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Since you asked...
I can point you to one of the Jesus Movement documentaries where he speaks of the Calvary Chapel movement in glowing terms with it's new worship style and then point you to the strange fire conference where he does a near 180.
The error lies in the hypocrisy. Yes people change, obviously MacArthur changed, but to gang up after the founder passed when you had once been a good brother with the man and the movement...I find distasteful...just my opinion.
I can point you to one of the Jesus Movement documentaries where he speaks of the Calvary Chapel movement in glowing terms with it's new worship style and then point you to the strange fire conference where he does a near 180.
The error lies in the hypocrisy. Yes people change, obviously MacArthur changed, but to gang up after the founder passed when you had once been a good brother with the man and the movement...I find distasteful...just my opinion.
P
You need to understand what I am saying, so you can properly respond. Until then (most of your answeres are based on false assumptions) I can not understand what your saying, because our foundation is on two differing things.
My Foundation is Jesus Christ. Have you another?
How old are you, Really, I am asking because you seem to have no basis on how to read what people say.
That's funny, I have been able to show you agree with the very point I have shown to be foundational to Lordship Salvation, which addresses easy believism.
I pointed out early on that Ember was implying MacArthur was a works-based Salvationist, which she denied and the admitted.
And I have pointed out that those whose doctrine is weak and erroneous leads them to their only recourse...to attack the person personally.
But hey, thanks for illustrating those points. Makes it much easier for me when my antagonists make my points for me.
And by the way, I am 46, lol, though still a kid at heart sometimes.
Which you make pretty easy...thanks!
One of the reasons false witness is an issue I see as important is because it is rampant on Christian Forums.
And implying MacArthur teaches works-based salvation is simply absurd.
No, just the people whose doctrine I disagree with, lol.
Strange childhood.
Not at all, but thanks for asking.
Jesus Christ is foundational to the discussion.
And the question is...does Lordship Salvation deny that Salvation is through Christ by grace through Faith alone, and a works-based doctrine of men. That extends to MacArthur's teachings in regards to it, so the fact that someone falsely charges him with this and this is okay with the Christians condoning it is something that interests me greatly.
But what do I know, I am a cult follower of MacArthur, no way I could possibly discern the heart of this issue, what, with being blinded by my devotion and all. lol
On the contrary, I make it a point to be very clear.
That is why you ignore much that has been said and instead make this personal. That's okay with me. I'm used to it.
You seem to think your opinion...still matters.
You don't decide how I post and what I post.
When you are able to realize that you have waffled in your position, then perhaps your opinion might be considered. Until then, I am okay addressing your statements.
You say that like it's supposed to hurt my feelings, lol.
Don't you understand that it is my intention to stop you from making comments that I find to be ludicrous?
Have my doubts about that, but if you do...thanks! I will take all the prayer I can get, my friend, but only if it is genuinely offered.
If it goes along the lines of "Lord, please help this heretic to see the truth," lol, I would suggest to you that the Lord means to use us in that effort.
And so far, all I have seen is quite a bit of accusation which is at best unfounded ignorance and at worst satanic in nature.
Don't think for a minute that bad-mouthing people because they disagree with your views is godly conduct. Especially when the root problem is something entirely different.
MacArthur is without question hated for his stance against Charismania, but, that doesn't mean Charismatics have liberty to publicly broadcast things which are not truthful.
Now you show me, again, where MacArthur can be seen as a works-based Salvationists in any of his teachings.
Then perhaps you might be justified in the position you have taken.
I think you do. That's why you personally attack me, lol. Can't debate the issue so you make it personal. But again, that's okay, I am used to it. Doesn't mean I think it's right or that I won't point it out when I see it.
God bless.
E
well thanks. I did not know we were discussing lordship salvation, I thought we were still discussing your false Idea of what I said way back when when we first started to talk.
I can not discuss lordship salvation with you, because we first must get your false idea of what I ORIGIONALLY SAID taken care of.
You seem to not wish to do this (or admit a mistake) so I can only come to the conclusion, you do not want to discuss anything, just argue.
I can not discuss lordship salvation with you, because we first must get your false idea of what I ORIGIONALLY SAID taken care of.
You seem to not wish to do this (or admit a mistake) so I can only come to the conclusion, you do not want to discuss anything, just argue.
P
Provide a link.
And in it show that MacArthur has adopted unbiblical doctrine, as well as how anyone in this thread is justified in implying he teaches works-based salvation.
