Mary?

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May 22, 2020
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#21
Some of my roman catholic friends were talking the other day about their Mary, and how she hears all their prayers and mediates between them and God.

This was confusing to me, so I didn't say anything to them at the time.

If their Mary can hear all their prayers, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omnipresence (in the presence of all those people praying to her), which not even Satan has?

If their Mary can hear all their prayers, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omniscience (knowing the very thoughts of the one praying, especially if it is only in their minds and hearts rather than out loud and verbal), which not even Satan knows?

If their Mary can exercise power in the lives of those praying to her, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omnipotence (possessing the power of deity to exert her will in the affairs of this earth in the lives of those praying to her), of which Satan has limited influence, but that their Mary can overcome as being more powerful than Satan himself?

Where do scripture point out anywhere in all the 31,000+ verses of the Bible, revealing such attributes of deity to one woman, and based upon what?

[1 Timothy 2:5] For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It would seem that the beliefs of my RCC friends is diametrically opposed to the very word of God itself, although they have told me that their traditions and "magisterium" teachings are above the Bible, and thus interpreting difficult passages into something they don't seem to be saying, even though they seem contradictory in spite of what sound like slight-of-hand interpretations to make the text of the Bible say what it doesn't.

Folks, I don't want to offend my RCC friends, but how do we reconcile what appears to be absolute polar opposites in meaning? They also ascribe to their other "saints" some of the same attributes. I have always understood "one" to be one, and only one. They don't believe that Jesus and Mary are "one" and the same, but rather two different entities. How, then, can their popish declarations from the past and present offer any measure of apologetic that can rectify this seemingly glaring set of inconsistencies for a doctrine that didn't even exist as official doctrine for them until the 19th century?

Can anyone help me with this?

MM

You can't....the RCC is wrong in many ways. But, we must remember they do not call themselves...Christian.
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#22
I left the catholic church and one of the reasons was the blasphemous teachings which include the one you detail in this message..

And offense is often unavoidable when one is standing up for the Gospel.. It offends many..

We do not try to reconcile with false doctrine.. We separate ourselves from evil doctrines and deny brotherhood with false religions..
Thank you for sharing your testimony. I thank the Lord for all who depart from any and all self-proclaimed authority for teaching what was never established nor inspired by the Lord to be written down by His apostles in the first century.

What's interesting is that, if what the RCC teaches their people were true, then it's absolutely suspicious that the body of teaching they embrace, and yet not spoken of in the apostolic writings we have in the Bible, are completely absent within the apostle's writings to us. It is therefore with a clear conscience that I can reject them.

The doctrine of purgatory, if it were something the apostles believed and taught, and yet never recorded anywhere in their writings, it was not declared an official belief until about 593 AD. Gregory I is the first man to have been called a "pope". Before him, they only knew themselves as "bishops." That too is an interesting fact from history that is contrary to modern teaching within the RCC ranks.

Here's a timeline of their officially declared doctrines I have been able to find:

  1. Prayers for the dead – 300 AD
  2. Making the sign of the cross – 300 AD
  3. Veneration of angels & dead saints – 375 A.D.
  4. Use of images in worship – 375 A D.
  5. The Mass as a daily celebration – 394 AD
  6. Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God" applied at Council of Ephesus – 431 AD.
  7. Extreme Unction (Last Rites) – 526 AD
  8. Doctrine of Purgatory (Gregory I) – 593 AD
  9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints – 600 AD
  10. Worship of cross, images & relics – 786 AD
  11. Canonization of dead saints – 995 AD
  12. Celibacy of priesthood – 1079 AD
  13. The Rosary – 1090 AD
  14. Indulgences – 1190 AD
  15. Transubstantiation (Innocent III) – 1215 AD
  16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest – 1215 AD
  17. Adoration of the wafer (Host) – 1220 AD
  18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion – 1414 AD
  19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma – 1439 AD
  20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed – 1439 AD
  21. Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent – 1545 AD
  22. Apocryphal books added to the Bible - 1546
  23. Mary declared to have been the product of immaculate conception - 1854
  24. Bodily assumption of Mary declared official doctrine - 1950

How did the apostles miss all those things so badly if they are from the real God of our salvation?

