LORDSHIP SALVATION

[P1LGR1M]

thats why no one will have an excuse (see romans 1 not only do they know they are a sinner they know they are rightfully judged..


Rom 1: [SUP]32 [/SUP]who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.




so how can you repent (change my mind) about being a sinner, and rightly judged, when I ALREADY KNOW??

It's right there in the Scripture you quote...you know because God revealed it to you.

But you fail to see that.

You present this but you do not see God's Sovereignty in revelation.

Those in view are those who have had revealed to them the truth, and the contrast is between those who respond and those who reject:


Romans 1:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


So let's look at your statement again:

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

Every person knows they are a sinner,

No, every person does not know they are a sinner...that is the reason why we maintain God's Sovereignty in Salvation, showing that the Word of God always teaches that man is without ability and no one can even understand his condition except Sovereign God initiate his awareness.

You are teaching a Free Will doctrine...and you don't even know it.

And when we look at MacArthur's teachings...he gets it right:


The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation

There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.


No-Lordship Salvationists...get it wrong.

Man has no ability to understand the spiritual things of God...that is made abundantly clear in Scripture. The primary reason why people fail to understand that and merge Free Will into their Theology is simply because they do not understand the true Sovereignty of God in the first place.

Salvation is wholly the Work of God, and those things associates with salvation are generated by God.

That means repentance, confession of sins, and then...the good works we were created in Christ Jesus to perform.

And MacArthur gets that right:


Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.

Link

And those who have been swept into the No-Lordship Salvation Camp deny some very fundamental truths.

They first ignore the distinction between what is taught as the means of salvation with what is shown as the result of salvation.

God did not save us to remain in sin, and those who do...should be questioned as to the genuine nature of their profession.

The No-Lordship Salvation Camp promotes easy believism, and that is the very thing Lordship Salvation addresses.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

see what happens when you take a word and give it a religious interpretation.

I do, why do you think I got involved in the first place.

Untruths and misrepresentation of believers of any form should not be tolerated in a Christian Community, they should be addressed.

Not liked.

YOU SCREW IT ALL UP!!

Nice.


Continued...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's right there in the Scripture you quote...you know because God revealed it to you.

But you fail to see that.

You present this but you do not see God's Sovereignty in revelation.

Those in view are those who have had revealed to them the truth, and the contrast is between those who respond and those who reject:


Romans 1:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


So let's look at your statement again:





No, every person does not know they are a sinner...

Hmm, Thats not what God says

As usual. You post one aspect of a passage, but refuse to post it all. Why were you afraid you might be proven wrong?

lets continue reading romans 1 (and even the passage I posted earlier, which you refused to even discuss)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; [SUP]29 [/SUP]being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[SUP][c][/SUP] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, [SUP]30 [/SUP]backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [SUP]31 [/SUP]undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[SUP][d][/SUP] unmerciful; [SUP]32[/SUP]who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

Yes, They know these things are sin, and Yes they know they do them, and Yes they know they are judged.

 

[ladylynn]

Honestly, I can't keep up with this discussion and hats of to you Eternally-Grateful for trying., but I do know this about the lordship salvation that JM teaches, I could not nor could our family live under the harsh legalistic teachings of John MacGarther.

Pilgrim, I must amend my first words to you in another thread when I countered crossnote about your long posts and said they were helpful. no., they are like crosswalk said, waaay too long and take way too much time to try and follow. And also, while I'm on this subject, I don't think it is proper to insult ember the way you did. She is a Christian lady and if you wrote to me that way, I would also stop responding. Please be a Christian gentleman.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I do, why do you think I got involved in the first place.

Untruths and misrepresentation of believers of any form should not be tolerated in a Christian Community, they should be addressed.

Not liked.

You admit you change the meaning of a word and give it a religious interpretation?

Thus proving your a false prophet?

thats what you just admitted to?

 

[P1LGR1M]

and making a conscious choice to turn from sin (Luke 13:3, 5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9),

How can I turn from sin when I am in the flesh, and have no power to do anything?

