Lordship Salvation is false teaching

[crossnote]

We don't have any holiness apart from the anointing of the holy spirit.

I was tallking about our access into His Presence...

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
(Heb 10:19-20)

Through His Blood...not through our 'perfection'.

 

[crossnote]

They (hyper grace people) cannot go 24 hrs without sinning.

As you know I am not hyper grace. But this little statement threw me for a loop.

I can't go 1 min without sinning if sin is defined by the two Greatest Commandments.

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
(Mar 12:30-31)

These are real and i really fall short of them all the time.
So tell me, are you actually sinless for 24 hours? Do you even keep the First one flawlessly?...apart from which is sinning.

 

[ladylynn]

Hyper grace folks just don't understand how defilement separates one from GOD (the OP is maximum hyper grace, btw). And why should they? Their whole doctrine is built on the foundation that sin is not an issue. All they have to do is focus on who they (think they) are and GOD automatically takes care of everything. Sin and defilement don't matter because it's done in the flesh; the spirit is the only thing that matters to them, just like the gnostics. How surprised they are going to be when the lord corrects them.

Your posts are all so very odd. Apparently according to you "I" am supposedly a maximum hyper grace person too., and supposedly, according to you., I have this "attitude" that whatever I do in the flesh does not matter. And that sin is not an issue.

Sin was such an issue that Jesus went to the cross to suffer and die because we were all lost in sin and death. Sin matters very much and needs a solution. I find that solution IN Christ alone. The fact is I'm very careful what I do in the flesh since living according to the flesh is enmity with God. The word "enmity" means (deep rooted mutual hatred) YIKES! Since God loves me because of Jesus and because of His love for me., I love Him because of Jesus., there is NO "enmity" between me and God anymore.

For you to say there is ....is totally wrong because it's unbiblical. Just like most of your assertions of what I and other believers believe here on CC concerning grace. All those who do not have Christ as Savior are already condemned.,defiled., at enmity with God.,outside the family of God.

Even if they don't want to be they have to believe what the Bible says that Jesus is the only way. So we need to tell them just like someone told us that they have to do as the Bible says and get JESUS. Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life and no man comes to the Father but by Him. Jesus will reconcile them to God. (not good works or good intentions else He would not have sent His Son to be our reconciliation.)

What you continually have a problem with is seeing how "grace" is the way God has dealt with us now in Christ. Unconditional love and favor with and for the sons of God. "Behold what manner of love the Father has given unto us" It looks as though you have not yet beheld what manner of love the Father has given unto us. And you need to. And when you do., you will no longer fight against the grace that is given to all those in Christ Jesus.

 

[God4me]

Romans 5:18-19 (KJV)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


If just these two verses (please read them) could be understood by "loadship" believers, they would see how wrong their doctrine is and maybe come to the truth, or at least be in the right direction.

These two verses show .....


1. We are all condemned
2. Only ONE person has ever been "righteous"
3. His righteousness is available to all men
4. "Justification of life" is a "free gift" made available by His obedience


There is no other possible way to be "justified" but by faith in Him! (Romans 4.3, 5:1, Gal. 2:16, Eph. 8)
"There are none righteous, no not one." (Romans 3:10,23)


Jesus is the only way. If we have placed our trust in our own righteousness, we have rejected Him (Romans 10:1-5). Salvation is a SPIRITUAL work of God (Col. 2:11) done when we place ALL our trust in Jesus and HIS "finished work". We are "born of God" (John 3:6) when we have believed the gospel, not when we prove something to God who has already told us our righteousness is like "filthy rags" in His site! (Isaiah 64:6)


After we have been saved, His spirit lives in us and will guide us in how to live and if we follow Him (Romans 12:1-2), we become His "disciples" which is not required for salvation. God said salvation is a "free gift". (Romans 3:24-26, 5:15-21, 6:23)


Bottom line.....
If you are trusting in your own righteous works of obedience as "evidence" that you are saved, the bible says you are either lost or deceived!
(Matt. 10:10-13, Romans 10:1-5, Galatians 3)

Yet Saul, [The Apostle Paul], was saved the moment he accepted Jesus as Lord, Acts 9: 6. And he told the keeper of the prison to be saved, he must believe on the LORD Jesus Christ.
Jesus has to be Lord, either you will confess Him as Lord, in this life, or when you meet Him, Phil 2: 10--11.

 

[ladylynn]

There are really only two levels of holiness described in scripture: holy and most holy. GOD dwells in the latter.