What are the thoughts of everyone here?

MM
 

Funkus

Active member
May 20, 2020
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#23
>What's interesting is that their teaching about their Mary didn't become an established, officially declared belief in their religion until >the 19th century

I know that's true of I think the immaculate conception, or was it the bodily ascension - edit i see someone's done the homework! She's still not officially co-redeemer yet i don't think Francis will do it any way but i think they are going to. On the other hand some things go back a lot further before the 19th century. Its Mary plays similar role to Holy Spirit i think when catholic see Holy Spirit in protestant world being celebrated they go off an add something new to Mary but after co-redeemer i think theres not anything else they can add!
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#24
Mary, the mother of the only begotten Son of God, but never the mother of God. It does not take much meditation to understand this. If this mother dogma were true, God would need to obey and be beholding to her, and she does not possess such a standing.
Jaumel, if Mary isn't the mother of God then Jesus isn't God. Jesus is beholding to His mother as Scriptures testify. She is recognized for who she is to battle against the heresies that divide Jesus into parts. Part human or part divine. Or just human or just divine. Jesus is both as one person. Jesus is God and He is the fruit of a human mother's womb like you and I.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#25
You can't....the RCC is wrong in many ways. But, we must remember they do not call themselves...Christian.
Yes we do. We call ourselves the first Christians. Protestants stole the word Christian like homosexuals stole the word gay. Very effective means to spread the lie that Catholics aren't Christians.
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#26
You can't....the RCC is wrong in many ways. But, we must remember they do not call themselves...Christian.
Oh, but the many, many ecumenical conferences and crusades going on all across this nation do indeed record the American bishops and cardinals laying claim to every person believing in deity/deities as being a part of one religion they label as "christian." Every RCC member I have ever met say they are "Christians," that they are the historic "Christian religion."

That's the difference, see? That one pesky little identifier of "religion." That has been a central tool in the hands of Satan for centuries. Anyone can be religious, and can be a part of one or more religions at the same time. The American leaders of the roman catholic religion are pushing hard for all religions to join hands in fellowship, even inviting Indian witch doctors from Oklahoma to join in with them, and accepting them as fellow travelers on one of many of the (Oprah Winfrey) roads they think lead to the real God, but do not.

The idea that they can take children's chalk, draw distinct lanes on that broad path they are on that leads to destruction, under the assumption they are creating different paths to the Oprah-Winfrey-god, are only fooling themselves and each other.

Has anyone else seen or heard of these events orchestrated by RCC leadership?

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#27
Jaumel, if Mary isn't the mother of God then Jesus isn't God. Jesus is beholding to His mother as Scriptures testify. She is recognized for who she is to battle against the heresies that divide Jesus into parts. Part human or part divine. Or just human or just divine. Jesus is both as one person. Jesus is God and He is the fruit of a human mother's womb like you and I.
God has no mother. Mary gave birth to the physical vessel that the fullness of Deity filled. "Mother of God" is of pagan origin, not something the apostles attributes to Mary in any of their writings.

GM produced/manufactured the car I fill with myself to drive to work and shopping. That doesn't mean that GM is my maker, my parent, or anything else apart from having been the manufacturing entity of the car I drive.

MM
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#28
has no mother. Mary gave birth to the physical vessel that the fullness of Deity filled.
Complete utter nonsense. Gave birth to a vessel. This is precisely why her title is Mother of God. Jesus is not a vessel that God filled. Is your body a vessel that your soul filled? Another 'vessel' can be filled with a soul when the one it's in is beyond repair?
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#29
Yes we do. We call ourselves the first Christians. Protestants stole the word Christian like homosexuals stole the word gay. Very effective means to spread the lie that Catholics aren't Christians.
I understand your beliefs from what the RCC has taught you. What they teach, versus the historic realities, well, they are not one and the same. It matters not at all to me what anyone calls themselves, stealing the name or otherwise. What matters is truth in all things. I am not saved by calling myself Christian, nor am I saved by pointing at teachings not contained in the Bible, as penned by the apostles themselves. One must blindly accept the vatican as a source for truth when one has no other authoritative source that is cannonized and has established evidence for authenticity.

