read your bible, if john and jesus are related, then jesus can be in the levi priesthood as well. the order of melchizedek, has nothing to do with the blood line, that said in the degrees, that to be in the tribe if levi, you have to have your blood line going back to Abraham. yet there is only two places in the bible that talks about melchizadeck. yet even paul said he has the blood line of david. Hebrew we don't know who wrote this book. however we do know who was given the law and the degrees. to be in the levi priesthood, you need your blood line to go back to Abraham. and for the record you need 12 men to start a synagogue. so again go back and study your bible. and I wonder who had 12 men to start one. lol
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No go back and read them. They are from the tribe of JUDAH not Levi. That is why they had to go to Bethlehem for the census.
Luke 3
33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,[e]
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor,
Matthew 1
1 This is the genealogy[a] of Jesus the Messiah[b] the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4 Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
you need to have your lineage that take you back to Abraham, so thanks for providing it. ie he can join the priesthood with this linage. of the tribe of levi. or he can prove his lineage and he could join the priesthood that serves in the temple. ie he went in to a synagogue and read and preached to the people in that synagogue. again read the your gospel, why was he allowed to take the scripture and read it to the people in the synagogue. you have to be a teacher or prove you linage lol
Again you demonstrate that you have no idea what you're talking about. JGIG is not an organization, it is not "a way of life dedicated to learning about God being stopped"
, but to build believers up in who they are in Christ. It has a focus on examining the beliefs found in the Hebrew Roots Movement and related Law-keeping sects
As far as I know, JGIG is not in 'major theological colleges', though it is read throughout the world.
I the goal at JGIG to "stop professors of ancient Hebrew culture"? Seriously, RedTent. You really should just spend some time reading at JGIG before making such a ridiculous assertion.
Sigh. Actually, RedTent, many in the Hebrew Roots Movement deny the Tri-unity of God and make Christ to be less than God.
No, they don't! In fact, they bring many man-made traditions into the mix - from Judaism, and much of that is from Jewish mysticism. Several of us have attempted to show this to you before, in your thread, http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/88768-new-look-galatians.html a few weeks ago.
Another false accusation. Even a cursory look at JGIG will prove your assertion to be false and mean-spirited.
Madam, cite your source. Another false accusation. If you indeed have read such a thing, you should be able to produce it.
Do so.
We'll wait.
Not up front, but here's how it goes in Law-keeping sects:
The Law ‘keeper’ will swear up and down that they believe in Jesus/Yeshua for their salvation, and that there is nothing that they can do to earn that salvation. They will tell you that salvation is by faith, and that the Law (Torah) cannot save.
However, those same people will also say that while they cannot earn their salvation, that once they believe, there are certain things they must do as proof of that salvation. For them that proof becomes the keeping of Old Covenant Law.
That is a ‘Jesus +’ equation.
As far as I know, JGIG is not in 'major theological colleges', though it is read throughout the world.
I the goal at JGIG to "stop professors of ancient Hebrew culture"? Seriously, RedTent. You really should just spend some time reading at JGIG before making such a ridiculous assertion.
Sigh. Actually, RedTent, many in the Hebrew Roots Movement deny the Tri-unity of God and make Christ to be less than God.
No, they don't! In fact, they bring many man-made traditions into the mix - from Judaism, and much of that is from Jewish mysticism. Several of us have attempted to show this to you before, in your thread, http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/88768-new-look-galatians.html a few weeks ago.
Another false accusation. Even a cursory look at JGIG will prove your assertion to be false and mean-spirited.
Madam, cite your source. Another false accusation. If you indeed have read such a thing, you should be able to produce it.
Do so.
We'll wait.
Not up front, but here's how it goes in Law-keeping sects:
The Law ‘keeper’ will swear up and down that they believe in Jesus/Yeshua for their salvation, and that there is nothing that they can do to earn that salvation. They will tell you that salvation is by faith, and that the Law (Torah) cannot save.
However, those same people will also say that while they cannot earn their salvation, that once they believe, there are certain things they must do as proof of that salvation. For them that proof becomes the keeping of Old Covenant Law.
That is a ‘Jesus +’ equation.
I think it’s important to note here that Torah folk are not focused on passing on the Life of Christ to the Lost; they are primarily focused on teaching Christians to become Torah observant.
You will not hear them tell of spreading the Gospel to the nations, but of spreading Torah to the nations.
The spreading of the Gospel, the message of the forgiveness of sins and the free gift of eternal life that the Apostles constantly risked and nearly all of them eventually lost their lives for, is not the Law keepers’ priority.