You can't. That is a Bible Basic you need to better understand.

and making a conscious choice to turn from sin (Luke 13:3, 5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9),

Now your adding law and turning from sin a requirement to be saved,

More false witness.

Point out anything I have said, in any post, or any thread...that shows I teach a legalistic form of salvation.

You can't. Your No-Lordship fellows can't.

My Doctrine is consistent and rooted in the very Word of God.

That is why I have liberty to quote Scripture and you guys continually ignore that which is posted.

Let's see Biblical examples of making a conscious decision to turn from sin:


2 Peter 3:9

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


Acts 3:26

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


Romans 11:26

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


No-Lordship Salvation denies that God saves us from sin.

It suggests to the nominal professor that they can be saved...and maintain un ungodly lifestyle.

It is liberal Theology, and embraced by many who also endorse the murder of infants and the homosexual lifestyle (and these are just two very prominent results of No-Lordship Salvation, we can certainly see it's impact in the greasy grace crowd).


Continued...

 

[ladylynn]

Honestly, I can't keep up with this discussion and hats of to you Eternally-Grateful for trying., but I do know this about the lordship salvation that JM teaches, I could not nor could our family live under the harsh legalistic teachings of John MacGarther.

Pilgrim, I must amend my first words to you in another thread when I countered crossnote about your long posts and said they were helpful. no., they are like crossnote said, waaay too long and take way too much time to try and follow. And also, while I'm on this subject, I don't think it is proper to insult ember the way you did. She is a Christian lady and if you wrote to me that way, I would also stop responding. Please be a Christian gentleman.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You can't. That is a Bible Basic you need to better understand.

See what I mean.. You said I need to understand what I already proved I understood.

Be gone dude. I am done playing these games.

Crossnote is right, your in a cult and trying to defend your cult leader at all costs. and all you do is keeping making yourself look bad

 

[P1LGR1M]

Honestly, I can't keep up with this discussion and hats of to you Eternally-Grateful for trying., but I do know this about the lordship salvation that JM teaches, I could not nor could our family live under the harsh legalistic teachings of John MacGarther.

Pilgrim, I must amend my first words to you in another thread when I countered crossnote about your long posts and said they were helpful. no., they are like crosswalk said, waaay too long and take way too much time to try and follow. And also, while I'm on this subject, I don't think it is proper to insult ember the way you did. She is a Christian lady and if you wrote to me that way, I would also stop responding. Please be a Christian gentleman.

Great, you seek to make friends, I will seek to make disciples for Christ.

But thanks for showing that your position can change for the sake of friendship, rather than the truth of the Gospel.

You cannot possibly charge Lordship Salvation as error.

And as far as the posts being long, understand...these posts are not for those indoctrinated in liberal views, they are for those who want to understand the true danger of No-Lordship Salvation.

One does not have to embrace Lordship Salvation to understand that the teachings found in the No-Lordship Camp are in grave error and conflict with the Gospel of Christ.

By this post you are acknowledging that you are okay with people false accusing other believers and you do not feel they need to be held accountable for their actions; that true faith is not always accompanied by repentance; that Sovereign God is powerless to do what He says He will do when He saves people, which is produce fruit in their lives; that Scripture is in error in it's teachings that good trees produce good fruit, and evil trees produce evil fruit; that Scripture does not teach that among believers there will be false professors who look identical to Christians but are not.

These are called tares.

And the principle error behind some of these basic denials we see in the No-Lordship Camp is a fundamental understanding of the Sovereignty of God in salvation.

You acknowledge the member's belief that...everybody knows they are a sinner.

So, okay, do what you feel is necessary, but, I would ask you that you consider the significance of the New Birth in association with this issue.

Christ's Work is being diminished before your very eyes, and until we understand that man is powerless, which MacArthur makes very clear, and understand that from the Biblical perspective, we will merge and blend concepts and create a theological stew no-one understands. And that is why so many are confused about the Gospel of Christ.

