Luke 16:16 Law & Prophets until John

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Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#21
Acts 2:36 -- "you had crucified"
Acts 3:15 -- "
you put to death"
Acts 3:17 -- "
I know you acted in ignorance"


Acts 3:18 -- "these things God has showed before through His holy prophets, that Christ should suffer"

and Christ said, no one takes His life from Him. He lays it down and He takes it up again. John 10:18, John 2:19, John 10:11, John 15:13. a servant is not greater than his Master -- Matthew 10:24, John 13:16 & John 15:20


as i've been saying :)
Yes I agree, my point is that whenever Peter talks about the cross in Acts to Israel, it was bad news, it was condemnation.

But when Paul talks about the cross to us in the Body of Christ, its good news (Galatians 6:14, 1 Cor 15:1-4, 1 Cor 2:2).

We are to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), between Israel and us.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#22
Yes I agree, my point is that whenever Peter talks about the cross in Acts to Israel, it was bad news, it was condemnation.

But when Paul talks about the cross to us in the Body of Christ, its good news (Galatians 6:14, 1 Cor 15:1-4, 1 Cor 2:2).
just as it was written in all the prophets and the law. Christ must suffer these things, be rejected, and the LORD provoke Israel to jealousy -- Deuteronomy 32:21. none of this was a 'missed opportunity' or a 'plan B' -- Christ came in order to be rejected and despised by His own, to lay down His own life, to raise it up again, and to call to Himself a people who were not a people, who did not seek Him, who did not know Him - Isaiah 65:1, Hosea 2:23, 1 Peter 2:10. all of this is written in the law and the prophets.

Peter is speaking to Gentiles here, and God through Hosea is speaking of Israel saying 'you once were not a people' -- it's Romans 11:25, "this mystery" and it's been God's plan from Genesis 3, and since Genesis 1, when light appeared and was separated from the darkness. from the very first day God brought Israel out of Egypt -- as a testimony to us of Christ -- Israel accused Him of murder. they rejected the Spiritual Rock that saved them even while He was saving them, so not they, but their children whom they accused God of plotting to murder, entered the land, and He gave them the covenant of the ministration of death that they deserved, as a schoolmaster to lead them to the day they would put the Son Himself to death for being I AM, and the day when they recognize Him, and mourn.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#23
just as it was written in all the prophets and the law. Christ must suffer these things, be rejected, and the LORD provoke Israel to jealousy -- Deuteronomy 32:21. none of this was a 'missed opportunity' or a 'plan B' -- Christ came in order to be rejected and despised by His own, to lay down His own life, to raise it up again, and to call to Himself a people who were not a people, who did not seek Him, who did not know Him - Isaiah 65:1, Hosea 2:23, 1 Peter 2:10. all of this is written in the law and the prophets.

Peter is speaking to Gentiles here, and God through Hosea is speaking of Israel saying 'you once were not a people' -- it's Romans 11:25, "this mystery" and it's been God's plan from Genesis 3, and since Genesis 1, when light appeared and was separated from the darkness. from the very first day God brought Israel out of Egypt -- as a testimony to us of Christ -- Israel accused Him of murder. they rejected the Spiritual Rock that saved them even while He was saving them, so not they, but their children whom they accused God of plotting to murder, entered the land, and He gave them the covenant of the ministration of death that they deserved, as a schoolmaster to lead them to the day they would put the Son Himself to death for being I AM, and the day when they recognize Him, and mourn.
No one said anything about plan B (Ephesians 3:9)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#24
Yes I agree, my point is that whenever Peter talks about the cross in Acts to Israel, it was bad news, it was condemnation.

But when Paul talks about the cross to us in the Body of Christ, its good news (Galatians 6:14, 1 Cor 15:1-4, 1 Cor 2:2).

We are to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim 2:15), between Israel and us.
The word is Christ, not Israel. You are so misunderstanding Israel in scripture that it taints all your understanding of the word.

God spoke to all men, God did not want the nations to worship idols.

Isaiah 56:5………. the foreigner is not kept from joining Himself to the Lord. Rather, he will be brought into God’s holy mountain. His sacrifices will be accepted, and he will experience the joy of the Lord.

Because the nations did not accept Him, God created a race to be caretakers of the word but salvation and the Lord was God and salvation for all man.
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#25
Thanks for this wonderful study. I do think you are wrong with one aspect, for you say Israel was under law for the forgiveness of sin.

When the Lord gives forgiveness of sin it is ONLY through Christ. The sacrificial system was a shadow of Christ, a shadow is a dim outline of what it is shadowing not a distortion. It is only through grace we have forgiveness of sin and that system was all about the forgiveness of sin.

When we read scripture, we must know it is always truth, there is no scripture that is not truth. It is the truth that no one has ever been forgiven of sin through obedience to the law, it is only through grace.
Could you just post my statement where I said that, "Israel was under the Law for the forgiveness of sin". Thanks.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
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#26
John was the last prophet under the Old Covenant. Hence this statement. Christ fulfilled the Law & the Prophets and brought in the New Covenant.
Jesus was the last prophet of the OT.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#27
Could you just post my statement where I said that, "Israel was under the Law for the forgiveness of sin". Thanks.
It was when I read your post #8 and was so impressed except for this:
"John Baptist
John Baptist introduced Baptism. His Baptism was to show that Israel under Law had failed, and that the only reasonable future for Israel was that the old way was good only to be buried in the death "
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#28
Jesus was the last prophet of the OT.
Not so. He was the Messiah-King of Israel and the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world. That was the testimony of John the Baptist. Indeed John would prepare the way for "the Lord", not for another prophet.

