Matthew 6:14-15

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#81
They haven't Preached His Death-Burial-Resurrection yet. But we know they will.
That's nice because we can read this , At the time they were preaching the Gospel ( Kingdom message ) but what does that have to do with anything ?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#84
That‘s not what it says though. It literally says “if” you don’t forgive others the neither will you be forgiven. Forgiving others come before being forgiven, thus in this case, a condition of being forgiven.

The apostle Paul never makes such claim to the body of Christ.
Is there a difference in your mind between following Paul and following Christ?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#85
Show me where they are preaching the same gospel as Paul ( 1 cor 15 ,1-4 ) prior to Mathew 27 please?
The entire bible preaches the gospel. In Lev. 17:11 the Lord told of giving blood on the altar for the salvation of our souls. God is an eternal God, not subject to time as we know it. Christ was from the beginning. The sacrificial system in the old testament was a sacrifice of blood, a shadow of Christ, but the entire idea of the sacrificial system was the forgiveness of sin.

The nations performed sacrificial rites to feed their pretend gods, and in Isaiah we are told God hated that.

The gospel has always been the gospel from the beginning of time, not from the time of the crucifixion.

There is no scripture that is different from any other scripture, it is all from the same God, an unchanging God. When we see the sameness, instead of looking for the difference, we have a better understanding of the true word.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#86
The entire bible preaches the gospel. In Lev. 17:11 the Lord told of giving blood on the altar for the salvation of our souls. God is an eternal God, not subject to time as we know it. Christ was from the beginning. The sacrificial system in the old testament was a sacrifice of blood, a shadow of Christ, but the entire idea of the sacrificial system was the forgiveness of sin.

The nations performed sacrificial rites to feed their pretend gods, and in Isaiah we are told God hated that.

The gospel has always been the gospel from the beginning of time, not from the time of the crucifixion.

There is no scripture that is different from any other scripture, it is all from the same God, an unchanging God. When we see the sameness, instead of looking for the difference, we have a better understanding of the true word.
The Gospel means ' good news ' .
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,776
13,534
113
#87
But it’s not talking about having a heart to forgive others. That’s commentary stuff. It literally says, if you don’t do this, then you will not be forgiven, making being forgiven conditional first on forgiving others.
but is His primary intention in giving these teachings to detail the intricacies of the standard operating procedures in obtaining forgiveness, or is He expositing what it means to be born again?
the matters of the heart here, yes, aren't explicit, but i think they are implicit by the topic & the content of His saying.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,581
3,616
113
#88
If one believes the sermon on the mount is doctrine for the body of Christ, then one must conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others. This would be a work of obedience.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I do not believe the sermon on the mount is Christian doctrine but rather doctrine for the Jew living in the millennium kingdom on earth where Christ will reign on the throne of David. The sermon on the mount is a kind of constitutional guide to living in this kingdom.
The sermon on the mount was Jesus raising the bar of the Law for a number of reasons..

1) Because the people had come to the conclusion that Keeping the Law was the key to justifying their own entry into Gods Eternal kingdom.. That they could succeed in doing the Law as it was written..

The fact was that no one succeed in doing the written law without failure but some people deluded themselves into believing that they had.. Remember the young man who came to Jesus asking what good thing he could do to enter into Gods kingdom? When Jesus said keep the laws the young man said he had done so from his childhood. Now the young guy may have honestly believed he had kept all the laws without fail so Jesus then told him to go sell all his possessions and give them to the poor and come follow Me.. If you want to be perfect and that's the critical words in that passage a person must be perfect to justly enter into Gods kingdom.. Something that Jesus later in that passage said it is impossible for a man but with God all things are possible.. Meaning a man cannot justify himself by the LAW But the LORD Jesus can justify a man because of what He was going to do on the cross..

2) So in the sermon on the mount Jesus message would convince anyone standing and listening to it that they where doomed to fail to live up to those standards.. That they would have to be a perfect person to succed in living up to those standards.. As the Bible says the Law condemns everyone under the Law because it reveals that all are guilty and unworthy of eternity with God.. The Laws job is to show to us just how impossible it is for us to justify ourselves before God..

Galatians 3: KJV
21 "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. {22} But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. {23} But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. {24} Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

The Law condemned us and was our schoolmaster making it clear to us that we could never be justified by law doing.. So when the the Way of salvation by belief in the Atonement of Jesus came,, the Law made it clear to us that the Way of the Gospel was the only way..

3) Some Jews in the times of Jesus because they where certain that doing the Law was the only way to justify themselves, well they had convinced themselves that they could and where doing the Law and so Jesus revealed His teachings on the mount to make it clear to those assembled just how short they where falling from the standard.. Of course a lot of Jews hated Jesus for this.. There are many people today who believe in the Works salvation doctrine who likewise believe they are succeding in doing the Law and come online here and preach their perfection in the flesh doctrine, deluding themselves and attempting to undermine the Faith babes in Christ have in the Atonement of Jesus to save them..