And one last thing, since you speak derisively of my "long" posts...why is it okay when you make long posts?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You admit you change the meaning of a word and give it a religious interpretation?

Thus proving your a false prophet?

thats what you just admitted to?

Now I am not only a cult follower, I am a false prophet.

Do you feel this is a charge you can prove?

Please do so.


God bless.

 

[ember]

ANGELA 53510

I was most disturbed by your calling out of ember for being a charismatic, as the driving force behind her rejection of Lordship Salvation. In fact, this whole thread was started because a Pentecostal said he agreed with Lordship Salvation. I am NOT charismatic. But if what ember has posted above is true, (and I am sure it is) I am totally against Lordship Salvation. I don't think that Lordship Salvation really has anything to do with whether you are charismatic or not. Just because JMcA is against charismatics and believes in Lordship Salvation, doesn't mean that is the the only combination possible. Again, salvation and the Lordship of Christ are really unrelated to gifts of the Spirit which follow salvation.

It also upsets me that so many people think that the gifts of the Spirit, are tongues, interpretation and prophecy. There are many other gifts, which are very evident in the body of Christ, which are in use in churches which totally eschew tongues.

"having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads,with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness." Romans 12:6-8

I have always had the gift of teaching, and some gifting in leadership. My husband is very gifted in acts of service and acts of mercy. Are you telling me that makes us charismatics? Or that God gives us no tools to serve him and share the gospel? Sounds like a pretty empty sort of way to serve Christ. Sorry, I am going to keep walking with God, and letting the Holy Spirit empower me to do his will. Without tongues, for those who might think I am reconverting! (Just joking, my good friends!)

thanks!


I ignored that attempt at an insult...first of all, I am neither Pentecostal nor Charasmatic...I grew up in a Brethern church but I do speak in tongues but I believe the emphasis should be on the other gifts as the Bible does seem to indicate that...but I do not want to reject what God desires I should have from Him!

I pray almost daily for discernment..as deception is the devil's biggest weapon and ignorance is no excuse so we need to dig into the Bible and study and pray for the Word to not only speak to us but to get into our hearts and heads... I have also prayed and will continue to pray for a thankful heart and one that remembers what God has already done...you know? count your blessings like that old song says ...

as far as speaking in tongues goes, I would recommend that unless one is preprared to walk before God they should not even ask because it opens a door into the spiritual realm that one does not experience in prayer only...I've always been kind of sensitive to those things anyways, but there is so much abuse with this gift that it has become dishonered and despised...but let God deal with all that...and I have no arguement with anyone who chooses not to pray in tongues...but I would definately warn folks who mock to stop.

I thank God for people like you Angela who take God's word in hand and study it...we won't all go the lengths that you have, but far too few study even a little...which is why there is so much deception and following of ministries rather than the Holy Spirit

Whether one prays in tongues or not, each believer is still sealed with the Holy Spirit...we can grieve Him through neglect and also rejection

We really cannot call Jesus Lord unless the Holy Spirit makes Him so...everything we have is a gift from God...and he spares us judgement when we are accepted in His Son and made righteous which His laws demand

anyhow...I start to sound like I am preaching and I'm no preacher LOL!

keep on doing what is useful...and what God has called you to...that is all any one of us can do

 

[P1LGR1M]

and your going to tell me you do not teach works??

That is exactly what I am telling you, and further...I am showing you why your doctrine denies the Sovereignty of God.

Tell me again how we are justified by death?

Tell me again how true faith is not always associated with repentance from sins?

I am trying to help you understand something you are confused about...what it is you actually believe.

I would bet money you did not realize your confusion teaches free will, did you?

Your giving me power I do nto have,

It's a false argument, syllogistic, and typical of all teachers that do not have a grasp on Core Doctrinal Issues.

You deny Sola Fide, and then attack a teacher who is a staunch teacher and defender of Sola Fide.

And you contradict yourself showing that it is you granting salvific significance to men:

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

Every person knows they are a sinner,

ONLY GOD CAN DO THAT WORK IN ME..

