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Here's another one for you.
Amos 4: 6 "But I gave you also cleanness of teeth in all your cities And lack of bread in all your places, Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD. 7 "Furthermore, I withheld the rain from you While there were still three months until harvest. Then I would send rain on one city And on another city I would not send rain ; One part would be rained on, While the part not rained on would dry up. 8 "So two or three cities would stagger to another city to drink water, But would not be satisfied ; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD. 9 "I smote you with scorching wind and mildew ; And the caterpillar was devouring Your many gardens and vineyards, fig trees and olive trees ; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD. 10 "I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt ; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils ; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD. 11 "I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze ; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD. 12 "Therefore thus I will do to you, O Israel ; Because I will do this to you, Prepare to meet your God, O Israel."
God had to discipline Israel time and again, and yet they would not obey. Sounds like free will to me.
A child who is locked in his room has no choice but to obey. But the child that is given the freedom to choose, then becomes subject to discipline when he chooses wrong. Why is this so hard to see? Is it because you also feel you don't have the free will to think and reason?
Amos 4: 6 "But I gave you also cleanness of teeth in all your cities And lack of bread in all your places, Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD. 7 "Furthermore, I withheld the rain from you While there were still three months until harvest. Then I would send rain on one city And on another city I would not send rain ; One part would be rained on, While the part not rained on would dry up. 8 "So two or three cities would stagger to another city to drink water, But would not be satisfied ; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD. 9 "I smote you with scorching wind and mildew ; And the caterpillar was devouring Your many gardens and vineyards, fig trees and olive trees ; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD. 10 "I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt ; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, And I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils ; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD. 11 "I overthrew you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, And you were like a firebrand snatched from a blaze ; Yet you have not returned to Me," declares the LORD. 12 "Therefore thus I will do to you, O Israel ; Because I will do this to you, Prepare to meet your God, O Israel."
God had to discipline Israel time and again, and yet they would not obey. Sounds like free will to me.
A child who is locked in his room has no choice but to obey. But the child that is given the freedom to choose, then becomes subject to discipline when he chooses wrong. Why is this so hard to see? Is it because you also feel you don't have the free will to think and reason?
Genesis 3: 11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked ? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat ?" 12 The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate." 13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done ?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."
It's not in the text? Are you kidding me?
It's not in the text? Are you kidding me?
No. It's clear that you're still suck in the mindset of the truth being determined by what we "feel." I consider the truth to be what is found in (among other places) Paul's letter to the Romans:
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? (Romans 9:14-21)
I do have the ability to choose wrong, think, and reason. Nonetheless, all of these things are "of God" (Romans 11:36), and I certainly don't have the ability to do good or seek God (Psalm 14:1-3; Romans 3:10-12). Of course, if we had free will, we would have that ability. It follows from this that we don't have free will.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? (Romans 9:14-21)
I do have the ability to choose wrong, think, and reason. Nonetheless, all of these things are "of God" (Romans 11:36), and I certainly don't have the ability to do good or seek God (Psalm 14:1-3; Romans 3:10-12). Of course, if we had free will, we would have that ability. It follows from this that we don't have free will.
Right, and that of course doesn't fit in with your preconceived notions about who God is supposed to be, as opposed to who He is revealed to be in His word.
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)
What does scripture have to say about it?
17 O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants' sake, The tribes of Your inheritance. (Isaiah 63:17)
Who "made [them] stray from [His] ways?" God did.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9)
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; (Proverbs 3:5)
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the Lord. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. (Isaiah 55:8-9)
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)
What does scripture have to say about it?
17 O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants' sake, The tribes of Your inheritance. (Isaiah 63:17)
Who "made [them] stray from [His] ways?" God did.
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9)
Your verses do not prove a TOTAL lack of free will. They only prove that God's will and purposes on earth will be realized. I have already conceded this point. I said that we are given free will, with limitations. God can retain his sovereignty, and yet give us free will IN SOME THINGS.