And thanks for pointing out that once again...all we have is opinion offered.
If someone changes their doctrinal position for the better, that is understandable. For the worse, then don't be surprised if someone points it out.
You see it as distasteful because they were once friends? Is it friendship that pats another on the back and condones doctrinal error? That isn't friendship, that is one of the purest forms of hatred there is.
Now quote MacArthur teaching works-based salvation.
God bless.
And in it show that MacArthur has adopted unbiblical doctrine, as well as how anyone in this thread is justified in implying he teaches works-based salvation.
And thanks for pointing out that once again...all we have is opinion offered.
If someone changes their doctrinal position for the better, that is understandable. For the worse, then don't be surprised if someone points it out.
You see it as distasteful because they were once friends? Is it friendship that pats another on the back and condones doctrinal error? That isn't friendship, that is one of the purest forms of hatred there is.
Now quote MacArthur teaching works-based salvation.
God bless.
P
Dude?
Well, please show how I am sinking myself in deeper and deeper, lol.
I have asked you repeatedly to do that.
Apparently you don't see the contradiction here:
Again, If one reads scripture, and has faith in the true gospel of Christ, and truly repents. The things of God will be evident in a changed life.
You are saying Lordship Salvation is something different than what I have stated as being the issue.
Great. Please present any Lordship Salvation teachings that are works-based salvation.
And in the context of this discussion...you also need to show MacArthur's teaching is works-based.
I have shown my understanding of your position.
Not sure I can explain it any clearer.
And making false charges and implications is what God has told you?
Funny, but the Bible I read makes it clear bearing false witness is not a good thing.
The simple point made above has been revealed as a central issue because we have Ember denying she implied works-based salvation then...openly declaring it.
Scripture has a word for that too.
It is the point, though you do not understand it.
Nor do you need to support people that bear false witness, then compound that offense by making personal attacks against those that have a problem with it.
I'm not the one who needs to get past anything, lol, I am just simply responding to your posts.
That happens in doctrinal discussion and debate sometimes.
God bless.
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P
I wonder why people delude themselves to thinking they have shown the error of another and yet have not offered the first shred of evidence of that. All I am seeing is charges levied without any verification.
I addressed exactly what you said, my friend, and you know it.
God bless.
I addressed exactly what you said, my friend, and you know it.
God bless.
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P
Well, while I am glad you do not err as others in this thread have, and recognize MacArthur teaches salvation by grace through faith alone, you do err in denying Sola Fide, which, as pointed out before, we are hard pressed to find a better spokesman than John MacArthur on.
As far as a Mid-Trib view, the only ones raptured at the mid point of the Tribulation are the Two Witnesses, lol.
Perhaps you would like to start a thread and explain why it is you have embraced a mid-trib view. You are one of the very few I have seen take this position, and would be greatly interested in seeing the Biblical Basis for it.
God bless.
As far as a Mid-Trib view, the only ones raptured at the mid point of the Tribulation are the Two Witnesses, lol.
Perhaps you would like to start a thread and explain why it is you have embraced a mid-trib view. You are one of the very few I have seen take this position, and would be greatly interested in seeing the Biblical Basis for it.
God bless.
E
No you did not. You think we are talking about lordship salvation, we never were.
You tried to correct me by saying things which I already believed, to prove your point, You have not even admitted you misunderstood me. And you say you have adressed what I said?
You need some humble pie. do not expect to get some respect in here when you continue to do that, not only to myself. but to others.. I am not the only one who has seen it..
H
Only the "righteous" are saved. Jesus said so often that the good people receive eternal life after death. We are born of the Spirit and "MADE" good by GOd puting in us HIS holy nature,:seed: of God ,ca salvation is real, we MUST be "righteous, love God's laws, love the Brethren , believe in Jesus. John's 1st. letter. Love to all, Hoffco Repent, Trust and Obey JESUS, to be saved.
LOL, you are not reading me clearly. I never said MacArthur teaches works based salvation.
The documentation is in a video both on DVD and YouTube covering the Jesus movement. There is actual footage from the 1970's where MacArthur is speaking in glowing terms of the Calvary Chapels then and then in the Strange Fire Conferencce he faults them for being a catalyst for the craziness going on.
I can provide the link tonight, right now I'm on my tablet.
Don't get me wrong there's tons of stuff I'm in agreement with concerning MacArthur, it's just that that mainly left a sore spot on my tongue.