Never heard of "levels" of holiness let alone only 2 levels. God dwells in the "latter" ?? Your posts are all so very odd. So., our holiness is going to be different than God's? Where are people supposed to be getting this holiness you are talking about? How can holiness be "attained" apart from God? How do you set yourself apart on your own? How do you live a 'holy' life if God has not set you apart in Christ? Sounds extremely religious to me.,of the man made sort.

 

[JustWhoIAm]

Never heard of "levels" of holiness let alone only 2 levels. God dwells in the "latter" ?? Your posts are all so very odd. So., our holiness is going to be different than God's? Where are people supposed to be getting this holiness you are talking about? How can holiness be "attained" apart from God? How do you set yourself apart on your own? How do you live a 'holy' life if God has not set you apart in Christ? Sounds extremely religious to me.,of the man made sort.

Walk in love.

Beyond that, if it itches, scratch it.

*shrug*

 

[PeterJens]

Walking with the Lord has two steps, which if talked about wrongly are easily missed.
The whole of the practise of the temple, priests, sacrifices reinforced these concepts

1. A holy thing is holy until it is defiled. Once defiled it must be destroyed or cleansed.
2. Unholy things cannot enter Gods presence.

These are the two themes running throughout the temple law, the daily practises.
Now when we talk of defilement they are obvious things, things of disease, danger, sin.

The priests had to marry virgins. Holy things could not just be taken out and used anywhere.

We are the Holy people, bought at great price, cleansed, made whole, in Gods presence,
in dwelt by His spirit.

Jesus talked if you do not sort out your heart it defiles you. The pharisees talked about having
clean hands, of washing things so they were clean so they did not get defiled.

Every Jew knew defilement was the issue. How many christians talk or think like this now?
And likewise we have been talking about walking in righteousness or holiness.

So defilement matters, it is why sin matters, and future sin as it happens is defilement and
that needs sorting out through repentance, confession and forgiveness.

As soon as your language is about judgement, salvation you already do not understand defilement.

If this condemns you seek the Lord, repent, confess and find His love, and become Holy, washed,
pure clean and blameless. This is the gospel, that we can become like the priests who entered
the Holy of Holies because Jesus has made us pure.

 

[PeterJens]

Holiness - If you dwell with God, this is where you need to be.

Why would you bring sin here? Why would you condemn yourself over things God does not?
If a priest in the temple is regarded as holy washed, clean, pure, why are you not?

What people forget, we go beyond Gods concepts and go OCD.
We talk about our actions yet find it hard to love different people, people who annoy,
who do things not in our style, who smell, who look and talk differently, who come from
a different background.

We find our families hard, and hold grudges, bitterness, anger, resentment.
These things could lead to defiling actions, they break the Lords heart, because they do
not reflect the real world or love and its intentions.

These are the planks in our own eyes when we discuss doctrinal specks.

 

[PeterJens]

accuser of the brethern

psalm6819 - My point is if sin, real sin, is unrepented of, continual, something that possesses you, you need help.

You need help from Jesus, from friends, from counsellors. No sin is not destructive, evil, that does not lead to death.
Watch an alcoholic loose his friends, his job, his family, his house, his money and last his life. It takes years and I have seen it happen.

This is what shinning a light is, it shows up sin. Defilement matters. There is no compromise. We are called to preach the word to all people, to bring them to Holiness, set apart for the Lord and to not defile it once found.

If this is being the accuser, then the people are not following God, and are not Holy, and are not worthy of His presence.

To even talk like this comes from a failed people who have given up or never arrived.
These people need to repent of their sin which they know of, confess it and get right with God and He will heal them.

For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.
Matt 13:15

Dear Lord, help your people to see their sin, to humble themselves, repent and walk in your glorious light.
What they say is so hard is not burdensome, or grueling but freedom and great joy. May they know
your peace and forgiveness if they can but reach out and ask and you will heal them.
To the glory of your name, Amen

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is what the apostle Paul prays for fellow Christians. He is not "sin-conscious" - he is being Christ-conscious. Religion is a very poor substitute for the Lord Jesus Christ.

It sounds so pious but in reality it has a form of godliness but neglects the power to effect a real change by the Holy Spirit inside of us. Change only comes by believing in what Christ has already done for us in His great love and sacrifice for us.

Ephesians 1:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might



Ephesians 3:14-20 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,

[SUP]15 [/SUP] from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,

[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,

[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

[SUP]18 [/SUP] may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.

[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us,

 

[PeterJens]

"Change only comes by believing in what Christ has already done for us in His great love and sacrifice for us."

