They also believe certain people whose bodies are still in the GRAVE can hold a conversation with them like Mary, Luke, the Apostles, the voted in Saints and answer their prayers. One of those people happens to be the [current] President of the United States. In most settings of society, talking to the non risen is equivalent to significant signs of insanity.
Mary?
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They also believe certain people whose bodies are still in the GRAVE can hold a conversation with them like Mary, Luke, the Apostles, the voted in Saints and answer their prayers. One of those people happens to be the [current] President of the United States. In most settings of society, talking to the non risen is equivalent to significant signs of insanity.
Just like digging a well and finding water, they believe they can earn their way to Heaven by working their way there. There's no [Freedom] in their views. God is freedom! Their Doctrine is literal [suffocation of any possible movement of God] to be involved or included with the RCC's personal objectives!
I've heard it described as Christ giving to us total forgiveness and His Righteousness "imputed" to us, but the RCC teaches its followers that they must get their righteousness by way of infusion, like an IV drip.
Whew. It's wonderful to be free and to be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus without our having to rely on mere, fallible men, to give to us a few drops as we go through the motions of their religious exercises.
MM
Whew. It's wonderful to be free and to be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus without our having to rely on mere, fallible men, to give to us a few drops as we go through the motions of their religious exercises.
MM
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I watched a man talk about this...a great man of God (didn't always agree) that knew wow so much hes home now. He said about this which was so simple "can't they be right about Jesus and wrong about Mary?". I don't remember the question he was asked I think it was everything they teach.
So as we talk are we secure in our own faith? Well WHY is what you believe right? This might sound silly but are we talking to them about our personal truth our personal belief? With the Catholic faith there is so much that.. hmm that surrounds Mary. Why are some of those saints wrong?
So as we talk are we secure in our own faith? Well WHY is what you believe right? This might sound silly but are we talking to them about our personal truth our personal belief? With the Catholic faith there is so much that.. hmm that surrounds Mary. Why are some of those saints wrong?
You aren't opposing the Catholic Church Musicmaster. What you describe is a church that is built on the prejudice of generations. I can see that the truth doesn't sway haters. They just go on as if they haven't heard anything. But my point is if you want to understand you have to drop the silly notions of saving ourselves, not allowed to think for ourselves, that is just slander. Talking to the dead putting Mary in God's place,. Believing those things say much more about the person saying them and nothing at all else. But it's safer to not give it a real look.
There are flaws about protest based faith that I don't mention not wanting to cause unnecessary offense. But I could and they wouldn't be built up on false premise in the need to insure another belief stays wrong. In your own minds anyway. As a Catholic my Faith isn't contingent on another belief being wrong. That need places obstacles to the ability to reason. Habits like either or thinking, the inability to see truth from prejudged sources, in short it's a possessiveness of the truth that is the result of the fact that it doesn't belong to Protestants. If it did Protestants would act like it did. That's just a smidge. I don't usually think it's necessary for me to say these things. I think it is at the moment.
There are flaws about protest based faith that I don't mention not wanting to cause unnecessary offense. But I could and they wouldn't be built up on false premise in the need to insure another belief stays wrong. In your own minds anyway. As a Catholic my Faith isn't contingent on another belief being wrong. That need places obstacles to the ability to reason. Habits like either or thinking, the inability to see truth from prejudged sources, in short it's a possessiveness of the truth that is the result of the fact that it doesn't belong to Protestants. If it did Protestants would act like it did. That's just a smidge. I don't usually think it's necessary for me to say these things. I think it is at the moment.
In a ironic way the longer that the catholic religion has existed the more and more false doctrines they have introduced to the point now that all a catholic has to do is get a New testament and read it and they will be confronted with so many differences with the religion they have been indoctrinated into they have to come to a point where it is either the Holy Bible or it is the papacy.. They cannot believe and trust in both..
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I am glad to be able to stand up against false religion that is deceiving many and sending them to the eternal lake of fire.. Yes i an against any false religion with extreme prejudice and i am Glad God gives me the opportunity to say all i can to undermine the evil in high places that work through this abomination of a religion called the catholic church..