WHAT???????????

I wish you believed that:

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

Every person knows they are a sinner,

pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3),

hmm.. Well if I did not pursue Christ, How did I come to saving faith in him?

Let's put this back into it's original context:

pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3),

hmm.. Well if I did not pursue Christ, How did I come to saving faith in him? I must have seeked his guidance so I could understand the gospel correct? For I was still in the flesh, and without Gods help. could not understand it (the things of God are foolishness to those who are not yet his)

Try to explain that, oh and by the way, Jesus said he pursued us, not we pursued him. I guess you forgot all about that (john 6)

Sorry, but no, you did not seek His guidance, you were blind to your condition.

Your doctrine stumbles all over itself as you seek to justify your position:

Try to explain that, oh and by the way, Jesus said he pursued us, not we pursued him.

My Doctrine is self explanatory, lol. I don't need to seek to justify anything I say, because what I have said is evident in the Word of God.

So make up your mind, and the minds of those you teach: did you seek after Christ? If you did, guess what, you have just presented a pre-salvation work you accomplished.

Your doctrine and teaching is rather confusing.


Continued...

 

[ladylynn]

Great, you seek to make friends, I will seek to make disciples for Christ.

But thanks for showing that your position can change for the sake of friendship, rather than the truth of the Gospel.

You cannot possibly charge Lordship Salvation as error.

And as far as the posts being long, understand...these posts are not for those indoctrinated in liberal views, they are for those who want to understand the true danger of No-Lordship Salvation.

One does not have to embrace Lordship Salvation to understand that the teachings found in the No-Lordship Camp are in grave error and conflict with the Gospel of Christ.

By this post you are acknowledging that you are okay with people false accusing other believers and you do not feel they need to be held accountable for their actions; that true faith is not always accompanied by repentance; that Sovereign God is powerless to do what He says He will do when He saves people, which is produce fruit in their lives; that Scripture is in error in it's teachings that good trees produce good fruit, and evil trees produce evil fruit; that Scripture does not teach that among believers there will be false professors who look identical to Christians but are not.

These are called tares.

And the principle error behind some of these basic denials we see in the No-Lordship Camp is a fundamental understanding of the Sovereignty of God in salvation.

You acknowledge the member's belief that...everybody knows they are a sinner.

So, okay, do what you feel is necessary, but, I would ask you that you consider the significance of the New Birth in association with this issue.

Christ's Work is being diminished before your very eyes, and until we understand that man is powerless, which MacArthur makes very clear, and understand that from the Biblical perspective, we will merge and blend concepts and create a theological stew no-one understands. And that is why so many are confused about the Gospel of Christ.

And one last thing, since you speak derisively of my "long" posts...why is it okay when you make long posts?


God bless.

Exactly!! I didn't even finish reading all your post to the end because you did the same thing they used to do to us in our legalistic church, .... if you listen to Christian radio, it means you believe this;.......
If you allow those 'other' believers in your home for supper and fellowship, it means this;..............

No it doesn't mean what you said. None of it. Legalism likes nice neat rows of order where everything can be totally explained humanly speaking. Where it takes no stretch of faith to believe the best of someone. It just writes people off without hope of restoration.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I must have seeked his guidance so I could understand the gospel correct?

No, He sought you ought in your state of blindness:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Of sin, because they believe not on me;



The only part man has ever played in regards to enlightenment is their response.

This is why, in this Age, men will be held more accountable for their rejection of Christ, because the Revelation of he Mystery of the Gospel holds them more accountable.

Here is Peter's teaching on false teachers:

2 Peter 2:19-22

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

[SUP]20[/SUP]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

[SUP]21[/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Doesn't seem Peter suggests that those who are servants of corruption are born again believers. He doesn't seem to think that one can know the way of righteousness and be unconverted...and call that the Salvation of God.

His teaching serves as a warning to those who are enlightened to the way of righteousness and return to or maintain their corrupt lives.

