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Asking. Really.
I didn't know it was called "Lordship Salvation" before. I'm not even sure now, which side is the "Lordship Salvation" side -- those that think works are necessary or those who think it comes naturally. (I'm not of either camp.) But, yeah, this one seems argued about often. In reformed circles it tends to be less of an argument and more of a "Yeah, I agree, but did you also know that..."" and then the different guys really get all excited to learn even more. (And then it turns into a big, "I know more than you do" contest, which is about where the head slap belongs, IMO.) But once you go outside Reformed circles, it just keeps circling around to
No, you're wrong.
No, you're wrong.
No, you're wrong.
No, you're a heretic.
Which honestly, seems to be about where this post started, so there's no place to go but raise the wrath up to unbelievable decimals.
And all that? And, surely it ends up no matter what you believe with something like this, it still comes down to God does his thing. He saves and gives our hearts the change where work becomes part of the supernatural side of us.
It's kind of like free will versus God chooses. I will always believe God chose now, and it's a fun argument, however when he chose me he landed me right into the freewill camp. I've been saved and been part of God's adopted family no matter what I believe, and yet a lot of people have thought I was a heretic for believing both sides of that one. God chose me even when I don't know everything just right.
Why is this any different?
I see the battlelines drawn, but some of the combatants don't seem to get they're on the same side -- God's side. Sometimes I think you know what you're doing. (Usually I think I know what your doing. No guarantee how often I'm right in my thinking though. lol) You seem like one of those people who gets this one doesn't matter for redemption, and yet I see you arguing it hard to try to convince others. Why?
Yes. Really asking.
I didn't know it was called "Lordship Salvation" before. I'm not even sure now, which side is the "Lordship Salvation" side -- those that think works are necessary or those who think it comes naturally. (I'm not of either camp.) But, yeah, this one seems argued about often. In reformed circles it tends to be less of an argument and more of a "Yeah, I agree, but did you also know that..."" and then the different guys really get all excited to learn even more. (And then it turns into a big, "I know more than you do" contest, which is about where the head slap belongs, IMO.) But once you go outside Reformed circles, it just keeps circling around to
No, you're wrong.
No, you're wrong.
No, you're wrong.
No, you're a heretic.
Which honestly, seems to be about where this post started, so there's no place to go but raise the wrath up to unbelievable decimals.
And all that? And, surely it ends up no matter what you believe with something like this, it still comes down to God does his thing. He saves and gives our hearts the change where work becomes part of the supernatural side of us.
It's kind of like free will versus God chooses. I will always believe God chose now, and it's a fun argument, however when he chose me he landed me right into the freewill camp. I've been saved and been part of God's adopted family no matter what I believe, and yet a lot of people have thought I was a heretic for believing both sides of that one. God chose me even when I don't know everything just right.
Why is this any different?
I see the battlelines drawn, but some of the combatants don't seem to get they're on the same side -- God's side. Sometimes I think you know what you're doing. (Usually I think I know what your doing. No guarantee how often I'm right in my thinking though. lol) You seem like one of those people who gets this one doesn't matter for redemption, and yet I see you arguing it hard to try to convince others. Why?
Yes. Really asking.
Arguing about things we aren't sure of? Sounds like a guy thing, while the ladies in the stands are cheering 'peace, love' unify'. LOL
No, I've been through this in a Reformed Baptist Church loosely affiliated with MacArthur and it drove me to uncertainty. You know, 'have I submitted enough'?, am I 'dedicating myself enough'? all ending up with navel gazing...and then to comfort me I was handed a book of John Bunyan where he wrestled with doubt.
No, I don't take it too seriously anymore. I've resigned myself to the fact that when Jesus comes to us He comes as both Lord and Savior.
Perhaps it's a matter of one side wanting to see how close they can stretch the boundary of sinning and the other side wanting to see if they can catch them and call them a non believer.
No, I've been through this in a Reformed Baptist Church loosely affiliated with MacArthur and it drove me to uncertainty. You know, 'have I submitted enough'?, am I 'dedicating myself enough'? all ending up with navel gazing...and then to comfort me I was handed a book of John Bunyan where he wrestled with doubt.
