Mark 16: 9-20 inspiration, God or man?

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen.....and we can easily say that one who is a Church of Christ member will always be bias towards any text that adds baptism into the saving equation.......even though no verses in context anywhere in the bible teaches water baptism, which is a work, actually has anything whatsoever at all to do with salvation.....other than a picture of what has taken place by faith.......

Amen,

This is not a thread in the debate between is it the baptism of man in water that saves or the baptism of God, its a debate on the authenticity of reliability of the end of mark 16.

Why can’t people just stick to the discussion and stop assuming things?

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen,

This is not a thread in the debate between is it the baptism of man in water that saves or the baptism of God, its a debate on the authenticity of reliability of the end of mark 16.

Why can’t people just stick to the discussion and stop assuming things?

Personally, I do not believe the end of Mark 16 is authentic.....like the guy quoted above.....there is evidence that is solid and credible that it has been added by someone after the fact...........and the truth....the ONLY people I have seen argue it's validity are those which still peddle the gifts and those which peddle baptismal regeneration.......but hey.........religion is hard to over come..............Jesus said something about 2 fold the child of........

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Personally, I do not believe the end of Mark 16 is authentic.....like the guy quoted above.....there is evidence that is solid and credible that it has been added by someone after the fact...........and the truth....the ONLY people I have seen argue it's validity are those which still peddle the gifts and those which peddle baptismal regeneration.......but hey.........religion is hard to over come..............Jesus said something about 2 fold the child of........

The debate could end quickly, they could just st show 1 other place where jesus specifically said any of those things, they can’t so their only argument is we are against a specific doctrine, or doctrines, because it is all they have

 

[dcontroversal]

The debate could end quickly, they could just st show 1 other place where jesus specifically said any of those things, they can’t so their only argument is we are against a specific doctrine, or doctrines, because it is all they have

Fully agree...........other than Paul getting zapped by the snake on the island which is a ONE off event......I do not recall any other events such as Paul's experience.....

I do remember a guy on the news a month or so ago getting nailed by a rattle snake in his "CHURCH" service.......he died.....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Fully agree...........other than Paul getting zapped by the snake on the island which is a ONE off event......I do not recall any other events such as Paul's experience.....

I do remember a guy on the news a month or so ago getting nailed by a rattle snake in his "CHURCH" service.......he died.....

I believe some did come true for some

But mark 16 said this will happen to them, who are them? Believers, thats you and me and everyone else.

 

[NayborBear]

One says whoever believes is not condemned, the other says you not only have to believe but be baptised,

Thats a prety major difference,


I do not see this, it states water baptism is essential,for salvation, something jesus left out in John 3. Jesus taught faith saved every place except for this one verse, never did he say faith plus baptism was required,

Again, a major difference.

One teaches grace through faith

The other teaches grace theough faith plus works

They can not both be right.

Lemme see how successful I can be in "un-spinning" your yarn here EG.

I'll start out by saying, it would almost be better, for one in merely BELIEVING in Jesus, and be saved, then it would be for one, especially us gentiles, being the "wild grape vine" that we are, in our "repenting", and then being "baptized!"
The reason being? Well? Peter wasn't lying, concerning "receiving" the "Gift of the Holy Spirit", AFTER one's Baptism. Because, this does truly take place.
What also takes place? Almost IMMEDIATELY afterwards? To a greater, or lesser extent, in ALL who are baptized? One could say "by default", (beings the wild grape vines we are. Not excluding myself either), we commence in GRIEVING the Holy Spirit.
It is "taught" us that "Love covers a MULTITUDE of sin!" This also is true!
Love, being the "greater fruit of the Spirit?" Is not the ONLY "fruit of the Spirit!"
Ephesians 4
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So, what is "seen" by you as "The other teaches grace theough faith plus works?" Are efforts OF "faith", IN "works", "BY GRACE", in one's "UNGRIEVING" "the Holy Spirit of God!" As God is very slow to anger! For those who earnestly seek AFTER Him!
This includes, the "seeking after" the "WHERE" in one's OWN heart, mind, soul spirit, and flesh, "these grieving's" have occurred!

If this were NOT the case? We would ALL be performing MIRACLES, of EVERY SORT!
Would we not?

Am I "getting through" to ya yet?

 

[tanakh]

You need to be a hyper-literalist to get so worked up over this. All four gospels have variations within the text and people
go though huge lengths to justify them. The truth is that God led the writers to set out the Gospels in their own words
If he wanted there to be one perfect version he would have created one not four. I believe that Marks original ends with the
women at the tomb.