MARK 1: JOHN THE FORERUNNER OF THE LORD, THE SON OF GOD
1 The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#29
It was when I read your post #8 and was so impressed except for this:
"John Baptist
John Baptist introduced Baptism. His Baptism was to show that Israel under Law had failed, and that the only reasonable future for Israel was that the old way was good only to be buried in the death "
My dear brother (or sister), those are two very different sentences with very different meanings. Maybe you understood it one way, but certainly you can't say I said that. But no offense is taken. I just wanted to clear that up.

What did John's Baptism achieve? John's baptism has its beginning in Genesis 1:2. The earth was dark and covered with water. The reason for this is debated and disputed. But it does not matter. Darkness when the sun is still shining is a sign of God's judgment (as it was during the last 3 hours on the cross as Jesus was judged by His Father for the sins of the world).

And covering the whole earth with water at Noah's time was God's judgment on men who sinned.

Later, Joshua 24:2 says that for God to continue with Abraham, who was an idol-worshiper, he must pass through a flood. That means, what he was up to then must be buried and something new must come out. The old way is unusable for God. God does not just forget it. He TERMINATES it.

Still later, Joshua 24:14 tells us the same about Israel. They too worshiped the demon-gods of Egypt and so God allows them to pass through the waters that destroys the HEIRS of Egypt.

40 years later, Israel again pass through a flood - the Jordan, and leave 12 stones in the river bed and take 12 out of the river bed and build a monument on the far side. It symolized the end of an old generation and the entrance of the new.

In each case of the floods above, a past and sinful era was ended. So John *immersed" Israel to show that the old way, that of Law, had not been kept and Israel must embrace the New. The attempts at keeping the Law had ended in sin and condemnation, and thus, the Old Creation was to be buried. And although our Lord Jesus was without sin, He, being Mary's Son, belonged to the Old and commanded John to immerse Him - not for the remission of sins, but for "righteousness' sake".
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#30
The word is Christ, not Israel. You are so misunderstanding Israel in scripture that it taints all your understanding of the word.

God spoke to all men, God did not want the nations to worship idols.

Isaiah 56:5………. the foreigner is not kept from joining Himself to the Lord. Rather, he will be brought into God’s holy mountain. His sacrifices will be accepted, and he will experience the joy of the Lord.

Because the nations did not accept Him, God created a race to be caretakers of the word but salvation and the Lord was God and salvation for all man.
Again, I am only repeating what peter said in acts 2:36
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#31
Genesis 1:2. Darkness when the sun is still shining is a sign of God's judgment (as it was during the last 3 hours on the cross as Jesus was judged by His Father for the sins of the world).

And covering the whole earth with water at Noah's time was God's judgment on men who sinned.
I do agree with most of these things, and I see you did not aim to say that there was go grace in the Israel of the old testament under the sacrificial system. I think you agree with me that God gave ways for forgiveness of sin as soon as sin was brought into the world.

You bring out something I think most people don't take note of---that the world was darkness when God added light. The Hebrew word translated as darkness is choshek meaning the opposite of goodness like blindness, ignorance, falsehood. God added what is transcribed as light to this darkness, but the Hebrew word is different from the word used when the light of the fourth day was created. On the first day the Hebrew word means goodness, enlightenment, happiness. God created a different light on the fourth day, called moar. This was the source of the bright light, as we think of light to mean.
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
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#32
Not so. He was the Messiah-King of Israel and the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world. That was the testimony of John the Baptist. Indeed John would prepare the way for "the Lord", not for another prophet.

MARK 1: JOHN THE FORERUNNER OF THE LORD, THE SON OF GOD
1 The beginning of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
In post #9 you said,
Quote: "John was the last prophet under the Old Covenant. Hence this statement. Christ fulfilled the Law & the Prophets and brought in the New Covenant" end Quote.

I replied,
Quote: " Jesus was the last prophet of the OT" end Quote.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the "new testament", that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(NOTE: Christ is the mediator of the new testament)

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(NOTE: Last will & testament. The will doesn't get implemented until death of the testator)

While alive everything Jesus teaches is Old Covenant. John has fulfilled his mission to prepare the way of the Lord. After John is thrown into jail he sends his disciples to ask Jesus a question Lk 7:19-22. John's ministry is over at this point.

Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
(NOTE: Stephen confirms Deut 18:18 here)

Acts 3:
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
(NOTE Luke confirms Deut 18:18 here)

Mark 6:
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

4 But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
(NOTE: Jesus acknowledges He is a Prophet here.)

5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

The notion that Jesus wasn't a prophet is unscriptural. JJ
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#33
I do agree with most of these things, and I see you did not aim to say that there was go grace in the Israel of the old testament under the sacrificial system. I think you agree with me that God gave ways for forgiveness of sin as soon as sin was brought into the world.

You bring out something I think most people don't take note of---that the world was darkness when God added light. The Hebrew word translated as darkness is choshek meaning the opposite of goodness like blindness, ignorance, falsehood. God added what is transcribed as light to this darkness, but the Hebrew word is different from the word used when the light of the fourth day was created. On the first day the Hebrew word means goodness, enlightenment, happiness. God created a different light on the fourth day, called moar. This was the source of the bright light, as we think of light to mean.
Very good. And just to add to your understanding, the word "created" ("bara" - Heb.) is only used in conjunction with verse 1 and the creation of the living creatures. The rest of Chapter 1 uses the word "asah", which means "made from existing materials". That is, the sun was already there in 1:2 and in 1:16. God had just cast the world into darkness, just like that fateful day on Golgotha - even though the sun was shining.