No, I don't take it too seriously anymore. I've resigned myself to the fact that when Jesus comes to us He comes as both Lord and Savior.
Perhaps it's a matter of one side wanting to see how close they can stretch the boundary of sinning and the other side wanting to see if they can catch them and call them a non believer.
Ugh.
No.
I'll type this for the umpteenth time, and for the second time in THIS THREAD:
Sinning is dumb and destructive - God doesn't want us to sin because it's bad for us and hinders His Fruit from coming forth in our lives which in turn brings others into the Kingdom.
As for judgement for sin, if one is in Christ, there is no judgement from God for sinning - every sin has been bled and died for at the Cross. If you are in Christ, God is not holding your sins against you - He casts them as far as the East is from the West and CHOOSES to remember them no more.
God had a big enough problem with sin that He came in the flesh, died a grisly death, rose from the dead, and sits as our Perfect High Priest to intercede for us when we do sin.
Will God allow natural consequences for sinning to happen to us? Yep, and some people view that as God's judgement when it's just the results of their own bad choices. John Wayne and Paul said it well:
D
Yeah, I'm a peace, love, unity kinda gal. (Should I get back to what I think of Joseph Prince again. lol)
Okay, that's what I was asking. These kind of arguments can be fun, it's just that you seemed so determined to convince. Glad to know we're sort of on the same page. (This is more like golf to me. Not my kind of fun, but free will v. God's choice is more like Monopoly. Pull out the board, and if I have the time, I'm in the thick of it.)
Okay, that's what I was asking. These kind of arguments can be fun, it's just that you seemed so determined to convince. Glad to know we're sort of on the same page. (This is more like golf to me. Not my kind of fun, but free will v. God's choice is more like Monopoly. Pull out the board, and if I have the time, I'm in the thick of it.)
Not my words but Paul's, who said.....
1 Corinthians 15:32
If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
But the weapons of our warfare to fight the beasts are not carnal, and our fight is not against flesh and blood, but rather spiritual wickedness.
1 Corinthians 15:32
If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
But the weapons of our warfare to fight the beasts are not carnal, and our fight is not against flesh and blood, but rather spiritual wickedness.
S
You know that confusion you had at the beginning? "Read OP and can't find anything about Lordship salvation...."?
Yeah, even after reading this post, I'm afraid I still don't get what "Lordship Salvation" means.
Yeah, even after reading this post, I'm afraid I still don't get what "Lordship Salvation" means.
S
♦ Lordship “salvation” Defined
By the ExPreacherMan Administrators
God’s Word clearly states that salvation is by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.Ephesians 2:8-9: [8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Lordship “salvation” (LS) is the unsupportable and unbiblical belief that the PERFORMANCE of good works, the PROMISE of good works, or the EVIDENCE of good works MUST accompany faith in Christ in order to establish, or provide evidence, that such faith has resulted in eternal life.
LS can be overt (one must forsake all of his sins and follow Christ in obedience and discipleship in order to be saved) or VERY SUBTLE (one’s behavior will change once he is saved, one must desire to get better in order to be saved, one must want to have a relationship with Jesus in order to be saved, or one must go beyond mere intellectual assent and actively respond – do something (such as Rahab opening the door to spies, or Abraham offering Isaac on the altar) in response to God’s message in order to be saved).
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that any of these man-made conditions are necessary for one to receive eternal life. And yet, such things are taught by many churches, ministries, and pastors throughout professing Christendom.
We expose the people who promote LS, because they:
• Keep people lost (Luke 8-12; 2 Corinthians 4:4);
• Are accursed (Galatians 1:9);
• Frustrate grace (Galatians 2:21);
• Bewitch believers, rendering the believers ineffective in their Christian lives (Galatians 5:4); and
• Are to be marked and avoided (Romans 16:17 and 16:18)
In addition to the above, LS causes people to focus on themselves, rather than on Christ, for assurance of salvation.• Are accursed (Galatians 1:9);
• Frustrate grace (Galatians 2:21);
• Bewitch believers, rendering the believers ineffective in their Christian lives (Galatians 5:4); and
• Are to be marked and avoided (Romans 16:17 and 16:18)
We cannot know whether or not someone influenced by LS is saved. In some cases, they may have never even heard the Gospel presented clearly, and may have never believed in Jesus as their Savior. In other cases, they may have believed in Jesus as their Savior, but have received bad teaching that causes them ongoing confusion. We cannot tell which is which. But, in any case, they need our prayers and they need a clear presentation of the gospel.
