Lost salvation or name not in the book
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It was better than a nice try. It is the difference between life and death. While there is a righteousness of the law, only 1 has ever attained to it.
Why do you want to try to relate to God in a way that for you that will lead to death? We have passed from death to life. Come join us. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Why do you want to try to relate to God in a way that for you that will lead to death? We have passed from death to life. Come join us. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
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This has been a fascinating conversation and I greatly appreciate it even though it seems tempers have at times been hot and unnecessarily salty language used in some of the discourse.
Please discuss in a loving spirit and realize this discussion benefits each other and other readers. The better we come to understand the many nuances of the Bible the better Christians we become.
I will offer my own, unwashed, unsupported, perspective. Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.
Before Christ we all live in sin. In fact, we cannot even recognize sin. A perfect example of this is how all our cultures embrace sin and call sin good.
Then we find Christ, or are called to Christ. We pray for forgiveness and accept Jesus as Lord.
Then we receive the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit opens our eyes to sin. We can now recognize it. In fact, it becomes so painfully obvious we have trouble understanding why the world can't see it even though we were just like them.
Now we have an obligation to resist the sin within ourselves. This is where things get complicated because we are never really free from sins influence. Because we do fail.
Just because we cannot stop sinning, we cannot justify sin. We cannot say, it is okay to sin because now we are saved. Instead, we must go to the cross. We must confess our sins, admitting they are sins, and ask for forgiveness and help with the struggle even though it is a struggle that will not end until we are in our resurrection bodies.
I think this goes way way way beyond a narrow interpretation of the 10 commandments.
For example:
Loving God IS loving your neighbor. Loving God IS loving that which is good. Loving God IS being obedient to His Word among so many other things.
Loving your neighbor IS feeding them, clothing them, housing them, instructing them, correcting them, and worshiping with them among so many other things.
Thank you for taking the time and for posting on this thread.
Please discuss in a loving spirit and realize this discussion benefits each other and other readers. The better we come to understand the many nuances of the Bible the better Christians we become.
I will offer my own, unwashed, unsupported, perspective. Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken.
Before Christ we all live in sin. In fact, we cannot even recognize sin. A perfect example of this is how all our cultures embrace sin and call sin good.
Then we find Christ, or are called to Christ. We pray for forgiveness and accept Jesus as Lord.
Then we receive the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit opens our eyes to sin. We can now recognize it. In fact, it becomes so painfully obvious we have trouble understanding why the world can't see it even though we were just like them.
Now we have an obligation to resist the sin within ourselves. This is where things get complicated because we are never really free from sins influence. Because we do fail.
Just because we cannot stop sinning, we cannot justify sin. We cannot say, it is okay to sin because now we are saved. Instead, we must go to the cross. We must confess our sins, admitting they are sins, and ask for forgiveness and help with the struggle even though it is a struggle that will not end until we are in our resurrection bodies.
I think this goes way way way beyond a narrow interpretation of the 10 commandments.
For example:
Loving God IS loving your neighbor. Loving God IS loving that which is good. Loving God IS being obedient to His Word among so many other things.
Loving your neighbor IS feeding them, clothing them, housing them, instructing them, correcting them, and worshiping with them among so many other things.
Thank you for taking the time and for posting on this thread.
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Jesus was made under the law. To fulfill the law was His purpose in becoming flesh. He did so because we cannot.
Keeping the law is important...but not for salvation. In this regard, it always brings death.
So again, come join us in life everlasting. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Keeping the law is important...but not for salvation. In this regard, it always brings death.
So again, come join us in life everlasting. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
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1 John 5:9-13
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Present tense, and you don't have to wait for it or wonder about it. And if you say that you HAVE eternal life, then lose it, then you never HAD ETERNAL Life. Hence, you either have it, or you don't. Just like the above verses teach.
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Present tense, and you don't have to wait for it or wonder about it. And if you say that you HAVE eternal life, then lose it, then you never HAD ETERNAL Life. Hence, you either have it, or you don't. Just like the above verses teach.
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Judas Iscariot was originally called one of the 12, cannot tell me that he wasn't saved. But if this happens:
Romans 1:27-32
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind (The word "reprobate" means "to reject" or "to cast away."), to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
They are lost.
Romans 1:27-32
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind (The word "reprobate" means "to reject" or "to cast away."), to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
They are lost.
Galatians 3:20-27
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Righteousness and truth and Life comes by faith in Jesus Christ not by following the law. Now those who have faith in Jesus Christ and want to serve Him with all their heart will most certainly obey the law to the best of their ability but we are mere humans and no one has ever kept the law perfectly except for Christ.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Righteousness and truth and Life comes by faith in Jesus Christ not by following the law. Now those who have faith in Jesus Christ and want to serve Him with all their heart will most certainly obey the law to the best of their ability but we are mere humans and no one has ever kept the law perfectly except for Christ.
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John 6:70-71, "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." I think Jesus knew he was lost.
The word "reprobate" carries the idea of being void of judgement. Having God in one's knowledge does equate to salvation. These are those who God gives over to a mind void of judgement because they don't want to know Him.
And they always were.
The word "reprobate" carries the idea of being void of judgement. Having God in one's knowledge does equate to salvation. These are those who God gives over to a mind void of judgement because they don't want to know Him.
And they always were.
John 17:6-12
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them was lost but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
We can all agree that the scripture here is Jesus speaking about the 12 including Judas Iscariot.
Christ says that not one of them were lost, except the son of perdition. Christ is speaking of Judas. Judas was lost. He was a sheep, and had been lost because he willfully wandered away from the Lord. All the statements in bold sounds like a person saved to me.
“I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them was lost but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
We can all agree that the scripture here is Jesus speaking about the 12 including Judas Iscariot.
Christ says that not one of them were lost, except the son of perdition. Christ is speaking of Judas. Judas was lost. He was a sheep, and had been lost because he willfully wandered away from the Lord. All the statements in bold sounds like a person saved to me.
We don't all agree with that. The scripture says...to the men whom you gave me...they have kept your word...This does not describe Judas. It also does not say who they are who are given. You assume it's the twelve. But that's not what it says. Further, it says...I guarded them...Do you really think Jesus couldn't keep them guarded? John 10...no one can snatch them out of my hand...I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish...
How is it that none of Jesus sheep can be lost or taken from Him and you say they can? How is it that Jesus sheep never perish but you say one did?
How is it that none of Jesus sheep can be lost or taken from Him and you say they can? How is it that Jesus sheep never perish but you say one did?
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