You sir are an ally of deception and an enemy of the LORD, trying in vain to use shaming tactics on someone in a worthless attempt to undermine their warning to the deceived..
May you be forgiven.
You sir are an ally of deception and an enemy of the LORD, trying in vain to use shaming tactics on someone in a worthless attempt to undermine their warning to the deceived..
May you be forgiven.
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well you cant really reconcile their erroneous beliefs in Mary with yours but what you can do is suggest they focus on Jesus more and they will get direct answers to their prayers rather than roundabout ones!
those who are open to Jesus will understand but those that have fixed indoctrinated beliefs in Mary it will be not advisable to fellowship with them, since they are subscribe to a different gospel and are idolators.
even though Mary was the mother of Jesus and a great figure in Christianity, shes not the name by which we are saved.
those who are open to Jesus will understand but those that have fixed indoctrinated beliefs in Mary it will be not advisable to fellowship with them, since they are subscribe to a different gospel and are idolators.
even though Mary was the mother of Jesus and a great figure in Christianity, shes not the name by which we are saved.
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No you were not lead by truths you found in the Bible. Nowhere does it say in Scripture that Adam and Eve's movements were involuntary before they sinned. And you miss and diss the gospel message COMPLETELY to say salvation is attained through Mary. <- amounts to blasphemy. There is no way you learned those things from the Bible, nor many of the other things Catholics peddle about Mary, which have already been enumerated in this thread as well as many others. NONE of it is in the Bible. You have been deceived.
Haters? How do you define a hater? Is it "hate" when people disagree? Please explain your use of that term.
I'm not sure who you're talking about, but I quoted vatican I, or II, or whichever it was. Do you agree with that statement or not? Nobody is slandering anyone. Either they wrote down what they meant, or they were speaking in a manner that intentionally misleads others, and using words with completely subjective meanings, or they meant what they said, and are utterly wrong. That's not slander nor hate. It's just stating the facts in relation to the exact quote I provided.
It's only safer to have no reasonable explanation to defend what was quoted, and demonize the questioner with ad hominem labels as the tactic rather than to discuss the topic, offering clarification, rebuttal, or whatever is necessary. Hiding behind a hay stack while shooting flaming arrows at others only risks you setting on fire the one you're hiding behind. Why not engage this with legitimate apologetics for what you claim to believe?
Fair enough. Rest assured that you can say whatever you want about protestantism, but at least answer the questions asked. I'm a biblicist, not a protestant. I do not protest the teachings of the RCC. Love is not defined by just letting everyone believe anything and everything they hear from some religion without challenge and quesation. If the building is on fire, I don't just walk myself out to safety without letting others know there's a fire. Love is standing beside those who say they are following a system of teaching that's got some issues, and thus offering to walk the wilderness with them to discover the truth, no matter how painful.
I'm catholic, just not roman catholic.
So, what say you?
MM
I'm not sure who you're talking about, but I quoted vatican I, or II, or whichever it was. Do you agree with that statement or not? Nobody is slandering anyone. Either they wrote down what they meant, or they were speaking in a manner that intentionally misleads others, and using words with completely subjective meanings, or they meant what they said, and are utterly wrong. That's not slander nor hate. It's just stating the facts in relation to the exact quote I provided.
It's only safer to have no reasonable explanation to defend what was quoted, and demonize the questioner with ad hominem labels as the tactic rather than to discuss the topic, offering clarification, rebuttal, or whatever is necessary. Hiding behind a hay stack while shooting flaming arrows at others only risks you setting on fire the one you're hiding behind. Why not engage this with legitimate apologetics for what you claim to believe?
Fair enough. Rest assured that you can say whatever you want about protestantism, but at least answer the questions asked. I'm a biblicist, not a protestant. I do not protest the teachings of the RCC. Love is not defined by just letting everyone believe anything and everything they hear from some religion without challenge and quesation. If the building is on fire, I don't just walk myself out to safety without letting others know there's a fire. Love is standing beside those who say they are following a system of teaching that's got some issues, and thus offering to walk the wilderness with them to discover the truth, no matter how painful.