Perhaps you can explain to us why doctrines not declared as official doctrine until centuries after the passing of the last apostle should be trusted? Good grief, the RCC Mary being bodily assumed into their heaven wasn't officially decreed as an official doctrine of the RCC until 1950! That's almost 20 centuries after the the alleged event. Why do you accept that?

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#30
Complete utter nonsense. Gave birth to a vessel. This is precisely why her title is Mother of God. Jesus is not a vessel that God filled. Is your body a vessel that your soul filled? Another 'vessel' can be filled with a soul when the one it's in is beyond repair?
Then why does scriptures say this:

[Col. 2:9] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

To assume there is no distinction between the physical body and the Deity that dwelt within that body, why do the writers of scripture make that distinction? Perhaps if you could explain that inconsistency between what you were taught and what scripture actually says, then maybe we can better understand your objection.

MM
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#31
produced/manufactured the car I fill with myself to drive to work and shopping. That doesn't mean that GM is my maker, my parent, or anything else apart from having been the manufacturing entity of the car I drive.
Not a good analogy. For it to be accurate you would be the car too. Separated from the car you nor the car are you.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#32
I understand your beliefs from what the RCC has taught you.
you don't understand my beliefs I guarantee. I wasn't taught by the Catholic Church. I was lead by the truths I found in the bible. I had never heard what the Holy Spirit was teaching me. Thought I was supposed to start 'another' Church, which was very repugnant to me. I thank God it was already being taught. I found it when reading the sermons of St. Pope John Paul II.
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#33
Typical misunderstanding among many. The Catholic Mass is centered on the breaking of bread as it was in the begining. It's not a resacrifice. It's being present at the one sacrifice. The lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Eternity entered time when God became man. That's why you believe He can forgive your sins today. The lamb of God is at the throne of God the Father now and forever. Jesus is with us because He is an eternal being. He didn't come to be Our Savior. He came as Our Savior. The Catholic Mass is a participation in the worship that surrounds God in heaven in the eternal moment that has no duration, beginning or end.
Hmm. Let's see what the catachism actually says:

1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

Now, I don't see how you or anyone else can transubstantiate the clear meaning of the above statement into something else that it's not saying. If you have your own private interpretation of what is said in the above quote of the actual catechism of the RCC taught to their followers, it would be interesting to see it.

MM
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#34
Hmm. Let's see what the catachism actually says:

1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

Now, I don't see how you or anyone else can transubstantiate the clear meaning of the above statement into something else that it's not saying. If you have your own private interpretation of what is said in the above quote of the actual catechism of the RCC taught to their followers, it would be interesting to see it.

MM
Our Savior shares His death with us which unites our sacrifice with His. Our suffering participates in His and participates in His redemption as well. Jesus can make our suffering redemptive just as Paul taught. I have experienced this and it is why I love the Scriptures. Sound like what you read about Catholic teaching?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#35
Dr. John Barnett had much to say about the teachings concerning the roman catholic Mary, and especially the eucharist, about how those are damnable heresies. He prefaced his talks about the subject with the RCC teaching 95% biblical truth, and the rest being a poison. That concerns me. They have a catechism that says those who deny their teachings about their Mary are lost and will not make it to their heaven.
This is true; there are only two ex cathedra dogmas of the RCC (ex cathedra is the highest level of the magisterium), and they both concern Mary: her so-called immaculate conception (declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854 and grandfathered in after the First Vatican Council’s declaration of papal infallibility in 1870), and her bodily assumption into heaven (declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950). These are mandated for the Catholic to believe, meaning, if they do not, they cannot rightfully claim to be Catholic at all according to the papacy, and they are therefore not saved. You might think that if there were any such officially mandated dogmas that they would concern Christ, but no - this is just another example of how the RCC has elevated Mary above Jesus. Some will even tell you that you have to go through Mary to get to Jesus! It amounts to blasphemy.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#36
This is true; there are only two ex cathedra dogmas of the RCC (ex cathedra is the highest level of the magisterium), and they both concern Mary: her so-called immaculate conception (declared by Pope Pius IX in 1854 and grandfathered in after the First Vatican Council’s declaration of papal infallibility in 1870), and her bodily assumption into heaven (declared by Pope Pius XII in 1950). These are mandated for the Catholic to believe, meaning, if they do not, they cannot rightfully claim to be Catholic at all according to the papacy, and they are therefore not saved. You might think that if there were any such officially mandated dogmas that they would concern Christ, but no - this is just another example of how the RCC has elevated Mary above Jesus. Some will even tell you that you have to go through Mary to get to Jesus! It amounts to blasphemy.
The world receives salvation through Mary. A biblical fact.
 