This is a very exclusive statement. It is also a lie. Everyday you are changing, being influenced, parts of your body renewed, you do actions, you sow to the Lord or to something else. Belief is one important part of life, but your actions make up life itself, whether in thought or in deed. As a Holy child of God, it is your privilege to share His love with others, to bring part of heaven to earth, to be Christ to those around you.

Now what we are looking for is the presence of the Lord in our lives, and in those we meet. If you do not dwell with the Lord, in open communion what are you bringing. If you do not know how to approach the throne, or that Christ is your Lord and you are a pure blameless vessel, are you sharing life or death?

There is so much more than just belief, yet to those who feel sinful, rejected, forever locked out, maybe they are just confirming they have yet to properly understand who Christ is.

 

[Grace777x70]

We are transformed by the Holy Spirit when we look at Jesus as in a mirror - when we view Jesus - we see our true selves reflected back because we are in Christ and we see the glory of Jesus ( glory means = to have a good opinion ) - we are transformed from one glory to the next glory.

As we embrace God's good opinion of who He is in His goodness to us ( His glory ) - we too take on His glory and start to have His good opinion of ourselves because He made us to be in Christ.

This is how we are transformed - by beholding Christ's glory which is His good opinion of Himself and how He views us in His dear Son.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

We are to fix our eyes on Jesus and lay aside the sin which so easily besets us - which is unbelief in what God has said. The whole book of Hebrews is talking about the sin of unbelief from start to finish.

Hebrews 12:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Scriptureplz]

Walking with the Lord has two steps, which if talked about wrongly are easily missed.
The whole of the practise of the temple, priests, sacrifices reinforced these concepts

1. A holy thing is holy until it is defiled. Once defiled it must be destroyed or cleansed.
2. Unholy things cannot enter Gods presence.

These are the two themes running throughout the temple law, the daily practises.
Now when we talk of defilement they are obvious things, things of disease, danger, sin.

The priests had to marry virgins. Holy things could not just be taken out and used anywhere.

We are the Holy people, bought at great price, cleansed, made whole, in Gods presence,
in dwelt by His spirit.

Jesus talked if you do not sort out your heart it defiles you. The pharisees talked about having
clean hands, of washing things so they were clean so they did not get defiled.

Every Jew knew defilement was the issue. How many christians talk or think like this now?
And likewise we have been talking about walking in righteousness or holiness.

So defilement matters, it is why sin matters, and future sin as it happens is defilement and
that needs sorting out through repentance, confession and forgiveness.

As soon as your language is about judgement, salvation you already do not understand defilement.

If this condemns you seek the Lord, repent, confess and find His love, and become Holy, washed,
pure clean and blameless. This is the gospel, that we can become like the priests who entered
the Holy of Holies because Jesus has made us pure.

"1. A holy thing is holy until it is defiled. Once defiled it must be destroyed or cleansed.
2. Unholy things cannot enter Gods presence."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is what I see as the problem with many people here. What you believe is you "clean" yourselves. This is not what the bible teaches! You can't clean yourselves! You can only be cleansed and it is ONLY by His Blood! If you are trusting in your own cleansing, you HAVE NOT BEEN CLEANSED BY THE BLOOD!

Stop now and read this scripture and think about what it means for every man that has ever lived. We have an opportunity to have mercy shown us! It is only by that mercy and grace that has been provided that ANY MAN can possibly be saved. It will NEVER be because of your obedience. Read Gods Word!!!

Hebrews 10:10-14 (KJV)

[SUP]10 [/SUP]By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Do you understand it is by HIS sacrifice that we are made perfect? It has nothing to do with how much you THINK you sacrifice!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

"Change only comes by believing in what Christ has already done for us in His great love and sacrifice for us."

This is a very exclusive statement. It is also a lie. Everyday you are changing, being influenced, parts of your body renewed, you do actions, you sow to the Lord or to something else. Belief is one important part of life, but your actions make up life itself, whether in thought or in deed. As a Holy child of God, it is your privilege to share His love with others, to bring part of heaven to earth, to be Christ to those around you.

Now what we are looking for is the presence of the Lord in our lives, and in those we meet. If you do not dwell with the Lord, in open communion what are you bringing. If you do not know how to approach the throne, or that Christ is your Lord and you are a pure blameless vessel, are you sharing life or death?

There is so much more than just belief, yet to those who feel sinful, rejected, forever locked out, maybe they are just confirming they have yet to properly understand who Christ is.