If your point in these verses is applied to Adam and Eve, then you are saying that God created Adam with an evil disposition, therefore, that he was evil even before he sinned. You would also be implying that God sent the serpent to deceive Eve. And then God punished the serpent for doing that which it had no choice in.
James 1: 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God "; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
Here's another one.
Esther 4: 13 Then Mordecai told them to reply to Esther, "Do not imagine that you in the king's palace can escape any more than all the Jews. 14 "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this ?"
Mordecai recognized that Esther had been chosen by God for a specific purpose. However, if she chose another way then God's plan, then God's will would still be realized. Mordecai recognized Esther's free will. However, this was before Calvin, so perhaps he didn't know better.
If your point in these verses is applied to Adam and Eve, then you are saying that God created Adam with an evil disposition, therefore, that he was evil even before he sinned. You would also be implying that God sent the serpent to deceive Eve. And then God punished the serpent for doing that which it had no choice in.
James 1: 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God "; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
Here's another one.
Esther 4: 13 Then Mordecai told them to reply to Esther, "Do not imagine that you in the king's palace can escape any more than all the Jews. 14 "For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will arise for the Jews from another place and you and your father's house will perish. And who knows whether you have not attained royalty for such a time as this ?"
Mordecai recognized that Esther had been chosen by God for a specific purpose. However, if she chose another way then God's plan, then God's will would still be realized. Mordecai recognized Esther's free will. However, this was before Calvin, so perhaps he didn't know better.
I can tell that you need to read Romans 9 again (even though I've posted it several times now).
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? (Romans 9:19-21)
We are indeed completely responsible for our sin.
There are a lot of answers that could be given for this question, but here's a few at random.
13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. (Proverbs 8:13)
104 Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way. (Psalm 119:104)
128 Therefore all Your precepts concerning all things I consider to be right; I hate every false way. (Psalm 119:128)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)
19 We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? (Romans 9:19-21)
We are indeed completely responsible for our sin.
There are a lot of answers that could be given for this question, but here's a few at random.
13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil; Pride and arrogance and the evil way And the perverse mouth I hate. (Proverbs 8:13)
104 Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way. (Psalm 119:104)
128 Therefore all Your precepts concerning all things I consider to be right; I hate every false way. (Psalm 119:128)
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)
19 We love Him because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
I never said choice wasn't in those verses. In fact, I said the opposite, that it is there. What I said is that free choice isn't there. Scripture interprets scripture.
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)
23 O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps. (Jeremiah 10:23)
17 O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants' sake, The tribes of Your inheritance. (Isaiah 63:17)
4 Do not incline my heart to any evil thing, To practice wicked works With men who work iniquity; And do not let me eat of their delicacies. (Psalm 141:4)
24 A man's steps are of the Lord; How then can a man understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9)
It's important not to base our understanding solely on a particular passage but rather take into account "the whole counsel of God," that is, "every word," "all scripture."
27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. (Acts 20:27)
4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' " (Matthew 4:4)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (2 Timothy 3:16)
If someone were to show me that the Bible taught free will, I'd believe in free will.
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)
23 O Lord, I know the way of man is not in himself; It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps. (Jeremiah 10:23)
17 O Lord, why have You made us stray from Your ways, And hardened our heart from Your fear? Return for Your servants' sake, The tribes of Your inheritance. (Isaiah 63:17)
4 Do not incline my heart to any evil thing, To practice wicked works With men who work iniquity; And do not let me eat of their delicacies. (Psalm 141:4)
24 A man's steps are of the Lord; How then can a man understand his own way? (Proverbs 20:24)
9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? (Jeremiah 17:9)
9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. (Ezekiel 14:9)
It's important not to base our understanding solely on a particular passage but rather take into account "the whole counsel of God," that is, "every word," "all scripture."
27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. (Acts 20:27)
4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' " (Matthew 4:4)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (2 Timothy 3:16)
If someone were to show me that the Bible taught free will, I'd believe in free will.
