Mary, the mother of God

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Jan 8, 2009
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That's why we have christian book stores. The canon is never enough for most people. And theres nothing wrong with that.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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I think it is interesting I agree most strongly with snail and I disagree most strongly with him - what a cool dilemma! Sure makes things exciting.
 

QuestionTime

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Feb 16, 2010
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So, besides the addition of sola scriptura, sola fide, and sola gratia; the removal of several books of the Bible, the rejection of praying to saints, and 5 of the seven sacraments; what truths outside Catholicism did the Reformers 'carry on'?
Probably salvation by faith alone. A salvation apart from penance and offerings to the Papacy to help loved ones leave purgatory.

Quest
 

QuestionTime

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Feb 16, 2010
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Hi Jordan,

We can learn a lot from early writings, well from the ones we still have. But the very fact that Ignatius does not mention Sola Scriptura, as in the terminology, he surely read what writings he had alone.

Some Of Pauls letters where early, possably Ad 48 of course this depends on the Galatia debate. was it ethnic Galtaia or provincial Galatia Paul was addressing.

Luke certainly used widely available sources, we can suppose that there where writings just not fully or in the form we have them.

Rememebr also that the early church still used the Torah, Jesus used the Torah, so the early church certainly read 'Sola Scriptura'.

Phil
I'm impressed with everyone in this thread. Most everyone here is very well educated in their church history. I wish I had such knowledge.

Quest
 
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Feb 19, 2010
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Aspen, thanks to you, I feel like posting a "misconceptions about Judaism" thread :p
 
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kujo313

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Kujo, we don't have many writings from that period to be sure. Perhaps Matthew was written before then, but even the other three Gospels likely weren't.

We also have Ignatius of Antioch, whom you can read online. Have you ever sat and read what he wrote? He was, most likely, born 35 AD and died 108AD, and so that would be the period in which he wrote. You can find all of his writings, and many other Early Church writings, here: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/

He doesn't mention anything of Sola Scriptura, or not that I've seen, but he repeatedly discusses the Trinity, Christ's Divinity, the role of Mary, and the place of the Eucharist as the actual Body and Blood of Jesus.

"most likely" is sceptical. WHEN did he write it?
From Wikepedia:

By the 5th century, this authentic collection had been enlarged by spurious letters, and some of the original letters had been changed with interpolations, created to posthumously enlist Ignatius as an unwitting witness in theological disputes of that age, while the purported eye-witness account of his martyrdom is also thought to be a forgery from around the same time.

From http://historical-jesus.info/ignatius.html , we find that the Letters from "Iggy" couldn't be written from when the RCc says. (amongst other things)

Therefore, we cannot use those letters.

Catholics, however, seem to "pick and choose" part of the letters for their own benefit. It's like a "line-item veto" that President Clinton wanted for the Bills that was passed in the House and Senate. Even if the letters were written hundreds of years AFTER Jesus, they still would accept part of the letters to be true because it benefitted themselves.


The only thing that can be agreed upon is what is in the Bible today.
 
Feb 19, 2010
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Catholics, however, seem to "pick and choose" part of the letters for their own benefit.
And Protestants do this with all of Scripture, so I don't see why it's only bad when Catholics do it :p

The only thing that can be agreed upon is what is in the Bible today.
And even THAT can't be agreed upon.
 
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kujo313

Guest
And Protestants do this with all of Scripture, so I don't see why it's only bad when Catholics do it :p .

Just a point: "Protestants do this with ALL of SCRIPTURE"
Not ALL Protestants.

Catholics take part of the Gospel of Thomas (proved false) and part of the Gospel of Mary (also false), too. If it shines the spotlight on THEM as being THE Church, then they'll accept it.

The problem with all this is that Catholics point to themselves as THE Church while some Protestants point towards Christ and Him, alone.
 
Feb 19, 2010
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Just a point: "Protestants do this with ALL of SCRIPTURE"
Not ALL Protestants.

