Mark 16: 9-20 inspiration, God or man?

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Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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hi John146,

hopefully we can have an interesting and respectful edifying dialogue about this.

when I was growing up, I would get confused when I was reading a passage like this from Hebrews

Hebrews 10: 5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not,
but a body hast thou prepared me:

because when I went to look up the quote in the old testament I would find something different

Psalm 40: 6. Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire;
mine ears hast thou opened:
burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

but if one is willing to look at original languages, I believe one will find that the situation is that the author of Hebrews is quoting from the lxx, I think.
 

Dan_473

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Mar 11, 2014
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The Muratori Canon simply establishes that there was a list of NT canonical books by the 2nd century, not that all were included, or that some were included which should not be. The 2nd century Syriac Peshitta however, has all the NT books which we have.
if the question is which books should be included in the New testament,
it doesn't quite make sense to me to say that we know the answer is the 27 books we commonly see today,
and then look backwards to when we can find that list.


found an interesting note about the Syriac Peshitta


"This New Testament, originally excluding certain disputed books (2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude, Revelation), had become a standard by the early 5th century. The five excluded books were added in the Harklean Version (616 AD) of Thomas of Harqel.[2]"


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peshitta
 
It says they will, and they did and do. I don't understand how you think I am saying they might. They have, and will continue to do so. It is you that is forcing an interpretation on it to suggest that all believers must operate in each of those activities. No, it is saying that believers will do these things, and well, they do. There is no issue.
Isaiah 29
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their FEAR toward me(,) is taught by the precept of men:

Matthew 23
13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven AGAINST men: for ye NEITHER go in yourselves, neither suffer (or spite) ye them that are entering to go in.

1 Corinthians 10
29 Conscience, I say, "NOT THINE OWN", "but of the other(!)): for why is MY liberty "judged" of ANOTHER man's conscience?
30 For if I(,) BY GRACE(!,) be a partaker, WHY am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?

WOW! 3 passages! From 3 different "periods of time!" ALL citing what occurs, when apostasy ABOUNDS!

One could almost say 3 different WITNESSES!

The first being the Father, with the Son, not yet being manifest "THROUGH" Him!

The 2nd, being the the Son, with the Father being manifest "IN" Him!

The 3rd, being manifest via the Holy Spirit "BY" Him!

The point being, that brothers? We should not allow ourselves to fall into "traps" with those of a "bullying" conscience. (someone used the "term" guardian trolls of the BDF :p) As, has been seen by myself? (not to mention, engaged by me), which, usually ALWAYS "de-evolves" into some form of "PISSING" contest! From the "prideful conscience" mindset that: "I CAN'T do it!?" (therefore?) "It CAN'T "BE" done!" **edited**

It has been said the Bible is Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth! And, indeed it can be used as that! As to how "successful" this is? Is thankfully, Not my call!

But, with all the evidence, that states that the Bible (whichever translation, or revision) is, "not the original", to which I agree whole-heartedly, that it isn't! It must also be said, that even if we had the "original?" It STILL wouldn't be the FULL "Word of God!" Although, it would be EASIER!
One needs only to go to Genesis, in the finding out, the WHY to this situation! It is also the where the focus of man's labors should be!
Genesis 6
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Isaiah 29
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
Genesis 6
5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his HEART(,) was only evil continually.
 
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TheLearner

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John 21:15
Lovest thou me more than these? (agapai me pleon toutwn;). Ablative case of comparison toutwn (disciples) after pleon. Peter had even boasted that he would stand by Christ though all men forsook him ( Mark 14:29 ). We do not know what passed between Jesus and Peter when Jesus first appeared to him ( Luke 24:34 ). But here Christ probes the inmost recesses of Peter's heart to secure the humility necessary for service. I love thee (pilw su). Peter makes no claim here to superior love and passes by the "more than these" and does not even use Christ's word agapaw for high and devoted love, but the humbler word pilew for love as a friend. He insists that Christ knows this in spite of his conduct. Feed my lambs(Boske ta arnia mou). For the old word boskw (to feed as a herdsman) seeMatthew 8:33 . Present active imperative here. Arnia is a diminutive of arno(lamb).
John 21:16
Lovest thou me? (agapai me;). This time Jesus drops the pleon toutwn and challenges Peter's own statement. Peter repeats the same words in reply. Tend my sheep (poimaine ta probatia). Present active imperative of poimainw, old verb from poimhn (shepherd), "shepherd my lambs" (probatia, diminutive of probaton, sheep).
John 21:17
Lovest thou me? (pilei me;). This time Jesus picks up the word pilew used by Peter and challenges that. These two words are often interchanged in the N.T., but here the distinction is preserved. Peter was cut to the heart (eluphqh, first aorist passive of lupew, to grieve) because Jesus challenges this very verb, and no doubt the third question vividly reminds him of the three denials in the early morning by the fire. He repeats his love for Jesus with the plea: "Thou knowest all things." Feed my sheep (boske ta probatia). Many MSS. both here and in verse Matthew 16read probata (sheep) instead of probatia (little sheep or lambs).
John 21:18
Thou girdest thyself (ezwnnue seauton). Imperfect active of customary action of zwnnuw, old verb, in N.T. only here and Acts 12:8 . So as to periepatei(walkedst) and hqele (wouldest), two other imperfects of customary action. When thou shalt be old (otan ghrash). Indefinite temporal clause with otan and the first aorist active subjunctive of ghraskw, old verb to grow old, in N.T. only here and Hebrews 8:13 , "whenever thou growest old."
https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/john/john-21-18.html

