LIVING IN THE MILLENIA

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Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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Show it in scripture.
I know no other souce for doctrine.
We will all be judged before Jesus,

that every one may receive the things done in his body, 2Cor.5:10

The unrepentant will suffer rejection and wrath and then will die without or by the law Rom.2:8-12. (And the sentence of the law is death, not eternal torment).

Jesus will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts
1Cor.4-5 and likened unrepentance to being bare naked Rev.17-18.

It may not seem to you that this will cause torment, but it does to me.

Those who made satan their god shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb Rev.14:10. This is how the presence of Jesus will affect the unsaved (Psa.18.8, 97.3).

And if you'll notice, those psalms are describing the presence of God as the lake of fire. Please compare Rev.19:20 with 2Thes.2:8, where in one, the beast is destroyed by Christ's presence, but in the other in the lake of fire. The beast isn't going to exist in Jesus's presence "forever".

Neither will satan exist "forever and ever", but that term aion means "age". The devil will be tormented for the thousands of years of his sins, touting himself as a god, suffering the humiliation of the truth, but not eternally. Ages can have an end,

the end of the "world" (age, aion) Mt.24:3
 

Journeyman

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Well, say it again for me, please.
Give me you assent to this statement:

The doctrine of the Trinity is held historically by orthodox Christianity.

“The ONE true God eternally exists as three distinct Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal, co-eternal, and one in essence.
I've already told you I believe God is one God in three distinct persons, termed the Trinity, but not because a counsil said so. I believe it's what the Bible teaches, like this,

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man loveme, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Jn.14:23 (Father. Son and Holy Spirit)
 

Journeyman

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The whole ruling thing is also questionable. Is Jesus really ruling the Church now? If this is Jesus ruling the Church, we are in trouble, as the Church is very evil at present time.
Whats really troubling is how this world has the same attitude toward God having always ruled the world. As far as the church being evil, what a sad day it will be when people hear Jesus say that he never knew them.
 

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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We will all be judged before Jesus,

that every one may receive the things done in his body, 2Cor.5:10

The unrepentant will suffer rejection and wrath and then will die without or by the law Rom.2:8-12. (And the sentence of the law is death, not eternal torment).

Jesus will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts
1Cor.4-5 and likened unrepentance to being bare naked Rev.17-18.

It may not seem to you that this will cause torment, but it does to me.

Those who made satan their god shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb Rev.14:10. This is how the presence of Jesus will affect the unsaved (Psa.18.8, 97.3).

And if you'll notice, those psalms are describing the presence of God as the lake of fire. Please compare Rev.19:20 with 2Thes.2:8, where in one, the beast is destroyed by Christ's presence, but in the other in the lake of fire. The beast isn't going to exist in Jesus's presence "forever".

Neither will satan exist "forever and ever", but that term aion means "age". The devil will be tormented for the thousands of years of his sins, touting himself as a god, suffering the humiliation of the truth, but not eternally. Ages can have an end,

the end of the "world" (age, aion) Mt.24:3
These verses of damnation all refer to those who are reprobate to the faith.
Never were of the church ever.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Neither will satan exist "forever and ever", but that term aion means "age". The devil will be tormented for the thousands of years of his sins, touting himself as a god, suffering the humiliation of the truth, but not eternally. Ages can have an end,
the end of the "world" (age, aion) Mt.24:3
Consider the following (old post) very carefully:

[quoting old post]


Consider the specific phrase below [in distiction from other similar phrases that refer to distinct things]... the blanks are where this particular phrase should be inserted, in the following:

"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),
found in the following verses:

--Galatians 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Timothy 1:17; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 13:21 ("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____" )

--1 Peter 4:11; 1 Peter 5:11; Revelation 1:6 ("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____")

--Revelation 1:18; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 15:7 ("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____" )

--Revelation 5:13; Revelation 7:12; Revelation 11:15; Revelation 22:5 ("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___" )


[which ones of the above look to be saying something like "long-but-limited-time-period"??]