So we come to the teaching of Jesus on the sermon on the mount about forgiving others..
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
So is this teaching good and true for those who where listening to it the Jews under the law? Yes
Is it still good and should we strive to forgive without failure all who have done us wrong? Yes

Did the Jews in the audience or us here today do this teaching without fault? No

So what do we have and what was later provided for the Jews in the audience who heard this teaching of Jesus? How could there transgression and our transgression against this teaching be forgiven?

The Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. That covers us for our transgressions against His will...
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#90
The sermon on the mount was Jesus raising the bar of the Law for a number of reasons..

1) Because the people had come to the conclusion that Keeping the Law was the key to justifying their own entry into Gods Eternal kingdom.. That they could succeed in doing the Law as it was written..

The fact was that no one succeed in doing the written law without failure but some people deluded themselves into believing that they had.. Remember the young man who came to Jesus asking what good thing he could do to enter into Gods kingdom? When Jesus said keep the laws the young man said he had done so from his childhood. Now the young guy may have honestly believed he had kept all the laws without fail so Jesus then told him to go sell all his possessions and give them to the poor and come follow Me.. If you want to be perfect and that's the critical words in that passage a person must be perfect to justly enter into Gods kingdom.. Something that Jesus later in that passage said it is impossible for a man but with God all things are possible.. Meaning a man cannot justify himself by the LAW But the LORD Jesus can justify a man because of what He was going to do on the cross..

2) So in the sermon on the mount Jesus message would convince anyone standing and listening to it that they where doomed to fail to live up to those standards.. That they would have to be a perfect person to succed in living up to those standards.. As the Bible says the Law condemns everyone under the Law because it reveals that all are guilty and unworthy of eternity with God.. The Laws job is to show to us just how impossible it is for us to justify ourselves before God..

Galatians 3: KJV
21 "Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. {22} But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. {23} But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. {24} Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."

The Law condemned us and was our schoolmaster making it clear to us that we could never be justified by law doing.. So when the the Way of salvation by belief in the Atonement of Jesus came,, the Law made it clear to us that the Way of the Gospel was the only way..

3) Some Jews in the times of Jesus because they where certain that doing the Law was the only way to justify themselves, well they had convinced themselves that they could and where doing the Law and so Jesus revealed His teachings on the mount to make it clear to those assembled just how short they where falling from the standard.. Of course a lot of Jews hated Jesus for this.. There are many people today who believe in the Works salvation doctrine who likewise believe they are succeding in doing the Law and come online here and preach their perfection in the flesh doctrine, deluding themselves and attempting to undermine the Faith babes in Christ have in the Atonement of Jesus to save them..

So we come to the teaching of Jesus on the sermon on the mount about forgiving others..


So is this teaching good and true for those who where listening to it the Jews under the law? Yes
Is it still good and should we strive to forgive without failure all who have done us wrong? Yes

Did the Jews in the audience or us here today do this teaching without fault? No

So what do we have and what was later provided for the Jews in the audience who heard this teaching of Jesus? How could there transgression and our transgression against this teaching be forgiven?

The Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. That covers us for our transgressions against His will...
I agree, but I would like to clear up ideas about the audience that Jesus was speaking to on the mount.

They had been taught that it was only through blood that they could have forgiveness of sins, not by obedience to law. They were taught that they must pay in this world for their sins---it was a doctrine that could be summed up by saying if you steal you must go to jail. That was apart from the forgiveness of sins that the sacrifices they were taught to give as they asked for forgiveness of sin. It was truth from the Lord.

An error of the Pharisees was a teaching that it was by obeying the laws of Moses---the commandments that Paul labeled schoolmasters like circumcision and diet necessary for forgiveness. Christ pointed them to the spirit of the law as the true law in the Sermon on the Mount.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#91
Is there a difference in your mind between following Paul and following Christ?
When I follow Paul, I follow Christ. But you must consider that Paul’s teachings differ than Christ’s earthly teaching to the Jews.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#92
The entire bible preaches the gospel. In Lev. 17:11 the Lord told of giving blood on the altar for the salvation of our souls. God is an eternal God, not subject to time as we know it. Christ was from the beginning. The sacrificial system in the old testament was a sacrifice of blood, a shadow of Christ, but the entire idea of the sacrificial system was the forgiveness of sin.

The nations performed sacrificial rites to feed their pretend gods, and in Isaiah we are told God hated that.

The gospel has always been the gospel from the beginning of time, not from the time of the crucifixion.