Peter got upset because Jesus kept lowering the level, type of love He was asking Peter about.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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The simplest reason would be they are not written by Mark. Myself, I would simply not develop teaching based on those verses alone without back up from other texts.

Besides if they are genuine in context they were written to the disciples, not to us.
Where is the proof that they are not written by Mark ??

It's easy to simply make a statement but where is the indisputable evidence..
 

oldhermit

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If Mark 16:9-20 is not part of the inspired text, then it seems odd to me that Mark would have been the only one of the four gospel writers not to include the great commission in his gospel. This seems rather unlikely. There is simply not sufficient mss evidence to deny the validity of these verses. The reason many people do not accept these verses is because they contain elements they do not wish to believe; but the fact is, every element of these verses are also found in the other gospels.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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If Mark 16:9-20 is not part of the inspired text, then it seems odd to me that Mark would have been the only one of the four gospel writers not to include the great commission in his gospel. This seems rather unlikely. There is simply not sufficient mss evidence to deny the validity of these verses. The reason many people do not accept these verses is because they contain elements they do not wish to believe; but the fact is, every element of these verses are also found in the other gospels.
Mark 16. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

John 3 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Notice, both say the exact same thing, except one phrase is added in the mark, and matt 28 does not have these words at all.

So one can plainly see why the words in mark appear to be words added and changed at a much later date

I personally believe everything up to vs 15 is ok, everything after is questionable at best.
 

oldhermit

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Mark 16. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

John 3 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Notice, both say the exact same thing, except one phrase is added in the mark, and matt 28 does not have these words at all.

So one can plainly see why the words in mark appear to be words added and changed at a much later date

I personally believe everything up to vs 15 is ok, everything after is questionable at best.
Yea, the words are somewhat different, but that is of little consequence. The four gospel writers seldom record events or statements made by Christ in precisely the same way. In fact, some of them differ significantly. Certainly, none of them record the great commission in quite the same way. John's account of the great commission is the briefest of all. This does not mean that John's account was somehow tampered with or that part of it was deliberately removed. Nor does the fact that Mark's account mean that words were added at some later date because it differs from that of Matthew. There is absolutely zero MSS evidence to support such a claim. Consider how the other gospel testimonies support everything recorded in verses 9-20. For the sake of brevity, I shall keep my support texts to only one in each example.

1. Verse 9 says, "Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.." John 20:1-13 confirms that Mary Magdalene was the first person Jesus appeared to after his resurrection.
2. Verse 10 says, "She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping." John 20:18 says, "Mary Magdalene came, announcing to the disciples, 'I have seen the Lord,' and that He had said these things to her."
3. Verse 11says, "When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it." Luke 24:11 says, "But these words appeared to them as nonsense, and they would not believe them."
4. Verse 12 says "After that, He appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country." Luke 24:13-15 records that while two of the disciples were walking Jesus suddenly appeared to them.
5. Verse 13 says, “They went away and reported it to the others, but they did not believe them either.” Luke 24:35-38 agrees with Mark that they did not believe. “While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?”
6. Verse 14 says Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen.” Luke 24:35-41 also says that He appeared to the eleven and reproached them for their unbelief.
7. Verse 15 says, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation..” This is also recorded in Matthew 18:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations."
8. Verse 16 says, “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” John 3:18 says “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Acts 2:38 says, ““Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;”
9. Verse 17 says, “These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues.” In Acts 16:18, we see Paul casting out demons from a young woman. “This went on day after day until Paul got so exasperated that he turned and said to the demon within her, ‘I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.’ And instantly it left her.” We also k now from 1 Cor 12, 13, and 14 that tongues as well as the other gifts were prevalent in the first century Church.
10. Verse 18 says, “They will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Paul being bitten by a “deadly serpent” in Acts 28:3-6 and experienced no harm. The healing of the sick through the laying on of hands is recorded in Acts 28:8, “And it happened that the father of Publius was lying in bed afflicted with recurrent fever and dysentery; and Paul went in to see him and after he had prayed, he laid his hands on him and healed him.”
11. Verse 19 says, “So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.” This is also recorded in Luke 24:51 and Acts 1:9. “And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.” Also, in Hebrews 1:3, “… He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.”
20. Verse 20 says, “And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.” Hebrews 2:4 tells us “God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.”