The documentation is in a video both on DVD and YouTube covering the Jesus movement. There is actual footage from the 1970's where MacArthur is speaking in glowing terms of the Calvary Chapels then and then in the Strange Fire Conferencce he faults them for being a catalyst for the craziness going on.
I can provide the link tonight, right now I'm on my tablet.
Don't get me wrong there's tons of stuff I'm in agreement with concerning MacArthur, it's just that that mainly left a sore spot on my tongue.
P
While the link was given early on in this discussion, I would at this time like to present teaching of MacArthur and challenge those who care to object to do so:
An Introduction to Lordship Salvation
What follows is from the Grace Community Church Distinctive on Lordship Salvation . It was adapted from John MacArthur's material on the topic of lordship salvation, and serves as an excellent introduction to the subject.
The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the bondage of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners, but at the same time it was a rebuke to outwardly religious people whose lives were devoid of true righteousness. It put sinners on notice that they must turn from sin and embrace God's righteousness. Our Lord's words about eternal life were invariably accompanied by warnings to those who might be tempted to take salvation lightly. He taught that the cost of following Him is high, that the way is narrow and few find it. He said many who call him Lord will be forbidden from entering the kingdom of heaven (cf. Matthew 7:13-23).
Present-day evangelicalism, by and large, ignores these warnings. The prevailing view of what constitutes saving faith continues to grow broader and more shallow, while the portrayal of Christ in preaching and witnessing becomes fuzzy. Anyone who claims to be a Christian can find evangelicals willing to accept a profession of faith, whether or not the person's behavior shows any evidence of commitment to Christ. In this way, faith has become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts about Him.
This shallow understanding of salvation and the gospel, known as "easy-believism," stands in stark contrast to what the Bible teaches. To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation.
The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation
There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.
What, then, are the distinctives of lordship salvation? What does Scripture teach that is embraced by those who affirm lordship salvation but rejected by proponents of "easy-believism"? The following are nine distinctives of a biblical understanding of salvation and the gospel.
First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.
Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.
Third, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.
Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.
Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3; Romans 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.
Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Romans 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.
Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Peter 1:8-9; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.
Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.
Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.
Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.
This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This is not merely a matter for theologians to discuss and debate and speculate about. This is an issue that every single pastor and lay person must understand in order that the gospel may be rightly proclaimed to all the nations.
Link
Will MacArthur's opponents do so?
Doubtful. Much easier to falsely accuse people when the facts are carefully obscured.
God bless.
An Introduction to Lordship Salvation
What follows is from the Grace Community Church Distinctive on Lordship Salvation . It was adapted from John MacArthur's material on the topic of lordship salvation, and serves as an excellent introduction to the subject.
The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the bondage of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners, but at the same time it was a rebuke to outwardly religious people whose lives were devoid of true righteousness. It put sinners on notice that they must turn from sin and embrace God's righteousness. Our Lord's words about eternal life were invariably accompanied by warnings to those who might be tempted to take salvation lightly. He taught that the cost of following Him is high, that the way is narrow and few find it. He said many who call him Lord will be forbidden from entering the kingdom of heaven (cf. Matthew 7:13-23).
Present-day evangelicalism, by and large, ignores these warnings. The prevailing view of what constitutes saving faith continues to grow broader and more shallow, while the portrayal of Christ in preaching and witnessing becomes fuzzy. Anyone who claims to be a Christian can find evangelicals willing to accept a profession of faith, whether or not the person's behavior shows any evidence of commitment to Christ. In this way, faith has become merely an intellectual exercise. Instead of calling men and women to surrender to Christ, modern evangelism asks them only to accept some basic facts about Him.
This shallow understanding of salvation and the gospel, known as "easy-believism," stands in stark contrast to what the Bible teaches. To put it simply, the gospel call to faith presupposes that sinners must repent of their sin and yield to Christ's authority. This, in a nutshell, is what is commonly referred to as lordship salvation.
The Distinctives of Lordship Salvation
There are many articles of faith that are fundamental to all evangelical teaching. For example, there is agreement among all believers on the following truths: (1) Christ's death purchased eternal salvation; (2) the saved are justified by grace through faith in Christ alone; (3) sinners cannot earn divine favor; (4) God requires no preparatory works or pre-salvation reformation; (5) eternal life is a gift of God; (6) believers are saved before their faith ever produces any righteous works; and (7) Christians can and do sin, sometimes horribly.
What, then, are the distinctives of lordship salvation? What does Scripture teach that is embraced by those who affirm lordship salvation but rejected by proponents of "easy-believism"? The following are nine distinctives of a biblical understanding of salvation and the gospel.
