships.

Genesis 1:1 says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”

Later, in Genesis 2:4, it seems that a second, different story of creation begins. Two differing creation accounts is a common misinterpretation of two passages. They describe the same creation event. They do not disagree as to the order in which things were created & do not contradict one another.

Genesis 1, presents the creation of man on the sixth day as the culmination/high point of creation.

Genesis 2, the a temporal sequence to/of the 6th day, when God made man.

Genesis 2 covers only one day, the sixth day & there is no contradiction.

Gen 2:19 (A) 19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field,
(NOTE: Beast of the field MEANS 4 legged animals, exclusive of forest & mountain dwellers. It isn't speaking of all animals. God created ALL ANIMALS in Gen 1:20-23. In Gen 2:19-20, after God had created Adam last. Then put him in the garden, God created a SPECIFIC SUBSET of animals for Adam to name.

God describes the sequence of creation in Genesis 1, then clarifies its most important details, especially of the sixth day, in Genesis 2.
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
1,956
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#24
The point isn’t to be mysterious. The point is to be conclusive. It’s an experiment. You asked the question so I figured you wanted the answer. I don’t care what everybody thinks of “my opinion”. If it was the Holy Spirit that actually taught it to me then it is the only legitimate theory. Everyone else can argue, and validate their conclusions by misinterpreting more Scripture. This was the only way to see. If I taint your thoughts with my opinions then maybe it was more human rationality bringing us to another erroneous conclusion.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
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#25
Chapter 1 is in a limited way, concerned with the process & order of events.

Chapter 2 focuses on the creation of man [on the 6th day] in detail; and is less concerned with process than relationships.

Genesis 1:1 says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”

Later, in Genesis 2:4, it seems that a second, different story of creation begins. Two differing creation accounts is a common misinterpretation of two passages. They describe the same creation event. They do not disagree as to the order in which things were created & do not contradict one another.

Genesis 1, presents the creation of man on the sixth day as the culmination/high point of creation.

Genesis 2, the a temporal sequence to/of the 6th day, when God made man.

Genesis 2 covers only one day, the sixth day & there is no contradiction.

Gen 2:19 (A) 19 And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field,
(NOTE: Beast of the field MEANS 4 legged animals, exclusive of forest & mountain dwellers. It isn't speaking of all animals. God created ALL ANIMALS in Gen 1:20-23. In Gen 2:19-20, after God had created Adam last. Then put him in the garden, God created a SPECIFIC SUBSET of animals for Adam to name.

God describes the sequence of creation in Genesis 1, then clarifies its most important details, especially of the sixth day, in Genesis 2.
In Gen 1, its is said that animals were created first, then Adam.
In Gen 2 it is said that Adam was created first, then animals.

How can you say there is no contradiction when they disagree with each other?
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
669
205
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#26
In Gen 1, its is said that animals were created first, then Adam.
In Gen 2 it is said that Adam was created first, then animals.

How can you say there is no contradiction when they disagree with each other?
Reread the post, I explain your question in plain English.

There is no contradiction, but, a literary device describing the event from the general, to the specific.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
779
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#27
Reread the post, I explain your question in plain English.

There is no contradiction, but, a literary device describing the event from the general, to the specific.
OK, lets say that "beast of the field" is some kind of secondary creation, not the same as the first creation of beasts.

What about birds?

"Let the waters bring forth...every creature that flies with wings ...And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day."
Gen 1:21

"And God formed out of the earth ...all the birds of the sky, and he brought them to Adam"
Gen 2:19

Gen 1 - God created all flying creatures on day 5.
Gen 2 - God created Adam first and then all the birds of the sky.

Gen 1 - birds are from water
Gen 2 - birds are from the ground

So, we have another two contradictions... your thoughts? Or, do you want to say that "birds of the sky" is again some subset of all birds that was created later?
 
Dec 9, 2017
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#28
Light is just a form of electromagnetism. The terminology that is used in the Bible is given to try to explain science, unscientifically. So Spirit, pneuma, we all try to conceptualize, but can’t, because instead of attempting to understand what was written, we litereralize it based on our definition of the word. People’s unwillingness to read the Bible metaphorically, won’t understand it.
Finally, someone who gets it!!!
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
4,507
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#29
Bible is not a Cosmology text book but a book that explains man- how he came to be, how he fell from grace and how is reconciled back to God. So everything including the creation account is in relation to man.