So, as you can see, verses 9-20 are well supported either in the other gospel accounts or in the epistles. The only thing that there is not a corresponding example for is in verse 18 which says “if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them.” This does not however offer evidence of any addition or manipulation of the text. There is no justification for crying foul concerning anything that is said in these verses.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Yea, the words are somewhat different, but that is of little consequence.


One says whoever believes is not condemned, the other says you not only have to believe but be baptised,

Thats a prety major difference,

The four gospel writers seldom record events or statements made by Christ in precisely the same way. In fact, some of them differ significantly. Certainly, none of them record the great commission in quite the same way. John's account of the great commission is the briefest of all. This does not mean that John's account was somehow tampered with or that part of it was deliberately removed. Nor does the fact that Mark's account mean that words were added at some later date because it differs from that of Matthew. There is absolutely zero MSS evidence to support such a claim. Consider how the other gospel testimonies support everything recorded in verses 9-20. For the sake of brevity, I shall keep my support texts to only one in each example.
1. Verse 9 says, "Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.." John 20:1-13 confirms that Mary Magdalene was the first person Jesus appeared to after his resurrection.
2. Verse 10 says, "She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping." John 20:18 says, "Mary Magdalene came, announcing to the disciples, 'I have seen the Lord,' and that He had said these things to her."
3. Verse 11says, "When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it." Luke 24:11 says, "But these words appeared to them as nonsense, and they would not believe them."
4. Verse 12 says "After that, He appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country." Luke 24:13-15 records that while two of the disciples were walking Jesus suddenly appeared to them.
5. Verse 13 says, “They went away and reported it to the others, but they did not believe them either.” Luke 24:35-38 agrees with Mark that they did not believe. “While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?”
6. Verse 14 says Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen.” Luke 24:35-41 also says that He appeared to the eleven and reproached them for their unbelief.
7. Verse 15 says, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation..” This is also recorded in Matthew 18:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations."
8. Verse 16 says, “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” John 3:18 says “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Acts 2:38 says, ““Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;”
9. Verse 17 says, “These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues.” In Acts 16:18, we see Paul casting out demons from a young woman. “This went on day after day until Paul got so exasperated that he turned and said to the demon within her, ‘I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.’ And instantly it left her.” We also k now from 1 Cor 12, 13, and 14 that tongues as well as the other gifts were prevalent in the first century Church.
10. Verse 18 says, “They will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Paul being bitten by a “deadly serpent” in Acts 28:3-6 and experienced no harm. The healing of the sick through the laying on of hands is recorded in Acts 28:8, “And it happened that the father of Publius was lying in bed afflicted with recurrent fever and dysentery; and Paul went in to see him and after he had prayed, he laid his hands on him and healed him.”
11. Verse 19 says, “So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.” This is also recorded in Luke 24:51 and Acts 1:9. “And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.” Also, in Hebrews 1:3, “… He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.”
20. Verse 20 says, “And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.” Hebrews 2:4 tells us “God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.”


So, as you can see, verses 9-20 are well supported either in the other gospel accounts or in the epistles. The only thing that there is not a corresponding example for is in verse 18 which says “if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them.” This does not however offer evidence of any addition or manipulation of the text. There is no justification for crying foul concerning anything that is said in these verses.
I do not see this, it states water baptism is essential,for salvation, something jesus left out in John 3. Jesus taught faith saved every place except for this one verse, never did he say faith plus baptism was required,

Again, a major difference.

One teaches grace through faith

The other teaches grace theough faith plus works

They can not both be right.
 

oldhermit

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So, the reason you think it is not inspired is not because of any MSS evidence but because it does not agree with your eschatology.
 

oldhermit

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Which of these three accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem is the right one. Matthew 24, Mark 13, or Luke 21. They are all vastly different. Does this mean one is right and the others are fraudulent?
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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Where is the proof that they are not written by Mark ??