Not sure that I completely disagree with this, but nonetheless,
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)
tempt:
1. to entice or allure to do something often regarded as unwise, wrong, or immoral.
2. to attract, appeal strongly to, or invite: The offer tempts me.
3. to render strongly disposed to do something: The book tempted me to read more on the subject.
4. to put (someone) to the test in a venturesome way; provoke: to tempt one's fate.
I'm not saying that God tempts anyone. He doesn't entice, allure, invite, appeal, or dispose people toward sin. Nonetheless there are clearly cases where He has made them sin.
Like I said, I don't deny that we have the ability to make choices.
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)
tempt:
1. to entice or allure to do something often regarded as unwise, wrong, or immoral.
2. to attract, appeal strongly to, or invite: The offer tempts me.
3. to render strongly disposed to do something: The book tempted me to read more on the subject.
4. to put (someone) to the test in a venturesome way; provoke: to tempt one's fate.
I'm not saying that God tempts anyone. He doesn't entice, allure, invite, appeal, or dispose people toward sin. Nonetheless there are clearly cases where He has made them sin.
Like I said, I don't deny that we have the ability to make choices.
In particular, I had in mind the ability to accept the gospel message. God may choose us, and make an offer to us through the gospel message, but we may refuse to accept. If you remember when Moses read the ten commandments to the Israelites, they then had to accept and agree to abide by them. They had a choice to refuse to accept the covenant.
Likewise, we must agree to accept the gospel message and choose to love God. Even though we may not have the ability to seek after and find God, when He finds us, we do have the free will choice to accept or deny. It is not irresistable as Calvin asserts.
1 Timothy 2: 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Certainly if God desires that ALL men be saved, and the offer is irresistable, then ALL men WOULD be saved. Would you not agree? However, we know from other scriptures that ALL men are NOT saved.
Likewise, we must agree to accept the gospel message and choose to love God. Even though we may not have the ability to seek after and find God, when He finds us, we do have the free will choice to accept or deny. It is not irresistable as Calvin asserts.
1 Timothy 2: 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Certainly if God desires that ALL men be saved, and the offer is irresistable, then ALL men WOULD be saved. Would you not agree? However, we know from other scriptures that ALL men are NOT saved.
Exactly. However, as we've seen, it doesn't teach an "absolute" lack of free will either, as Calvin asserts.
If you tell your son that you don't want him to drive until he is 18, and yet you sign the consent form for him to get his license at 16, you have given him the "choice" to disobey your wishes. You are still his father, and have not ceded your authority in other matters.
If God tells Adam that he doesn't want him to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and yet leaves him alone in the garden with the tree, he has given him a choice to disobey. There is no irresistable tendency for a man who has not sinned, and is therefore not in a "fallen" state, to disobey God. The fact that he "chose" to do so, after Eve's temptation by the serpent, cannot be attributed to God's will or desire, nor can it be seen as irresistable because of his nature, for this would then be seen as God's will to create man to sin by nature.
Unless of course, the fact that Adam had freedom of choice was the very nature that caused him to sin.
In this case, the idea that God wanted to create humans who would love Him of their own free choice, was the very nature that would cause man to eventually disobey God and require reconciliation.
If you tell your son that you don't want him to drive until he is 18, and yet you sign the consent form for him to get his license at 16, you have given him the "choice" to disobey your wishes. You are still his father, and have not ceded your authority in other matters.
If God tells Adam that he doesn't want him to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and yet leaves him alone in the garden with the tree, he has given him a choice to disobey. There is no irresistable tendency for a man who has not sinned, and is therefore not in a "fallen" state, to disobey God. The fact that he "chose" to do so, after Eve's temptation by the serpent, cannot be attributed to God's will or desire, nor can it be seen as irresistable because of his nature, for this would then be seen as God's will to create man to sin by nature.
Unless of course, the fact that Adam had freedom of choice was the very nature that caused him to sin.
In this case, the idea that God wanted to create humans who would love Him of their own free choice, was the very nature that would cause man to eventually disobey God and require reconciliation.