Again, the Sovereignty of God is attacked by the No-Lordship Camp, which teaches that Scripture does not call men into account for their lives after they are saved.

And that is unbiblical.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Exactly!! I didn't even finish reading all your post to the end because you did the same thing they used to do to us in our legalistic church, .... if you listen to Christian radio, it means you believe this;.......
If you allow those 'other' believers in your home for supper and fellowship, it means this;..............

No it doesn't mean what you said. None of it. Legalism likes nice neat rows of order where everything can be totally explained humanly speaking. Where it takes no stretch of faith to believe the best of someone. It just writes people off without hope of restoration.

You can show legalism by addressing what I said and the Scripture presented to support it. Until you do, you will be doing exactly what I have been addressing since I became involved in this thread.

Again, the means of salvation are not in view, and both I and MacArthur make that very clear.

What is in view is the false doctrine of the No-Lordship Movement, and the wresting of what Scripture actually teaches.

And I will no longer engage in these side issues that are nothing but personal opinions. Address the issue of Lordship Salvation versus No-Lordship.

And you can begin by showing that MacArthur or I am teaching legalism or works-based faith.

You won't do that, because you can't do that.

Nor can your fellows.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

For I was still in the flesh, and without Gods help. could not understand it (the things of God are foolishness to those who are not yet his)

I wish you believed that in truth:

pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3),

hmm.. Well if I did not pursue Christ, How did I come to saving faith in him? I must have seeked his guidance so I could understand the gospel correct? For I was still in the flesh, and without Gods help. could not understand it (the things of God are foolishness to those who are not yet his)

Try to explain that, oh and by the way, Jesus said he pursued us, not we pursued him. I guess you forgot all about that (john 6)

Try to explain that, oh and by the way, Jesus said he pursued us, not we pursued him.

That is correct: the means of salvation begin with God's intervention and are sustained by God:


1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

[SUP]4 [/SUP]To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



Philippians 1:6

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


I know this and consistently teach it, MacArthur knows this and consistently teaches it...but not so sure you understand, seeing you contradict yourself in one statement:

pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3),

hmm.. Well if I did not pursue Christ, How did I come to saving faith in him? I must have seeked his guidance so I could understand the gospel correct? For I was still in the flesh, and without Gods help. could not understand it (the things of God are foolishness to those who are not yet his)

Try to explain that, oh and by the way, Jesus said he pursued us, not we pursued him. I guess you forgot all about that (john 6)

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

I guess you forgot all about that (john 6)

On the contrary, you can take a look at the "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost" and see this is a consistent theme in my understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

But what is in view is the denial of the No-Lordship Movement that Sovereign God...actually saves people from sin.

That He saves us that we might walk in His ways.


Ephesians 2

King James Version (KJV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The No-Lordship Movement denies this, ironically appealing to vv.8-9 in an attempt to support their doctrine.

We can't cherry-pick Scripture, we either take it as it is written, which here shows that we were ordained unto good works, or...we are exposed as people walking the Theological Buffet, allowing their flesh to take that which is desirable to them to create their religion, and leaving that which they would rather not digest.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

do you disagree with that

How could you agree with that, with any of this? do you study Gods word??

I do. And the more we discuss this issue the better you will understand that.

and obey Him (1 John 2:3).

1. God requires perfection. how good are you?

I already addressed this, for which I was called a smart aleck, lol.

God does require perfection, and the fact is only through Christ can we attain to a perfection whereby our sins are forgiven in completion.

Here is the clearest statement in Scripture that salvation is eternal, and cannot be lost:


Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


So as I said in the post that received only personal attack, not to mention a wresting of what I actually said, we have to distinguish between Progressive Sanctification and Positional Sanctification.

I can say with some confidence that many who have adopted the doctrines of the No-Lordship Movement have never bothered to actually comprehend what the Spirit teaches through the Writer here.

The perfection is in regards to remission of sins through the Sacrifice of Christ, by which we are Sanctified. What that means is that when God forgives based on the Sacrifice of Christ...it is for ever.