The six day creation account is in relation to man- if man is created in the 6th day, there must be 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th day. The account starts with a general statement (God created the heavens and earth) and quickly narrows down to the conditions that would make it possible for man to live and then last, man becomes the focus from that point onward. So God had man in mind when He created all those things including the heavens.

There are no 2 creation accounts, it is just one, the six days creation, Genesis 2 is already being written in the point of view of man, to bring to the fore how man failed. In genesis 2 you don't expect to see light and moon and stars because it focuses on man's responsibility.

Were the creation days 24hrs? yes, i believe they were because:

1. Each day passed as an evening and morning

2. God creates with Knowledge and wisdom and will
If you know something, how it works, then you won't take billions of years through trial and error. God already had a plan - meaning that the universe already existed in the mind of God so actualization could not take billions or millions of years.

3. 6 days account is not for the creation of heavens and earth but for making life conducive for man here on earth. The heavens and earth were already in place before day one but we also can not say they were created billions or millions of years before.

4. There's no evidence that the earth is old - scientific or not, it is speculation.

5. The concept of time.
Time is a construct of a conscious mind and without the mind, time doesn't exist. It means that if God tells as there was a beginning, we as men can not speculate anything before that, we have no right. Time is not and can not be extrapolated beyond what we experience with our minds.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#31
From my experience people come here to argue their opinions. There is an Asian saying, “When the student is ready, the teacher appears.” There are no students here, only teachers. If somebody wants to know the truth, do what I said. The only one who can teach it is the Holy Spirit. Everyone else just expounds, their spin on fifth hand interpretation. Be blessed.
No opinion of anyone means squat. I come here to find the facts of our Lord and bypass opinions. When I post, it is posting what I found in scripture and I expect the same from others. I could care less what Calvin or the Pope or anyone thinks, I want the facts.

I posted facts that I found in regard to this conversation, it is posting what is in scripture. God speaks to us by using the Hebrew language mostly, I find that it is necessary to trace scripture back to the original language used by the people who first wrote what they heard from God.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,572
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#32
Some people read Genesis 1 and 2 literally and base various teachings on it (flat earth, solid dome, young earth).
A young earth is the obvious result of reading Gen 1 & 2 literally (and taking all Bible chronology seriously), and for those who cannot fathom that both chapters speak of the same series of events, here is how they must be harmonized:

PART I

1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


DAY 1
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


DAY 2
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which wereunder the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


DAY 3
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
2:5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
2:6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.


DAY 4
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#33
PART II

DAY 5
20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.


DAY 6
24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
2:10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
2:11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
2:12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
2:13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
2:14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.


SUMMATION
2:1
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#34
M&M scale, million yeers is liken to a minit.

{1:1} In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. {1:6} And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. {1:7} And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament.{1:8} And God called the firmament Heaven. {1:3} And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. {1:4} And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. {1:15} And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.{1:2} And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. {1:9} And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear. {1:10} And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. {2:6} But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. {2:5} And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. {1:11} And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth. {1:12} And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind. {1:20} And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. {1:21} And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind. {1:22} And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. {1:24} And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind. {1:25} And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind. {2:7} And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. {1:27} So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. {1:28} And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. {1:29} And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. {1:30} And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat. {1:31} And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. {2:4} These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, {2:1} Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
779
113
#35
A young earth is the obvious result of reading Gen 1 & 2 literally (and taking all Bible chronology seriously)
The problem is, that you cant read both Gen 1 and Gen 2 literally, they describe a different order of events.
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
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#36



Excellent sources: I myself do not believe this earth is only 6,000 years old. I think that is a complete fantasy to actually believe such a thing. Which leads us to another hypothesis:

TWICE (once in the Old and once in the New Testament) the term 1 day equals 1,000 years. And we know the Holy Spirit inspired men to write 1 day equals 1,000 years.

So, let's look from Adam to now. We believe that is almost 6,000 years. And if we add the 1,000 year millennium, we have 7,000 years from Adam -OR- we have 1 complete week using 1 day = 1,000 years.