First, Scripture teaches that the gospel calls sinners to faith joined in oneness with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a turning from sin (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47) that consists not of a human work but of a divinely bestowed grace (Acts 11:18; 2 Timothy 2:25). It is a change of heart, but genuine repentance will effect a change of behavior as well (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18-20). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that repentance is simply a synonym for faith and that no turning from sin is required for salvation.
Second, Scripture teaches that salvation is all God's work. Those who believe are saved utterly apart from any effort on their own (Titus 3:5). Even faith is a gift of God, not a work of man (Ephesians 2:1-5, 8). Real faith therefore cannot be defective or short-lived but endures forever (Philippians 1:6; cf. Hebrews 11). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that faith might not last and that a true Christian can completely cease believing.
Third, Scripture teaches that the object of faith is Christ Himself, not a creed or a promise (John 3:16). Faith therefore involves personal commitment to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:15). In other words, all true believers follow Jesus (John 10:27-28). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that saving faith is simply being convinced or giving credence to the truth of the gospel and does not include a personal commitment to the person of Christ.
Fourth, Scripture teaches that real faith inevitably produces a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17). Salvation includes a transformation of the inner person (Galatians 2:20). The nature of the Christian is new and different (Romans 6:6). The unbroken pattern of sin and enmity with God will not continue when a person is born again (1 John 3:9-10). Those with genuine faith follow Christ (John 10:27), love their brothers (1 John 3:14), obey God's commandments (1 John 2:3; John 15:14), do the will of God (Matthew 12:50), abide in God's Word (John 8:31), keep God's Word (John 17:6), do good works (Ephesians 2:10), and continue in the faith (Colossians 1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that although some spiritual fruit is inevitable, that fruit might not be visible to others and Christians can even lapse into a state of permanent spiritual barrenness.
Fifth, Scripture teaches that God's gift of eternal life includes all that pertains to life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3; Romans 8:32), not just a ticket to heaven. In contrast, according to easy-believism, only the judicial aspects of salvation (e.g., justification, adoption, and positional sanctification) are guaranteed for believers in this life; practical sanctification and growth in grace require a post-conversion act of dedication.
Sixth, Scripture teaches that Jesus is Lord of all, and the faith He demands involves unconditional surrender (Romans 6:17-18; 10:9-10). In other words, Christ does not bestow eternal life on those whose hearts remain set against Him (James 4:6). Surrender to Jesus' lordship is not an addendum to the biblical terms of salvation; the summons to submission is at the heart of the gospel invitation throughout Scripture. In contrast, easy-believism teaches that submission to Christ's supreme authority is not germane to the saving transaction.
Seventh, Scripture teaches that those who truly believe will love Christ (1 Peter 1:8-9; Romans 8:28-30; 1 Corinthians 16:22). They will therefore long to obey Him (John 14:15, 23). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that Christians may fall into a state of lifelong carnality.
Eighth, Scripture teaches that behavior is an important test of faith. Obedience is evidence that one's faith is real (1 John 2:3). On the other hand, the person who remains utterly unwilling to obey Christ does not evidence true faith (1 John 2:4). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that disobedience and prolonged sin are no reason to doubt the reality of one's faith.
Ninth, Scripture teaches that genuine believers may stumble and fall, but they will persevere in the faith (1 Corinthians 1:8). Those who later turn completely away from the Lord show that they were never truly born again (1 John 2:19). In contrast, easy-believism teaches that a true believer may utterly forsake Christ and come to the point of not believing.
Most Christians recognize that these nine distinctives are not new or radical ideas. The preponderance of Bible-believing Christians over the centuries have held these to be basic tenets of orthodoxy. In fact, no major orthodox movement in the history of Christianity has ever taught that sinners can spurn the lordship of Christ yet lay claim to Him as Savior.
This issue is not a trivial one. In fact, how could any issue be more important? The gospel that is presented to unbelievers has eternal ramifications. If it is the true gospel, it can direct men and women into the everlasting kingdom. If it is a corrupted message, it can give unsaved people false hope while consigning them to eternal damnation. This is not merely a matter for theologians to discuss and debate and speculate about. This is an issue that every single pastor and lay person must understand in order that the gospel may be rightly proclaimed to all the nations.
Link
Will MacArthur's opponents do so?
Doubtful. Much easier to falsely accuse people when the facts are carefully obscured.
God bless.