It's easy to simply make a statement but where is the indisputable evidence..
This is so well known it is not funny. One need google endings of Mark
 

TheLearner

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The evaluation of the longer ending by scholars today is almost unanimous in rejecting it as Markan. There are a number of reasons for this:17
1. Manuscript Evidence. Although the number of manuscripts containing this ending is impressive, the quality of manuscripts lacking it
(Codexes a and B, it k [Codex Bobiensis], Clement of Alexandria and Origen, and the comments by Eusebius and Jerome that the majority of Greek
manuscripts they were familiar with lacked it) is weighty.
2. Transcription. It is unlikely that a copyist would omit 16:9–20 if it
was originally part of the Gospel of Mark. It is far more likely that a scribe
would add 16:9–20 to 16:8 than delete it from 16:8.
3. Lack of Attestation by Early Church Fathers. The lack of reference to
16:9–20 by Origen, Tertullian, Cyrian, Cyril of Jerusalem, and others, indicates that they were apparently unacquainted with the longer ending of
Mark.
4. Vocabulary. The vocabulary is non-Markan and contains 18 terms
not found anywhere else in Mark.18
5. Style. The Greek style of the longer ending is quite unlike the style
we find in Mark 1:1–16:8.19
https://www.ibr-bbr.org/files/bbr/bbr18a04_stein.pdf
 
Mar 14, 2011
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The evaluation of the longer ending by scholars today is almost unanimous in rejecting it as Markan. There are a number of reasons for this:17
1. Manuscript Evidence. Although the number of manuscripts containing this ending is impressive, the quality of manuscripts lacking it
(Codexes a and B, it k [Codex Bobiensis], Clement of Alexandria and Origen, and the comments by Eusebius and Jerome that the majority of Greek
manuscripts they were familiar with lacked it) is weighty.
2. Transcription. It is unlikely that a copyist would omit 16:9–20 if it
was originally part of the Gospel of Mark. It is far more likely that a scribe
would add 16:9–20 to 16:8 than delete it from 16:8.
3. Lack of Attestation by Early Church Fathers. The lack of reference to
16:9–20 by Origen, Tertullian, Cyrian, Cyril of Jerusalem, and others, indicates that they were apparently unacquainted with the longer ending of
Mark.
4. Vocabulary. The vocabulary is non-Markan and contains 18 terms
not found anywhere else in Mark.18
5. Style. The Greek style of the longer ending is quite unlike the style
we find in Mark 1:1–16:8.19
https://www.ibr-bbr.org/files/bbr/bbr18a04_stein.pdf
Thank you, there are many reasons people think this, not just the seeming errors of the words themselves, i hadheard mostof these but could not remember where
 

tanakh

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Dec 1, 2015
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I think those verses have been added but most of the content has been confirmed by the other Gospels anyway in particular Luke and Johns. The only real doubtful verse is verse 18 about picking up snakes and swallowing poison. People have died following this assertion.
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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No, because it contradicts the rest of jesus words.

Its not that hard.
There is no contradiction between this text and any other words of Jesus. The contradiction exists only in your mind. Like I said, the reason you think it is not inspired is because it does not agree with your soteriology. You and I have been over this many times before and it has gotten us nowhere so I am going to just leave this right here.
 
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There is no contradiction between this text and any other words of Jesus. The contradiction exists only in your mind. Like I said, the reason you think it is not inspired is because it does not agree with your soteriology. You and I have been over this many times before and it has gotten us nowhere so I am going to just leave this right here.
Jesus said believe only in John 3 when he said the same words, if baptism was so i portant jesus would have said baptism in john 3, he did not
And we have already discussed how the fact jesus supposedly said people who believe will do certain things, and not die if other things happen has been thoroughly proven to be wrong,

So please stop, if you disagree, fine, but your jabs are for the birds and just make you look desperate.
 

dcontroversal

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Dec 12, 2013
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One says whoever believes is not condemned, the other says you not only have to believe but be baptised,

Thats a prety major difference,


I do not see this, it states water baptism is essential,for salvation, something jesus left out in John 3. Jesus taught faith saved every place except for this one verse, never did he say faith plus baptism was required,

Again, a major difference.

One teaches grace through faith

The other teaches grace theough faith plus works

They can not both be right.
Amen.....and we can easily say that one who is a Church of Christ member will always be bias towards any text that adds baptism into the saving equation.......even though no verses in context anywhere in the bible teaches water baptism, which is a work, actually has anything whatsoever at all to do with salvation.....other than a picture of what has taken place by faith.......