Loss of salvation???

[studier]

And there must be sheep who can remove themselves from the sheep but remain a sheep having been one.
(Sheesh!)

Also, at the end of the analogy, people are not sheep, so the analogy only takes us so far.

It's like a woke male thinking he is a woman.
He is still a male. Just one who is insane.
An insane male.

But this is the point, isn't it? People who reject God are insane. And it seems the sane can become insane

 

[studier]

I didn't even bother to read the rest...... it's unnerving that folks are looking to a computer for answers about Godly things.

My initial response also, but we better get used to it and learn to deal with it. Also, the result was interesting.

 

[HeIsHere]

Unbelievers can become believers.

Believers can become unbelievers.

Therefore, sheep can become goats.

A believer cannot undo his/her status of innocent once that person has accepted the payment of the debt in full.
The believer has no way of acquiring/taking back the the debt.

That is what it means to be "justified" it is a non-revocable status.

So this logic is completely flawed right out of the gate because belief/faith is the >>> "through' it is not the end result.

There is one act of belief in Christ Jesus and His work that brings the one irrevocable gift.

Our status of justified is not tethered to this "ongoing belief" but completely dependent on God and His promises.

 

[HeIsHere]

I didn't even bother to read the rest...... it's unnerving that folks are looking to a computer for answers about Godly things.

​

​

Do you go listen to pastors?

The computer just aggregates the information from pastors/theologians it does not make it up.

 

[HeIsHere]

Understood. I've been encountering many of late who could have benefitted from a teacher who would have taught them how to stand on their own two feet in the Faith. He certainly worked hard at that goal.

Looking back, one of the main issues I have with systematic teaching is that it really doesn't teach us to think for ourselves apart from the presuppositions that we've received and have thus structured our thinking. It can take a lot of work to unwind some of that structure if/when we find it to be wrong. Also, there are many who sit faithfully year after year and learn 'doctrine" but don't learn the Bible. That seems to be more a problem with the hearers than the teacher.

I would agree, but to learn the Bible one has to get certain foundational truths correct.
It is when we come into agreement with God on His truths we grow and acquiring a deeper understanding.

 

[In3dee]

My initial response also, but we better get used to it and learn to deal with it. Also, the result was interesting.

All due respect, I am not going to get used to it. That which we tolerate, etc.....
Nor deal with it. I simply will not engage with folks whose mindset is steered by computer data.

 

[In3dee]

Do you go listen to pastors?

The computer just aggregates the information from pastors/theologians it does not make it up.

I listen to preaching from the Bible, yes. Not opinions or computer data.

 

[HeIsHere]

I listen to preaching from the Bible, yes. Not opinions or computer data.

Like I stated the computer just brings information together and from my experience actually does a good job of organizing the information, different interpretation, so the a person can investigate further.

Preaching is filled with opinions with only a point of view.

You may want to read the "sovereign election" thread to see how well that has worked out for Christians.

 

[In3dee]

All due respect, I am not going to get used to it. That which we tolerate, etc.....
Nor deal with it. I simply will not engage with folks whose mindset is steered by computer data.

Like I stated the computer just brings information together and from my experience actually does a good job of organizing the information, different interpretation, so the a person can investigate further.

Preaching is filled with opinions with only a point of view.

You may want to read the "sovereign election" thread to see how well that has worked out for Christians.

All due respect, I am not going to get used to it. That which we tolerate, etc.....
Nor deal with it. I simply will not engage with folks whose mindset is steered by computer data.

 

[studier]

All due respect, I am not going to get used to it. That which we tolerate, etc.....
Nor deal with it. I simply will not engage with folks whose mindset is steered by computer data.

Will you provide any oversight to assist others in reviewing what they're receiving?

This is the inevitable outcome of electronic communications and tech development is still in process. As I've mentioned before on the topic, maybe the computers will do a better job than we've done with piecing together the vast puzzle that is Scripture. I know I'm thankful for the digital tools I have to work in Scripture. I'd need a 10' long table filled with books to match what I have on my screen at any given times when studying Scripture and then I'm constricted by the capacity of my faculties to deal with all combinations of factors involved in translating and interpreting.

So much for the Holy Spirit, I guess, but He's seemed to help me work with all of this for decades rather than ignoring me, so I'll put it all away and just settle in with a single work of bounded paper.

 

[Sipsey]

I am not sure what he was getting at...

That would only be true up to a point, as long as you yourself have the spiritual gift of pastor-teacher awaiting to be developed.
Then you could reach a point of not needing him to understand the Bible.
Even my pastor, who was considered a pastor's pastor and an excellent scholar, still studied the works of other men.

There are etymologists. They can teach others how to determine the meaning of certain words. But, that does
not make someone into a pastor-teacher who can teach the Bible. And, as a must, one also must become an avid student
of history. For, good Bible study requires being able to master isagogics. Isagogics is the discipline used to determine the
meaning of a word, or expression, found in the Bible to know how it was used at the time the Bible was written.

Just learning Hebrew and Greek [accurately] is a great accomplishment in itself. But it can leave one not knowing why the Greek said what it was saying... which in turn can open a pandora's box of speculations.

In the days of the formation of the church, people did not at one point leave a pastor to stay home to study for themselves.
Because a true pastor should always be growing, and his flock that follows will also continue to grow as he grows in grace and knowledge.

I agree. He was an ardent student who spent years digging. He too studied under Thieme for a number of years. I listened to countless Thieme tapes and studied many of his topical books. Like you I think Thieme was a gifted and passionate teacher that helped many, but not without his flaws. Paull seemed to become more humble as he grew, and I understand why.