Why then couldn't the 6 day recreation that gives us Adam and Eve be 6,000 years. And since we do not know specifically how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden (no mention of specific time frame), how do we know since Adam was sinless and was created to live forever in his human body...that on the 7th day as God rested...Adam and Eve were not in the Garden for 1,000 years?

That would make 2 perfect weeks:
6,000 years = 6 days of creation
1,000 years = day of rest
6,000 years = From Adam exiting the Garden until now
1,000 years = Millennium

And although we know God is capable of doing anything in any time frame, 1,000 years per day would give a lot of time that matches today's scientific methods for aging tree rings, ice rings, meteorites patterns, rock varnish, and much more...

And of course, if there was a period like the Hebrew Torah teachers teach called "The Beginning," that matches even more scientific methods and dates.

I have no doubt the earth is older than 6,000 years.

Understanding red lines of expansion through out the entire universe and using microwave technology, it's clear God created the universe long before He developed earth!!
 
L

LPT

Guest
#37
Excellent sources: I myself do not believe this earth is only 6,000 years old. I think that is a complete fantasy to actually believe such a thing. Which leads us to another hypothesis:

TWICE (once in the Old and once in the New Testament) the term 1 day equals 1,000 years. And we know the Holy Spirit inspired men to write 1 day equals 1,000 years.

So, let's look from Adam to now. We believe that is almost 6,000 years. And if we add the 1,000 year millennium, we have 7,000 years from Adam -OR- we have 1 complete week using 1 day = 1,000 years.

Why then couldn't the 6 day recreation that gives us Adam and Eve be 6,000 years. And since we do not know specifically how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden (no mention of specific time frame), how do we know since Adam was sinless and was created to live forever in his human body...that on the 7th day as God rested...Adam and Eve were not in the Garden for 1,000 years?

That would make 2 perfect weeks:
6,000 years = 6 days of creation
1,000 years = day of rest
6,000 years = From Adam exiting the Garden until now
1,000 years = Millennium

And although we know God is capable of doing anything in any time frame, 1,000 years per day would give a lot of time that matches today's scientific methods for aging tree rings, ice rings, meteorites patterns, rock varnish, and much more...

And of course, if there was a period like the Hebrew Torah teachers teach called "The Beginning," that matches even more scientific methods and dates.

I have no doubt the earth is older than 6,000 years.

Understanding red lines of expansion through out the entire universe and using microwave technology, it's clear God created the universe long before He developed earth!!
It's interesting to read the geno's, IMO not every person was mentioned and the ones who were was for a reason. 6000 yr old earth purely comes from the notion if someone adds up dates in OT. then whalla a young earth, it is not that easy at all, No where in the bible says its 6000yrs old that concept come from adding up the years mentioned.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,777
513
113
#38
4. There's no evidence that the earth is old - scientific or not, it is speculation.

5. The concept of time.
Time is a construct of a conscious mind and without the mind, time doesn't exist. It means that if God tells as there was a beginning, we as men can not speculate anything before that, we have no right. Time is not and can not be extrapolated beyond what we experience with our minds.
There is evidence that the earth is old, and it does not disagree with scripture. We are told of what was here "in the beginning" but we are not told when this beginning was. We are told that there was something here "in the beginning", that what was here was, in the Hebrew language was owr. That word means the opposite of good. In Hebrew it was choshak. That means it was the opposite of what is good.

Time is something very real. When Eve changed our world from what it was in the garden of Eden, it changed our world so time is part of our dimension. It is not part of the dimension of God for God is eternal or without time. Time brings on death, for even our clocks can be checked for accuracy using atomic time.
 
L

LPT

Guest
#39
Even more interesting is, if a person was to leave earth all concept of time goes right out the window. hopely that person carries a atomic clock, on Venus a person would have to wait 243 earth days to see one sunset on Venus lol...

 

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
1,256
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#40
If literal reading does not make a good sense, then the solution is quite simple - not to read it literally. Two poems or two parables can have technical contradictions without any theological problems.
The "solution" you suggest is ANYTHING but simple ;) Hope to be able to return this evening to talk a bit more about all of this.

~Deut