I'm catholic, just not roman catholic.
So, what say you?
MM
There are false interpretations of the Bible because people have a belief that is not part of the Bible and it becomes their foundation for interpreting scriptures.
Which Mormon, Christian Science, Scientology, and the new age movement is an example which the new age movement will pave the way to the beast kingdom in Revelation 13(1 Timothy 4:1-5; 2 Timothy 4:2-4).
It is obvious when the Roman Empire embraced the Bible, Christianity, they did not get rid of their pagan ways but held unto them and it became their foundation for interpreting scriptures.
They have a female deity like the pagan religions but Mary has no deity for she is a human in need of salvation like all humans.
God said He does not give His glory to another and Jesus is the mediator between God and men.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.
We are complete in Christ and all we need we can find in Jesus alone.
Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Jesus said anybody that obeys God is as blessed as Mary and He did not exalt her.
Which Mormon, Christian Science, Scientology, and the new age movement is an example which the new age movement will pave the way to the beast kingdom in Revelation 13(1 Timothy 4:1-5; 2 Timothy 4:2-4).
It is obvious when the Roman Empire embraced the Bible, Christianity, they did not get rid of their pagan ways but held unto them and it became their foundation for interpreting scriptures.
They have a female deity like the pagan religions but Mary has no deity for she is a human in need of salvation like all humans.
God said He does not give His glory to another and Jesus is the mediator between God and men.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power.
We are complete in Christ and all we need we can find in Jesus alone.
Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Luk 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
Luk 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Jesus said anybody that obeys God is as blessed as Mary and He did not exalt her.
The consistent use of logic and reason and rejection of the mysterious to define faith... like it's a computer program:
if saved go to heaven else go to hell - I don't think that kind of logic works for God, or else why so many arguments i see here? why not all agree! Cause it doesn't define the subject matter, it doesn't contain it
The catholic church doesn't reject this, it says that early Christians contemplated these. i think they did too
so i think one can appreciate Catholics without having to accept everything
saying they're going to hell is silly, no-one knows that for sure do they?
Mary isn't pagan - pagan is worshiping nature and forces or animals and stuff like that
She's more like an aspect of God i suppose translated into the human Mary that are simpler to view as 'Grace' or whatever what i mean is its just their way of seeing the same thing, another viewpoint on the absolute
Nothing wrong with disagreeing! But complete rejection?
if saved go to heaven else go to hell - I don't think that kind of logic works for God, or else why so many arguments i see here? why not all agree! Cause it doesn't define the subject matter, it doesn't contain it
The catholic church doesn't reject this, it says that early Christians contemplated these. i think they did too
so i think one can appreciate Catholics without having to accept everything
saying they're going to hell is silly, no-one knows that for sure do they?
Mary isn't pagan - pagan is worshiping nature and forces or animals and stuff like that
She's more like an aspect of God i suppose translated into the human Mary that are simpler to view as 'Grace' or whatever what i mean is its just their way of seeing the same thing, another viewpoint on the absolute
Nothing wrong with disagreeing! But complete rejection?
Why are you so concerned? Do u have to engage them?
The doctrine of intercession has been around since the 1st century...
I can see them saying you've only been around since the 17th century...
Its not a dogma which means that Catholics are not required to pray to Mary and saints
You only need to understand one thing;
You believe in sola scripture, that the apostolic era ended after the book of Revelation.
They believe that it didn't end, that God is giving revelations even still today and always will.
But even then, there are things u believe that aren't in scripture as well such as sola scripture.
The bible never says that the apostolic age ended. How about the Trinity, not once is that word even mentioned in the bible yet u believe it, right?
One thing is for sure, the RCC has the power of God with them for who else can drive out demons like them?
The RCC is the leader in exorcisms, always has been... You don't perform that kind of feat without the power of God...
Jesus gave his apostles the power to drive out demons, and that is still being displayed today in the RCC
Anyway, if they're your friends then let it go. Why start an argument. U think it's God's will to start an argument or Satans?