--[and in the 3 verses usually "under question"]

Revelation 14:11 [regarding those who receive the mark and worship the beast and his image]; and...

Revelation 19:3 [regarding the judgment of "the great whore"]; and...

Revelation 20:10 [regarding "the devil" and where "the beast and the false prophet" already are/have been for the 1000 yrs
(and "These two cast ALIVE into" Rev19:20) before Satan/the devil is thereafter "cast into the lake of fire" where, it says, "they [plural] shall be tormented day and night [that is, continually] ____";
and the same place that (of "the dead [/unsaved of all times]") "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into" also
(see Psalm 69:28 where TWO DISTINCT things/actions [/writings] are named);
not to mention where "death and hell/hades" are also to be "cast into" per v.14--this being the equivalent of the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22,[23], found in v.22b... in other words, "hell/hades" (and "death") is what PRECEDES this point in the chronology, and thus what FOLLOWS this point in the chronology is "death and hell/hades DELIVERED UP the DEAD that were in them" for this final carrying out of the sentence, so to speak, of which this passage states that it ('the lake of fire') is "for ever and ever"/"unto the ages of the ages" i.e. there is no "escaping" out of this, no "dying [escape / separation] from this / out-of this," as "death" is the last enemy to be "destroyed [G2673 - katargeó/katargeitai - 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,']" at that time (i.e. the 'second death' / @GWTj point in the chronology)]


[21x total, I believe]


[end quoting old post]



____________

[note to readers: Matt24:3 is not this ^ phrase, but is instead the phrase "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (see also Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50), and is speaking of an entirely distinct point-in-time in the chronology, that is, at the time surrounding Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (i.e. the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23]--i.e. Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:3,5), aka "the age [singular] to come"... (not at the GWTj point in time [the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in that Isaiah passage], to be clear)]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Please compare Rev.19:20 with 2Thes.2:8, where in one, the beast is destroyed by Christ's presence, but in the other in the lake of fire. The beast isn't going to exist in Jesus's presence "forever".
--2Th2:8 - "And then the lawless one will be revealed [<--note this part occurs much earlier than the following part-->], whom the Lord Jesus will consume [G337 - anaireó / anelei - 'to take up, take away, make an end'] with the breath of His mouth and will annul [G2673 - katargeó / katargēsei - 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,'] by the appearing of His coming/ARRIVAL" [i.e. at the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (not GWTj point in time)]


--Rev19:20 - "And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet, the one having done the signs before him, by which he deceived those having received the mark of the beast and those worshiping its image. The two were cast living into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."




I'm not seeing what you're seeing, here.
 

Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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587
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Consider the following (old post) very carefully:

[quoting old post]


Consider the specific phrase below [in distiction from other similar phrases that refer to distinct things]... the blanks are where this particular phrase should be inserted, in the following:

"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),
found in the following verses:

--Galatians 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Timothy 1:17; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 13:21 ("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____" )

--1 Peter 4:11; 1 Peter 5:11; Revelation 1:6 ("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____")

--Revelation 1:18; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 15:7 ("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____" )

--Revelation 5:13; Revelation 7:12; Revelation 11:15; Revelation 22:5 ("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___" )


[which ones of the above look to be saying something like "long-but-limited-time-period"??]


--[and in the 3 verses usually "under question"]

Revelation 14:11 [regarding those who receive the mark and worship the beast and his image]; and...

Revelation 19:3 [regarding the judgment of "the great whore"]; and...