However, we still have the temporal perspective of Progressive Sanctification which demands of believers something so basic to Scripture we wonder how the No-Lordship Camp misses it in their attempts to oppose legalism...we have a responsibility to be holy.

That means that we do not have a license to sin as easy-believism encourages.


1 Peter 1:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


And it is no wonder that those who err in such fundamentals as the command to obedience and holy living...preach a gospel that does not in fact save from sin.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

2. Would anyone who truly has faith in someone else. NOT OBEY THEM (even if not perfectly)

That is Lordship Salvation teaching, my friend.

That is precisely the point you have been denying.

And it is hard for you to kick against the goads, because it is a Biblical Principle, and one so basic that to deny it is to deny the very Word of God and create a false gospel which not only does not save men from sins, it simply does not save anyone from anything.

People are better off going to self-help seminars than hearing a distorted gospel.

Do you disagree with that?

I disagree with the one who says someone can have true savng faith and never want to obey the one he says he has faith in

That is a Lordship Salvation teaching.

And if you took a little time to actually find out what MacArthur teaches, rather than aligning yourself with those who hate his teaching because it steps on their toes, you would see that.

You cannot deny Lordship Salvation, particularly as taught by John MacArthur.

It is not the obedience that saved, it was the faith,

Sorry, faith is a result of obedience to the Gospel.

We are saved by grace through faith, whereas your gospel has it like this: "We are saved by Faith."

An incomplete gospel is always going to be a false gospel.

God is sovereign in salvation...


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


But you can go around preaching a gospel that teaches men can be saved by faith which they do not have.

You don't put the cart before the horse...you have the horse in the cart and are trying to drag it around.

Faith is the result of God's intervention in the lives of men, men who are completely unaware that they are sinners, that Christ is righteous, and that they are already judged.

Thus it is written...


Hebrews 11

King James Version (KJV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


But you and your No-Lordship fellows teach that it is works-based salvation to point out that God saves, and that there is evidence of that salvation.

That is...faith.

Thus true faith is contrasted with false profession, as taught by many passages.

You have denied the very Word of God in saying obedience to the Gospel is error...that is a fundamental truth.

When you evangelize...do you tell them belief is optional? How could you?

Do you tell them faith in Christ is optional? How could you?

You can't.

Again, here is a passage that illustrates why men go into eternal punishment:


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

[SUP]8 [/SUP]In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


Seems as though Paul thinks that obedience to the Gospel is relevant.

He does so here as well:


Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]24 [/SUP]The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

[SUP]26 [/SUP]But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


And I suggest to all that they pay attention to what Paul is saying here in regards to the Mystery of the Gospel and when it was made known to men.

The significance of the particular revelation given unto men is missed by many.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

it is like you bypass faith and go right to works,

False charge.

You can show how I have taught a works-based salvation.

Then you can answer for the gospel you have presented, which denies that true faith is always accompanied by repentance from sins.

This is true before salvation, and it is equally true after salvation, and when we see people who are shown error and they refuse to repent, it raises doubts as to the genuine nature of their profession of "faith," which is exactly what the Word of God has always done...challenged men to reflect on their lives, and measure it according to the Word of God.

all in an attempt to discredit licentiousness..

You got that right, lol.

That is precisely what Lordship Salvation addresses.

The jews did that when they made their many laws after the return to babylon. Seems that is what happened here..

Not aware of the Jews attempting to discredit licentiousness, as Lordship Salvation does in regards to believers.

Lordship Salvation acknowledges that Christians sin after being saved, but that is not the issue. The issue is whether born again believers will maintain a lifestyle that evidences no change. That lacks repentance from sins.

John denies that as a possibility of genuine faith:


1 John 1:5-10

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


This is the message they heard...from Christ Himself:


1 John 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

[SUP]2 [/SUP](For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

[SUP]3 [/SUP]That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.


The No-Lordship Movement denies the Word of God at a very basic level.

John does not promote it.


Continued...