Catholics take part of the Gospel of Thomas (proved false) and part of the Gospel of Mary (also false), too. If it shines the spotlight on THEM as being THE Church, then they'll accept it.

The problem with all this is that Catholics point to themselves as THE Church while some Protestants point towards Christ and Him, alone.
I've never heard a protestant NOT "pick and choose", and I've never heard a protestant not call themselves "The Church" (capital "c")
 
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kujo313

Guest
I've never heard a protestant NOT "pick and choose", and I've never heard a protestant not call themselves "The Church" (capital "c")

I see it like this:

You accept Jesus as your Savior. As Pilot question the people, "What shall I do with this Jesus, whom you call Christ?"

What are YOU going to do?

Some people stress baptism. Some stress evangelism (the Great Commission). Others stress the falling of the Holy Spirit as promised by Jesus.

The Roman Catholic Club (RCc), as far as we see it, stresses attention, veneration and worship to Mary by only a less-than-handfull of verses that mention her. Despite God in the OT saying that we shall not make any graven images, the RCc's leaders have said it's ok.
Jesus told John to behold his "mother". Yet, the RCc says that John represents EVERYBODY. We don't see any evidence in the true writings of Peter, Paul and John (I say "true" because other letters, not in the Bible, have been proven false).
Jesus told Peter that "upon this rock I will build My Church". The RCc says that Peter represented just himself. Yet, in his letters, he says that we ALL are rocks and JESUS is the foundation.

Early RCc letters were proven to be false and some are forgeries. All to try to persue people to join them. Rosary beads were used to try to lure in the Hindus who used prayer beads. The "virgin" Mary and a baby Jesus was used to lure in the Pagans who had a goddess with a baby that looked just like the RCc's "Mary" and Jesus.

Even today, the RCc tried to lure in the Episcopals during the debate over homosexuality. The RCc told the Hindus "We got prayer beads, too! Join us!" and told the Pagans, "We got that, too! Join us!" and now they're saying to the Episcopals, "We are against homosexual unions, too! Join us!"

From the history of the Roman Catholic Club, we find that there is more corruption than the reign of Kwame Kilpatrick as mayor of Detroit.

It's no wonder why people have parted ways with Rome. When there's dog poop in the cookie dough, it's time to not eat their cookies and find another bakery.
 

QuestionTime

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2010
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I've never heard a protestant NOT "pick and choose", and I've never heard a protestant not call themselves "The Church" (capital "c")
Only cults think that they are "The Church" and there aren't many of them. While I'm certain that most Protestants believe that the Church they attend has the best interpretation of the scripture, any true believing Christian knows that every Church contains errors to some degree. Not necessarily willing errors by any means, but we can't all be right: Calvinism or Arminianism, etc.. The Bible isn't always easy to understand, least of all the mystery of Godliness which the Bible says that few find.

The most important thing however is that these Churches understand the most important concepts which are Justification by Faith, and Sanctification by Faith alone. I don't know of any Protestant Church that would deny either of those in their doctrinal statement, however they do typically deny one or both by their actions and preaching. This is so because they don't understand the "Mystery of Godliness" even though it's written clearly before them. This Mystery is spiritually discerned.

Quest
 
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phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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I've never heard a protestant NOT "pick and choose", and I've never heard a protestant not call themselves "The Church" (capital "c")

Lol, Mmmmmm

what is the church Browncoat?
 
Feb 3, 2010
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those are some lovely statues - I think I might head over to the church for adoration.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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Lifeless statues, I'll give my adoration to Jesus.
 

dscherck

Banned [Reason: persistent, ongoing Catholic heres
Aug 3, 2009
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Just a point: "Protestants do this with ALL of SCRIPTURE"
Not ALL Protestants.

Catholics take part of the Gospel of Thomas (proved false) and part of the Gospel of Mary (also false), too. If it shines the spotlight on THEM as being THE Church, then they'll accept it.

The problem with all this is that Catholics point to themselves as THE Church while some Protestants point towards Christ and Him, alone.
Actually, we don't consider the Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of Mary canonical.
 
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