The doctrine of intercession has been around since the 1st century...
I can see them saying you've only been around since the 17th century...
Its not a dogma which means that Catholics are not required to pray to Mary and saints
You only need to understand one thing;
You believe in sola scripture, that the apostolic era ended after the book of Revelation.
They believe that it didn't end, that God is giving revelations even still today and always will.
But even then, there are things u believe that aren't in scripture as well such as sola scripture.
The bible never says that the apostolic age ended. How about the Trinity, not once is that word even mentioned in the bible yet u believe it, right?
One thing is for sure, the RCC has the power of God with them for who else can drive out demons like them?
The RCC is the leader in exorcisms, always has been... You don't perform that kind of feat without the power of God...
Jesus gave his apostles the power to drive out demons, and that is still being displayed today in the RCC
Anyway, if they're your friends then let it go. Why start an argument. U think it's God's will to start an argument or Satans?
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What sounds contradictory to the scriptures is always a concern to me.
I'm more afraid of what would happen had I not engaged them.
And yet they are taught the efficacy of doing such. It's not a matter of requirement so much as it is pretending that their authority for teaching such is intact within an equal/higher authority than the scriptures.
Changing their doctrines is a known impossibility, so I'm not sure what you're aiming at.
I agree that specific term is not on the scriptures, so what's your point?
Arguing on the side of the absence of specific terms we use today is a meaningless exercise when we consider what's actually revealed within scripture with the use of many other terms and concepts portrayed. So, again, what's your point?
Really? Where's your proof for that? Movies? Pray tell...
Proof for their allegedly doing such, please.
Perhaps you can explain why the apostles eventually ceased in the demonstration of such power? Paul left Timothy behind while suffering a stomach ailment. He left behind others as well without healing them, and no record of casting out demons. Paul got in the face of Peter because of his errors. Look, I'm not one to say that God can't use people today to work miracles. He is THE Sovereign over all. However, if you're going to try and lay the foundation of such things as some dudes in funny robes doing their hocus pocus of allegedly holding up and changing a pancake into the very body of Christ Jesus to be re-sacrificed on some altar, and then worshipping that pancake, then I'm all ears.
That's the counsel I would expect from Satan, not a fellow believer who shares in Christ's concern for the lost. I'm not saying you are Satan, but we know he tempts many in the world to speak to believers on the side of Christ Jesus to leave those alone who are in need of challenges for truth.
Who said anything about argument? Look, you don't have any clue about the tone of the conversations I have with my friends. You don't know me, and you don't know them. This pretense you're trying to create out of silence is only an item of your own creation. The least you can do is ask about how we dialogue rather than to demonize my words into saying something that simply is not representative of the truth. How about offering something constructive rather than trying to encourage me into perpetrating the sin of indifference toward others?
If you think the scriptures are inadequate, then please make your case. Otherwise, it's just words with no substance for their foundation to be taken seriously.
Just my thoughts in relation to your words in your post.
MM
I'm more afraid of what would happen had I not engaged them.
And yet they are taught the efficacy of doing such. It's not a matter of requirement so much as it is pretending that their authority for teaching such is intact within an equal/higher authority than the scriptures.
Changing their doctrines is a known impossibility, so I'm not sure what you're aiming at.
I agree that specific term is not on the scriptures, so what's your point?
Arguing on the side of the absence of specific terms we use today is a meaningless exercise when we consider what's actually revealed within scripture with the use of many other terms and concepts portrayed. So, again, what's your point?
Really? Where's your proof for that? Movies? Pray tell...
Proof for their allegedly doing such, please.
Perhaps you can explain why the apostles eventually ceased in the demonstration of such power? Paul left Timothy behind while suffering a stomach ailment. He left behind others as well without healing them, and no record of casting out demons. Paul got in the face of Peter because of his errors. Look, I'm not one to say that God can't use people today to work miracles. He is THE Sovereign over all. However, if you're going to try and lay the foundation of such things as some dudes in funny robes doing their hocus pocus of allegedly holding up and changing a pancake into the very body of Christ Jesus to be re-sacrificed on some altar, and then worshipping that pancake, then I'm all ears.