Funkus

Active member
May 20, 2020
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#37
>Perhaps you can explain to us why doctrines not declared as official doctrine until centuries after the passing of the last apostle should >be trusted? Good grief, the RCC Mary being bodily assumed into their heaven wasn't officially decreed as an official doctrine of the RCC >until 1950! That's almost 20 centuries after the the alleged event. Why do you accept that?

But these official doctrines are presented as confirming what was always believed not as new doctrines, and if anyone didn't believe it then they should of i guess
A bit like the council of Nicea which no-one objects to and that was 3 centuries after i'm not saying i'm a big fan of these conclaves or really buy it - it's meant to define what before might not have been set in stone
The role of Mary is also popular due to the belief that "if Jesus won't let you in the front door Mary will let you in round the back"
blasphemy? save that for occasion really deserving it not helpful, better to say misguided devotion if you don't like it
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#39
Our Savior shares His death with us which unites our sacrifice with His. Our suffering participates in His and participates in His redemption as well. Jesus can make our suffering redemptive just as Paul taught. I have experienced this and it is why I love the Scriptures. Sound like what you read about Catholic teaching?
I hope you don't mind me pointing out that the wording of that catechism does not say that what is on that altar is only a "uniting" with something that happened in the past. You're adding meaning to what is actually stated, which is something my friends try to do in order to try and side-step the difficulty behind the understanding of a re-sacrifice on a daily basis.

1368 The Eucharist is also the sacrifice of the Church. The Church which is the Body of Christ participates in the offering of her Head. With him, she herself is offered whole and entire. She unites herself to his intercession with the Father for all men. In the Eucharist the sacrifice of Christ becomes also the sacrifice of the members of his Body. The lives of the faithful, their praise, sufferings, prayer, and work, are united with those of Christ and with his total offering, and so acquire a new value. Christ's sacrifice present on the altar makes it possible for all generations of Christians to be united with his offering.

Please explain to us all how "she" can be offered along with your Jesus if that is not an actual sacrifice going on at the present time of each and every time it is exercised on a daily basis. I'm sorry, but your words don't align with what that catechism says in the clarity of its language. Adding words in that are not there, taking away words that are, clearly is not an honest handling of what that statement says to the reasonable, unbiased thinking of the average, intelligent reader. Was the writer of that catechism remiss in what is written, and thus inadvertently misleading everyone by misstatement? When it says "Christ's sacrifice present on the altar" has an unmistakable meaning, and we must believe that the writer of that catechism, and all the other indicators in that catechism, said exactly what he meant. BY what authority do roman catholics add to it, or take away from it, the clarity of what anyone can read as to what it clearly states?

MM
 

Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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#40
But these official doctrines are presented as confirming what was always believed not as new doctrines, and if anyone didn't believe it then they should of i guess
Given the logic you presented above, that's an argument from silence, because nowhere did any one of the apostles state such a belief about Mary. John, the last of the apostles to have lived up to the 90 AD era, said nothing about any of those things about Mary, and he certainly had every opportunity to do so if it were central to their understanding, given the vast importance the RCC places upon it today, and since 1950.

MM