Notice what the focus is on - the past. This was clarified for me recently while reading a blog that refutes the errors of hyper grace, and an ensuing response to it from a hyper grace apologist. It's astonishing that the commenter has no clue that Christ's life along with his death is what saves

[Blog author's point #]4. Their Christology is defective. For them salvation is centred only on the death of Christ. In the NT, the whole incarnate life of the Son is salvific.

R[esponse from hyper grace apologist] : Not sure how the other parts of Jesus’ life is salvific according to this. The death is the redemptive part. Just like the animal sacrifices. It’s really the death that means everything. Of course the animal had to be without defect, so Jesus must be sinless at death. Other than that, no comment as without elaboration I am not clear what is meant here.​

But this makes sense seeing how they view the matter of forgiveness. Everything (past, present. future sin) was forgiven at the cross, so there is no need to seek reconciliation now or in the future with the one who purchased redemption and lives forever to reconcile all who believe through his blood.

Also, it makes sense how they rarely (if at all) say to focus on the living Christ, but always say to focus on who they are in Christ (their identity).

 

[Scriptureplz]

"Notice what the focus is on - the past"

Yes, salvation was provided over 2,000 years ago by One Man for all who trust in HIS sacrifice. That is what the bible teaches, but you had rather talk about what man teaches.

 

[Grace777x70]

(snip)

But this makes sense seeing how they view the matter of forgiveness. Everything (past, present. future sin) was forgiven at the cross, so there is no need to seek reconciliation now or in the future with the one who purchased redemption and lives forever to reconcile all who believe through his blood.


Also, it makes sense how they rarely (if at all) say to focus on the living Christ, but always say to focus on who they are in Christ (their identity).

That is absolutely hilarious! If grace believers do anything, it is to point people to Jesus and all that He has done and to live by His life inside of us now. How many times have you heard people say that it is His life that bears His fruit in us as we are in Christ now?

As far as seeking reconciliation - we are called "believers" for a reason. We have reconciliation through Christ.

Romans 5:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

 

[PeterJens]

"1. A holy thing is holy until it is defiled. Once defiled it must be destroyed or cleansed.
2. Unholy things cannot enter Gods presence."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is what I see as the problem with many people here. What you believe is you "clean" yourselves. This is not what the bible teaches! You can't clean yourselves! You can only be cleansed and it is ONLY by His Blood! If you are trusting in your own cleansing, you HAVE NOT BEEN CLEANSED BY THE BLOOD!

You are right, we are cleansed through the sacrifice, which is Christ on the cross applied to defilement.
But once applied the object is then Holy, you are restored.

What people is missing is they find it hard to accept they are now pure, holy, blameless people, acceptable to the Father in Christ. Once in this place it is to walk in the Spirit, to gain healing and help for areas in their lives that need resolving.

The other view is people are so contaminated they actually never arrive at a point of acceptability and self condemnation always tells them they have failed. Even when talking to the church in Corinth this was not Pauls approach.

It was repent to the calling and return to the place you were before. Many here appear to believe they have never actually arrived in the first place, even for one second. Their consciences and minds continually fire off stuff that takes it away from them.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here's some background on this controversy between Free Grace and Lordship Salvation doctrines > Lordship salvation controversy

It began as a response by John MacArthur to the infiltration of pernicious Free Grace doctrine into the church, that was (is) promoted largely by faculty and alumni of the Dallas Theological Institute. Free Grace holds that faith is a passive persuasion in Christ as messiah, and righteous behavior is not at all required to be saved. As an example, a Free Grace believer who has commented here said that a person can believe one time, then apostatize and still be saved.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That is absolutely hilarious! If grace believers do anything, it is to point people to Jesus and all that He has done and to live by His life inside of us now. How many times have you heard people say that it is His life that bears His fruit in us as we are in Christ now?

AS much as you try to equivocate, it's clear that your focus is always on one's identity, not the living Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

AS much as you try to equivocate, it's clear that your focus is always on one's identity, not the living Christ.

Nonsense! Grace believers are constantly lifting up Christ and what He has done for us including making us new creations in Christ. That we are one with Christ Himself now - one spirit with Him.

The mystery Paul said is - Christ in you!

I can see that the gospel is still a complete mystery to you. Hopefully you will see it soon with all those that are trying to help you.

1 John 4:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.


To say they don't focus on Christ is devoid of any understanding at all. Has any body here on CC told people to stop focusing on our own self-effort and works and to focus on Christ instead? Have you ever heard this before being said?

I have seen it 100's of times here and so has everyone else.