The gospels were written down for use in early Christian worship. They are arranged to celebrate the Jewish liturgical year both to supplement the weekly Torah readings and the Festivals. Marks gospel was the first to be written. It covers the festivals from Rosh Hashanah to Passover. Matthew expanded Marks Gospel to include the birth story and Pentecost he also included the gathering of the Omar to cover details surrounding Christs resurrection and ascension not found in Mark Luke did the same but used Marks content differently from Matthew. Both added their own unique stories to Marks account which they both followed at times word for word.

The Torah readings both start and end in the Month of Tishrei which falls in September/October on our Calendar.

Johns Gospel also follows the Festivals but is not dependent on Marks account. It concentrates on Christs Messiahship and contains
passages of his conversations with his Disciples that are not found in the other three gospels

 

[TheLearner]

Thank you, there are many reasons people think this, not just the seeming errors of the words themselves, i hadheard mostof these but could not remember where

What are the errors of the words? I am curious.

9 Jesus rose from death early on the first day of the week. He appeared first to Mary Magdalene. One time in the past Jesus had forced seven demons out of Mary. 10 After Mary saw Jesus, she went and told his followers. They were very sad and were crying. 11 But Mary told them that Jesus was alive. She said that she had seen Jesus, but they did not believe her.

12 Later, Jesus appeared to two followers while they were walking in the country. But Jesus did not look the same as before he was killed. 13 These followers went back to the other followers and told them what happened. Again, the followers did not believe them.

14 Later, Jesus appeared to the eleven followers while they were eating. He criticized them because they had so little faith. They were stubborn and refused to believe the people who said Jesus had risen from death.

15 He said to them, “Go everywhere in the world. Tell the Good News to everyone. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. But those who do not believe will be judged guilty. 17 And the people who believe will be able to do these things as proof: They will use my name to force demons out of people. They will speak in languages they never learned. 18 If they pick up snakes or drink any poison, they will not be hurt. They will lay their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

19 After the Lord Jesus said these things to his followers, he was carried up into heaven. There, Jesus sat at the right side of God. 20 The followers went everywhere in the world telling people the Good News, and the Lord helped them. By giving them power to do miracles the Lord proved that their message was true.

I do not know of anyone who purposely drink poison.

 

[TheLearner]

"And is baptized (kai baptisqei). The omission of baptized with "disbelieveth" would seem to show that Jesus does not make baptism essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on disbelief, not on baptism. So salvation rests on belief. Baptism is merely the picture of the new life not the means of securing it. So serious a sacramental doctrine would need stronger support anyhow than this disputed portion of Mark. "https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/mark/mark-16-16.html

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lemme see how successful I can be in "un-spinning" your yarn here EG.

As usual, you always have to start off with a mocking tone, how do you exp ct people to think you have anything honorable or respectful to say (even respectful disagreement) when you start off like this?

I'll start out by saying, it would almost be better, for one in merely BELIEVING in Jesus, and be saved, then it would be for one, especially us gentiles, being the "wild grape vine" that we are, in our "repenting", and then being "baptized!"
The reason being? Well? Peter wasn't lying, concerning "receiving" the "Gift of the Holy Spirit", AFTER one's Baptism. Because, this does truly take place.
What also takes place? Almost IMMEDIATELY afterwards? To a greater, or lesser extent, in ALL who are baptized? One could say "by default", (beings the wild grape vines we are. Not excluding myself either), we commence in GRIEVING the Holy Spirit.
It is "taught" us that "Love covers a MULTITUDE of sin!" This also is true!
Love, being the "greater fruit of the Spirit?" Is not the ONLY "fruit of the Spirit!"
Ephesians 4
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

So, what is "seen" by you as "The other teaches grace theough faith plus works?" Are efforts OF "faith", IN "works", "BY GRACE", in one's "UNGRIEVING" "the Holy Spirit of God!" As God is very slow to anger! For those who earnestly seek AFTER Him!
This includes, the "seeking after" the "WHERE" in one's OWN heart, mind, soul spirit, and flesh, "these grieving's" have occurred!

If this were NOT the case? We would ALL be performing MIRACLES, of EVERY SORT!
Would we not?

Am I "getting through" to ya yet?

Aww man, it wouod be so easy, all you had to do is show jesus say these things one other place, jesus gave the gospel how many times in all 4 gospels? It should be easy to find him saying this one place? If you can’t find him even once, they how can you mock me or anyone else who wonders why it is only said in this one place, especially with all the other things which have been shown which begs to question the passages authenticity.

 

[TheLearner]

bookmark

 

[TheLearner]

there was the thing of snakes in the exodus stories.

 

[cdmeyer]

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

 

[cdmeyer]

Jesus said believe only in John 3 when he said the same words, if baptism was so i portant jesus would have said baptism in john 3, he did not
And we have already discussed how the fact jesus supposedly said people who believe will do certain things, and not die if other things happen has been thoroughly proven to be wrong,

So please stop, if you disagree, fine, but your jabs are for the birds and just make you look desperate.

just like Jesus said if you believe you will be baptized....