Revelation 20:10 [regarding "the devil" and where "the beast and the false prophet" already are/have been for the 1000 yrs
(and "These two cast ALIVE into" Rev19:20) before Satan/the devil is thereafter "cast into the lake of fire" where, it says, "they [plural] shall be tormented day and night [that is, continually] ____";
and the same place that (of "the dead [/unsaved of all times]") "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into" also
(see Psalm 69:28 where TWO DISTINCT things/actions [/writings] are named);
not to mention where "death and hell/hades" are also to be "cast into" per v.14--this being the equivalent of the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22,[23], found in v.22b... in other words, "hell/hades" (and "death") is what PRECEDES this point in the chronology, and thus what FOLLOWS this point in the chronology is "death and hell/hades DELIVERED UP the DEAD that were in them" for this final carrying out of the sentence, so to speak, of which this passage states that it ('the lake of fire') is "for ever and ever"/"unto the ages of the ages" i.e. there is no "escaping" out of this, no "dying [escape / separation] from this / out-of this," as "death" is the last enemy to be "destroyed [G2673 - katargeó/katargeitai - 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,']" at that time (i.e. the 'second death' / @GWTj point in the chronology)]


[21x total, I believe]


[end quoting old post]



____________

[note to readers: Matt24:3 is not this ^ phrase, but is instead the phrase "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" (see also Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50), and is speaking of an entirely distinct point-in-time in the chronology, that is, at the time surrounding Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (i.e. the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23]--i.e. Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:3,5), aka "the age [singular] to come"... (not at the GWTj point in time [the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words in that Isaiah passage], to be clear)]
I agree the term aion means eternal when it refers to God, the length of his praise and those he bestows immortality on, but I've shown it doesn't always mean that, whether plural or singular, as here (hid from ages Col.1:26), concerning the past.
 

GraceAndTruth

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Sep 28, 2015
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Yes i know, but unbelievers are and will be resurrected to face it at Christs judgement seat.
I find this whole subject superfluous. Christians are not under judgement so I stand 100% on God's justice for the reprobate.
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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--2Th2:8 - "And then the lawless one will be revealed [<--note this part occurs much earlier than the following part-->], whom the Lord Jesus will consume [G337 - anaireó / anelei - 'to take up, take away, make an end'] with the breath of His mouth and will annul [G2673 - katargeó / katargēsei - 'to make completely inoperative' or 'to put out of use,'] by the appearing of His coming/ARRIVAL" [i.e. at the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth (not GWTj point in time)]


--Rev19:20 - "And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet, the one having done the signs before him, by which he deceived those having received the mark of the beast and those worshiping its image. The two were cast living into the lake of fire burning with brimstone."

I'm not seeing what you're seeing, here.
Youre not seeing what I'm seeing because you don't understand that this,

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Rev.20:11

equals this

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 2Pet.3:10
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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I find this whole subject superfluous. Christians are not under judgement so I stand 100% on God's justice for the reprobate.
Well, many believe torment without end is justice. I asked the Lord and have my answer.
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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TDW,
Did you understand how rhe heavens and earth aren't going to be "disolved"..... and the "fly away" 1000 literal years later?

it's the same with the defeat of the beasts army, or satans army. Their defeat isn't 1000 literal year apart, because it's the same war. Our Lord went to war against it and defeated all of them. Now we follow the King into this war and are victorious the same way by his Spirit in us.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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TDW,
Did you understand how rhe heavens and earth aren't going to be "disolved"..... and the "fly away" 1000 literal years later?
First of all (so I understand you)... who is it that is making such a point?? ^ (certainly not me, if you are suggesting I did.)



If you think that has been my point, then you've not grasped the chronology I've been laying out.

But, I'll wait until you've clarified what you've meant by this comment (which is a point I personally have NOT been making, at all--and I'm not sure who has, even).
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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First of all (so I understand you)... who is it that is making such a point?? ^ (certainly not me, if you are suggesting I did.)

If you think that has been my point, then you've not grasped the chronology I've been laying out.

But, I'll wait until you've clarified what you've meant by this comment (which is a point I personally have NOT been making, at all--and I'm not sure who has, even).
Sorry if I misunderstood. You made the point that the beast is "katargeo" at the return of Jesus coming to the earth, not GWT point in time.

So now I'm asking you, do you think the heavens and earth are going to fly away at GWT time, when Jesus already disolved them at his return?

To me, those passages are simply using different terms to describe the same event, not 1000 literal years apart.