My friend said he wore out three vehicles traveling back and forth to seminary. He loved to focus on the languages, history, culture, and context of passages. We were both Vets during Vietnam and each had studied martial arts.

I am more a conversational evangelist. I have a passion for research and spent years digging into various topics and religions. My friend is 75 and still a passionate student of the Word. When we began our class he had read the KJV in its entirety 8 times, the NIV twice and NASB two or three. He taught me a systematic way to study and opened the door to a wide range of available resources.

 

[studier]

I would agree, but to learn the Bible one has to get certain foundational truths correct.
It is when we come into agreement with God on His truths we grow and acquiring a deeper understanding.

Agree but (my turn for the contrasting) teaching normally does not remain with foundational truths and even then, some teach foundational truths differently and may even add things beyond the foundation and call it foundational. I know you know this from seeing you on certain other threads, mainly one I'm thinking of - a very long one at this point.

 

[In3dee]

Will you provide any oversight to assist others in reviewing what they're receiving?

This is the inevitable outcome of electronic communications and tech development is still in process. As I've mentioned before on the topic, maybe the computers will do a better job than we've done with piecing together the vast puzzle that is Scripture. I know I'm thankful for the digital tools I have to work in Scripture. I'd need a 10' long table filled with books to match what I have on my screen at any given times when studying Scripture and then I'm constricted by the capacity of my faculties to deal with all combinations of factors involved in translating and interpreting.

So much for the Holy Spirit, I guess, but He's seemed to help me work with all of this for decades rather than ignoring me, so I'll put it all away and just settle in with a single work of bounded paper.

The scripture is God's pure Word. We can understand it if we humble our hearts, repent and ask Jesus into our heart. Then we begin to understand scripture. Using other's opinions or data gathered & tacked together from various places is not my way; nor God's way, IMO.

People will figure it all out as they go along growing in the Word. Which God left for us.

 

[studier]

I listen to preaching from the Bible, yes.

With respect, most Christians say this, yet many to most of them wouldn't know if it's really "from" the Bible or something read into the Bible.

 

[Sipsey]

The scripture is God's pure Word. We can understand it if we humble our hearts, repent and ask Jesus into our heart. Then we begin to understand scripture. Using other's opinions or data gathered & tacked together from various places is not my way; nor God's way, IMO.

People will figure it all out as they go along growing in the Word. Which God left for us.

We much each give an account as individuals. But think about all the people with varying personalities and education that God used through the years in order to get His truth spread around the world. It seems God decided to use imperfect humans, and even nature to bring us to the cross of salvation.

 

[Sipsey]

Did you learn to study for yourself as was the premise stated by the teacher?

I sure did, and the more I learn, the more I realize I do not know, which is a tool used by God to keep us humble. The Holy Sprit occasionly steps in and confirms things. Learning to navigate the Bible and form a consensus has also helped me navigate a variety of worldly subjects. But in the end, I am merely a sinner saved by grace.

 

[In3dee]

With respect, most Christians say this, yet many to most of them wouldn't know if it's really "from" the Bible or something read into the Bible.

Maybe some. I study my Bible daily.

 

[studier]

The scripture is God's pure Word. We can understand it if we humble our hearts, repent and ask Jesus into our heart. Then we begin to understand scripture. Using other's opinions or data gathered & tacked together from various places is not my way; nor God's way, IMO.

People will figure it all out as they go along growing in the Word. Which God left for us.

Agreeing with your first sentence, I understand the sentiment thereafter, but in actuality there are many who do not understand Scripture and we'd be hard-pressed to say they are not humble in heart in Christ. And, when we sit in pews and listen to preaching and teaching, we're often getting opinions and verses tacked together based upon interpretive traditions.

IMO too many attend and remain in trust and or laziness for many reasons and shut off the Spirit who in my experience told me many times to move on from there because what I was being fed was not according to Truth or had veered from it at some point. But my orientation was always to the Text and not to men but even that orientation had to be made stronger.

I don't know what your view is but mine and many I've read and spoken to over the decades have the opinion that many are not growing in the Word. Ultimately, this too as you seem to infer is up to God. But we will and do bear some responsibility for our work as His co-workers.

 

[Jimbone]

If anyone chooses to walk away, their salvation will be lost. Salvation is not guaranteed- therefore, it should be noted that I do not believe in once saved, always saved.

Who said it was guarnteed? I testify that one who has been transformed by the POWER of God cannot turn from Him. Not by my power, but by His, I'm saying that anyone saved in truth by the real life Creator of everything through His Son Jesus, can not walk away from Him. Maybe you can, but I testify that my Gods power keeps me, by His power and for His glory. I don't know the weak God you're talking about that saves people to walk away from Him. My God is MUCH better than yours.

 

[HeIsHere]

Agree but (my turn for the contrasting) teaching normally does not remain with foundational truths and even then, some teach foundational truths differently and may even add things beyond the foundation and call it foundational. I know you know this from seeing you on certain other threads, mainly one I'm thinking of - a very long one at this point.

Yes I see your point.
I take this as a one of the foundational truths (stated in the next paragraph) and that people stand against a very uplifting foundational truth says a lot.

The Gospel is simple and yet profound and God did NOT create a fallen nature in man present from birth that prohibits a person from understanding/believing and freely responding to it's message of truth.

Anyone that teaches otherwise is going against the teaches of Paul (TOP, lol) and Jesus by default.