 

[cdmeyer]

Yea, the words are somewhat different, but that is of little consequence. The four gospel writers seldom record events or statements made by Christ in precisely the same way. In fact, some of them differ significantly. Certainly, none of them record the great commission in quite the same way. John's account of the great commission is the briefest of all. This does not mean that John's account was somehow tampered with or that part of it was deliberately removed. Nor does the fact that Mark's account mean that words were added at some later date because it differs from that of Matthew. There is absolutely zero MSS evidence to support such a claim. Consider how the other gospel testimonies support everything recorded in verses 9-20. For the sake of brevity, I shall keep my support texts to only one in each example.

1. Verse 9 says, "Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.." John 20:1-13 confirms that Mary Magdalene was the first person Jesus appeared to after his resurrection.
2. Verse 10 says, "She went and reported to those who had been with Him, while they were mourning and weeping." John 20:18 says, "Mary Magdalene came, announcing to the disciples, 'I have seen the Lord,' and that He had said these things to her."
3. Verse 11says, "When they heard that He was alive and had been seen by her, they refused to believe it." Luke 24:11 says, "But these words appeared to them as nonsense, and they would not believe them."
4. Verse 12 says "After that, He appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking along on their way to the country." Luke 24:13-15 records that while two of the disciples were walking Jesus suddenly appeared to them.
5. Verse 13 says, “They went away and reported it to the others, but they did not believe them either.” Luke 24:35-38 agrees with Mark that they did not believe. “While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?”
6. Verse 14 says “Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen.” Luke 24:35-41 also says that He appeared to the eleven and reproached them for their unbelief.
7. Verse 15 says, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation..” This is also recorded in Matthew 18:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations."
8. Verse 16 says, “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.” John 3:18 says “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Acts 2:38 says, ““Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;”
9. Verse 17 says, “These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues.” In Acts 16:18, we see Paul casting out demons from a young woman. “This went on day after day until Paul got so exasperated that he turned and said to the demon within her, ‘I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.’ And instantly it left her.” We also k now from 1 Cor 12, 13, and 14 that tongues as well as the other gifts were prevalent in the first century Church.
10. Verse 18 says, “They will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Paul being bitten by a “deadly serpent” in Acts 28:3-6 and experienced no harm. The healing of the sick through the laying on of hands is recorded in Acts 28:8, “And it happened that the father of Publius was lying in bed afflicted with recurrent fever and dysentery; and Paul went in to see him and after he had prayed, he laid his hands on him and healed him.”
11. Verse 19 says, “So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.” This is also recorded in Luke 24:51 and Acts 1:9. “And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.” Also, in Hebrews 1:3, “… He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.”
20. Verse 20 says, “And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed.” Hebrews 2:4 tells us “God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.”

So, as you can see, verses 9-20 are well supported either in the other gospel accounts or in the epistles. The only thing that there is not a corresponding example for is in verse 18 which says “if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them.” This does not however offer evidence of any addition or manipulation of the text. There is no justification for crying foul concerning anything that is said in these verses.

Very well said.....

 

[TheLearner]

Mark 16:16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. But those who do not believe will be judged guilty.

It does not say, "those who do not get baptized will be judged guilty."

 

[garee]

I believe it to be added by a scribe and not inspired by God and certainly not written by Mark. Thoughts?

Why question it?

 

[TheLearner]

Why question it?

since, there are four endings to Mark, the simple idea of it being rotted away or thorn off the end of scroll makes sense -- later having them compiled to replace it makes the most sense.

Why not question it? The Resurrection is well attested in the other Gospels and in the Letters. If that text is not genuine and was removed, we would not lose anything.

 

[garee]

since, there are four endings to Mark, the simple idea of it being rotted away or thorn off the end of scroll makes sense -- later having them compiled to replace it makes the most sense.

Why not question it? The Resurrection is well attested in the other Gospels and in the Letters. If that text is not genuine and was removed, we would not lose anything.

Sorry I am slow.

Mark 16:9_20 ??????

Four endings?

I would think you could lose out by making to no effect the warning not to add or subtract from the perfect seeing the possibility of a new revelation is sealed with seven seals to the end of time.

Why not if it is it you are saying... just remove the whole book of Mark if you think each integral part is not needed to make it perfect?

 

[garee]

Mark 16:16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved. But those who do not believe will be judged guilty.

It does not say, "those who do not get baptized will be judged guilty."

It does not say, "those who do not get baptized with water" .Its the unseen baptism that removes guilt .Those who do not have the born again Spirit of Christ are already judged because they do not have it and therefore cannot believe in one not seen. .

John 3:18 He that believeth on "him" is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.