That's the counsel I would expect from Satan, not a fellow believer who shares in Christ's concern for the lost. I'm not saying you are Satan, but we know he tempts many in the world to speak to believers on the side of Christ Jesus to leave those alone who are in need of challenges for truth.
Who said anything about argument? Look, you don't have any clue about the tone of the conversations I have with my friends. You don't know me, and you don't know them. This pretense you're trying to create out of silence is only an item of your own creation. The least you can do is ask about how we dialogue rather than to demonize my words into saying something that simply is not representative of the truth. How about offering something constructive rather than trying to encourage me into perpetrating the sin of indifference toward others?
If you think the scriptures are inadequate, then please make your case. Otherwise, it's just words with no substance for their foundation to be taken seriously.
Just my thoughts in relation to your words in your post.
MM
MM
Just wondering you say you are catholic but not roman catholic..,is there a difference for you?
Is it to do with the Pope edicts or is it the Mary thing.
Are your family catholics, practising or 'lapsed'.
I had a workmate who was catholic, and she was super involved with her church. It was kind of hard to talk with her about spiritual matters since she believed and practiced some way out things. But its also a cultural thing too.
In the end we lost touch but some of the things her church proscribed were rather disturbing. I didnt want to say she was in a cult as her enitre family identified with catholicism but she was looking around for other things cos she was spiritually empty and nearly joined the moonies! who are even worse!
one time she went with her family on a pilgrimage to the Vatican. It was meant to be a big thing for her, so I asked her about it, but it was just going there to hear the Pope say a blessing. her family gave money to this church like their tithe, and they did all sorts of catholic stuff.
I nearly got a job at a catholic school but Im not sure I would ever subscribe to some of their beliefs or be comfortable there if they were like banning the Bible or anything, but its not that much different from working in a secular school I suppose. You just do you.
Pray and the door will open somehow, plant seeds. but dont worry about the outcome, the rcc is a huge organisation to take on.
Just wondering you say you are catholic but not roman catholic..,is there a difference for you?
Is it to do with the Pope edicts or is it the Mary thing.
Are your family catholics, practising or 'lapsed'.
I had a workmate who was catholic, and she was super involved with her church. It was kind of hard to talk with her about spiritual matters since she believed and practiced some way out things. But its also a cultural thing too.
In the end we lost touch but some of the things her church proscribed were rather disturbing. I didnt want to say she was in a cult as her enitre family identified with catholicism but she was looking around for other things cos she was spiritually empty and nearly joined the moonies! who are even worse!
one time she went with her family on a pilgrimage to the Vatican. It was meant to be a big thing for her, so I asked her about it, but it was just going there to hear the Pope say a blessing. her family gave money to this church like their tithe, and they did all sorts of catholic stuff.
I nearly got a job at a catholic school but Im not sure I would ever subscribe to some of their beliefs or be comfortable there if they were like banning the Bible or anything, but its not that much different from working in a secular school I suppose. You just do you.
Pray and the door will open somehow, plant seeds. but dont worry about the outcome, the rcc is a huge organisation to take on.
This is the epitome of a semantic argument taken to its illogical extreme. It would only be argued by someone with an agenda.
In the sense that Mary was the physical mother of Jesus, salvation (Jesus) is "through" Mary. It is equally through Mary's mother, and grandmother, and great-grandmother, all the way back to Eve. Therefore, the person and nature of Mary as a specific individual is almost completely inconsequential to the means of salvation which is Jesus Himself.
EDIT: I see Benadam is now banned. I'm responding to the ether.
In the sense that Mary was the physical mother of Jesus, salvation (Jesus) is "through" Mary. It is equally through Mary's mother, and grandmother, and great-grandmother, all the way back to Eve. Therefore, the person and nature of Mary as a specific individual is almost completely inconsequential to the means of salvation which is Jesus Himself.
EDIT: I see Benadam is now banned. I'm responding to the ether.