One wonders why so many thousands of seeking souls flock to the false message of LS. Could it be a cultic draw by charismatic personalities who manipulate scripture, relish the attention, fame and (incidentally) the dollars cleverly conned from their followers?
Or, could it be that they walk into the nearest church, and they are sold a false LS gospel? After all, people naturally want to trust authority figures. In either case, the person who is fed false LS teaching is being steered away from the truth.
Although this list is by no means complete, following are some of the terms that are associated with Lordship salvation as being requirements for receiving eternal life:
“Repent of your sins”
“Turn from your sins”
“Be willing to turn from your sins”
“Put Christ on the throne of your life”
“Give your life to Christ”
“Commit to follow Christ”
Some proponents of Lordship salvation will allow that salvation is by Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, but then will insist that a saved person will show signs of being saved, such as sinning less and doing good works. If these “signs” are not present, they will insist, or at least heavily suspect, that a person has never believed in Christ as Savior.
This thought process can never lead to assurance of salvation, because it is always dependent on how one thinks he is DOING at any given point in time (we put DOING in all caps, because it is a work). Other folks think that God knows whether or not they are TRYING (we put TRYING in all caps, because it is a work). Trying will not help you attain eternal life. Eternal life is a free gift, received when someone trusts in Christ alone for it.
I'm not offering anything. Just witnessing what the bible actually says. If you don't think that it is good news without all of the spinning, twisting, ignoring and redefining that hyper grace does, then so be it. It will judge you on the last day.
I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren, like thee [Moses]; and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them as I shall command him. And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him. Deuteronomy 18:18-19
And if anyone hears my words and does not observe [them], I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. John 12:47-49
And if anyone hears my words and does not observe [them], I will not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not accept my words has one who judges him; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. For I have not spoken from myself, but the Father himself who sent me has commanded me what I should say and what I should speak. John 12:47-49
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Yet you so rarely actually refer to the Bible . . .
There is no spinning on our side. Here's the message of grace in a nutshell, broken down into its very simplest form:
Boom, done.
Add the ingredient of the Work of Christ to the above passages. Both passages point to the Good News of the Work of Christ.
Yet you insist on trying to turn it into Bad News by making it all about judgement and not all about the Work of CHRIST who saves us completely from that judgement.
-JGIG
There is no spinning on our side. Here's the message of grace in a nutshell, broken down into its very simplest form:
- Believe on the One God sent, receiving the gifts of forgiveness, righteousness, and New Life
- Love one another
- We love God because He first loved us
- Grace teaches us to say no to ungodliness
- Love is the Fruit of (produced by) the Spirit, which we bear
Boom, done.
Add the ingredient of the Work of Christ to the above passages. Both passages point to the Good News of the Work of Christ.
Yet you insist on trying to turn it into Bad News by making it all about judgement and not all about the Work of CHRIST who saves us completely from that judgement.
-JGIG
Unfortunately what you say here is true...
The gospel will remain a mystery as long as HRFTD believes that we are not born again until we get new bodies.
The whole new creation in Christ is a mystery which is why he balks at the righteousness of God in Christ that is given to us as a gift ( Romans 5:17 ).
This makes so many scriptures about righteousness void - and which means people need to "do things to maintain" their righteousness. This is anti-the gospel.
1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
This is why many say that his version is NOT the gospel of the grace of Christ and the reason why many of us are quite concerned about him.
The gospel will remain a mystery as long as HRFTD believes that we are not born again until we get new bodies.
The whole new creation in Christ is a mystery which is why he balks at the righteousness of God in Christ that is given to us as a gift ( Romans 5:17 ).
This makes so many scriptures about righteousness void - and which means people need to "do things to maintain" their righteousness. This is anti-the gospel.
1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
This is why many say that his version is NOT the gospel of the grace of Christ and the reason why many of us are quite concerned about him.
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