There is no scripture that is different from any other scripture, it is all from the same God, an unchanging God. When we see the sameness, instead of looking for the difference, we have a better understanding of the true word.
The gospel I trusted is specifically how Christ died for my sins, was buried and rose again the third day. This message was never preached prior to the cross. The disciples had no understanding of this message prior to the cross.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#93
but is His primary intention in giving these teachings to detail the intricacies of the standard operating procedures in obtaining forgiveness, or is He expositing what it means to be born again?
the matters of the heart here, yes, aren't explicit, but i think they are implicit by the topic & the content of His saying.
You tell me.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
113
#94
When I follow Paul, I follow Christ. But you must consider that Paul’s teachings differ than Christ’s earthly teaching to the Jews.
I think we should all address this point. There is a sameness in all teaching for all teaching is inspired by the same eternal God. At the same time, God taught us using our kind of sequential time. We can only think of scripture as it is given in sequential time, or we can also look for the sameness that is in all scripture. The truth is best shown in the sameness.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#95
If one believes the sermon on the mount is doctrine for the body of Christ, then one must conclude that forgiveness is conditional on forgiving others. This would be a work of obedience.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

I do not believe the sermon on the mount is Christian doctrine but rather doctrine for the Jew living in the millennium kingdom on earth where Christ will reign on the throne of David. The sermon on the mount is a kind of constitutional guide to living in this kingdom.
Hyperdispensationalism? Free Grace theology?

I suggest
"Free Grace" Theology: 5 Ways It Diminishes the Gospel
by Wayne Grudem
https://www.amazon.com/Free-Grace-T...id=I38OQ3CPTJZWD8&colid=YJWEM9OC44JB&qid=&sr=
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#96
S

Scribe

Guest
#97
Lol, lordship salvation? Btw, grace is a free gift bought and paid for by Jesus Christ.
Therefore, it is clearly contrary to the New Testament evidence to speak about the possibility of having true saving faith without having any repentance for sin. It is also contrary to the New Testament to speak about the possibility of someone accepting Christ “as Savior” but not “as Lord” if that means simply depending on him for salvation but not committing oneself to forsake sin and to be obedient to Christ from that point on.

When Jesus invites sinners, “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest,” he immediately adds, “Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me” (Matt. 11:28–29). To come to him includes taking his yoke upon us, being subject to his direction and guidance, learning from him and being obedient to him. If we are unwilling to make such a commitment, then we have not truly placed our trust in him.


When Scripture speaks of trusting in God or in Christ, it frequently connects such trust with genuine repentance. For example, Isaiah gives an eloquent testimony that is typical of the message of many of the Old Testament prophets:
Seek the LORD while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (Isa. 55:6–7)
Here both repentance from sin and coming to God for pardon are mentioned.

Grudem, Wayne. Systematic Theology, Second Edition (p. 1339). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.

1611667411901.png
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#98
Therefore, it is clearly contrary to the New Testament evidence to speak about the possibility of having true saving faith without having any repentance for sin.
Totally agree, we must repent and put our faith in Jesus and what He accomplished for us on the cross. It doesn't take away from the fact that grace is free.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
#99
It is also contrary to the New Testament to speak about the possibility of someone accepting Christ “as Savior” but not “as Lord” if that means simply depending on him for salvation but not committing oneself to forsake sin and to be obedient to Christ from that point on.
I don't agree with this statement. Yes, we should go on to good works that are pleasing to the Lord, but salvation is not dependent upon any good works before or after conversion. This is lordship salvation, fruit inspectors...
 
S

Scribe

Guest
I don't agree with this statement. Yes, we should go on to good works that are pleasing to the Lord, but salvation is not dependent upon any good works before or after conversion. This is lordship salvation, fruit inspectors...
The Need for Repentance from Sin and Good Works as Evidence of Faith Have Been Affirmed by All the Main Branches of Protestantism As I documented elsewhere, all the main denominational branches of historic Protestantism have affirmed that repentance from sin must always accompany genuine faith, and that good works and a changed life will necessarily result from genuine faith. This teaching is found in the Reformed theologian John Calvin (1509–1564), the Lutheran Formula of Concord (1576), the Anglican/Episcopalian Thirty-Nine Articles (1571), the Presbyterian Westminster Confession of Faith (1646), the New Hampshire Baptist Confession (1833), the writings of John Wesley (1703–1791) the founder of Methodism, and the Assemblies of God Statement of Fundamental Truths (1916).27 Therefore, orthodox Protestant theology has historically disagreed with the distinctive beliefs of the Free Grace movement. In response to my statement that “the Free Grace movement today is not upholding the Reformation doctrine of sola fide or ‘justification by faith alone,’ ”28 Jeremy Edmondson replies, “We did not get this from the Protestant Reformation, but from the holy Scriptures.”29 His entire chapter30 argues that the leaders of the Protestant Reformation were mistaken with regard to several doctrines and therefore we need not follow their understanding of justification by faith alone.

Grudem, Wayne. Systematic Theology, Second Edition (p. 1346). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.