For the Law keeper, there is a symbiotic relationship between the Cross and the Law. But not in the sense that the Law leads one to Christ; no, in the Law keeping paradigm, if you come to the Cross, then you must obey Old Covenant Law. In the Law keeping paradigm, if you don’t obey Old Covenant Law, then the Cross means nothing - they proclaim this while trying to hold onto some version of the Gospel, which is really no Gospel at all.
So a Law keeper may tell you with a straight face that they rely on the Cross for salvation, but they only tell you half of the story, for they also believe that without the keeping of the Law there is no salvation.
In reality they do believe in salvation by works in a round-about-way, for while the keeping of the Law for them does not EARN them their salvation, the keeping of the Law, in their world, undeniably MAINTAINS their salvation and according to their belief garners them position/reward in the kingdom.
No, RedTent, enough with the drama.
It's simply laying what Law-keeping sects believe alongside the Truths of the Gospel and seeing how they measure up - with the Gospel being the Standard.
-JGIG
You will not hear them tell of spreading the Gospel to the nations, but of spreading Torah to the nations.
The spreading of the Gospel, the message of the forgiveness of sins and the free gift of eternal life that the Apostles constantly risked and nearly all of them eventually lost their lives for, is not the Law keepers’ priority.
For the Law keeper, there is a symbiotic relationship between the Cross and the Law. But not in the sense that the Law leads one to Christ; no, in the Law keeping paradigm, if you come to the Cross, then you must obey Old Covenant Law. In the Law keeping paradigm, if you don’t obey Old Covenant Law, then the Cross means nothing - they proclaim this while trying to hold onto some version of the Gospel, which is really no Gospel at all.
So a Law keeper may tell you with a straight face that they rely on the Cross for salvation, but they only tell you half of the story, for they also believe that without the keeping of the Law there is no salvation.
In reality they do believe in salvation by works in a round-about-way, for while the keeping of the Law for them does not EARN them their salvation, the keeping of the Law, in their world, undeniably MAINTAINS their salvation and according to their belief garners them position/reward in the kingdom.
No, RedTent, enough with the drama.
It's simply laying what Law-keeping sects believe alongside the Truths of the Gospel and seeing how they measure up - with the Gospel being the Standard.
-JGIG
I quote from this very thread "for they also believe that without the keeping of the Law there is no salvation. " Yet you say it is false accusation to tell the awful things you say about a movement.
I had a thread with the idea that Paul was not against what Christ and Moses taught as the church teaches and you say that is Jewish Mysticism. You are getting people to listen to you!!
Red,
It was pointed out to you over and over and over that the man who did that study on Galatians was pulling some of his information FROM the TALMUD AND MISHNA. The man also claimed to be a hasidic jew. You continued to refused to see it and still tried to claim that the man is teaching CHRISTIAN doctrine.
And again this is what he says he is in his intro
Regarding the Oneness of God we are Chassidic
Regarding Messiah We are Messianic
Regarding the Holy Spirit We are mystic
Regarding Grace We are Calvinist
Regarding the written Torah we are Orthodox Judaism
Etc
http://www.bereansonline.org/studies/Galatians.pdf
It's on the bottom of page 6 top of page 7
Orthodox Judaism
Orthodox Judaism is the branch of Judaism that has the strictest adherence to traditional Jewish practices and beliefs. It originated in response to the innovations in Jewish practice introduced by the Reform movement. Orthodox Judaism claims that both the Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible) and the Oral Torah (the interpretive Talmud) are authoritative and fixed regarding Jewish doctrine and observance, thus requiring modern Orthodox Jews to uphold ancient Jewish law. God's divine revelation given to Moses on Mount Sinai was both supernatural and eternal, thus, Jews are strictly required to obey this revelation. This stance is a rejection of the positions held by both Conservative and Reform Judaism, which use more flexibility in interpreting Jewish law in the modern times. Orthodox Judaism's religious observances include daily worship, traditional prayers, study of the Torah, dietary laws, and gender segregation in the synagogue. The Hebrew language is essential in Orthodox religious practices. Orthodox Jews are also strict in their observance of the Sabbath. In spite of the doctrinal and ritual strictness of Orthodox Judaism, different Orthodox sects have arisen over the centuries. One distinction within the Orthodox is in regard to social engagement. Some sects of Orthodox Judaism claim the Jews, as the people of God, should live completely segregated from gentiles whereas other Orthodox sects believe Jews can keep the Torah and live in the secular world simultaneously. Most Orthodox Jews adhere to a traditional style of clothing with strict guidelines.
http://www.patheos.com/Library/Orthodox-Judaism.html
Hasidic Judaism
Hasidic Judaism is one movement within Haredi Judaism.
Hasidic Jews are called Hasidim in Hebrew. This word derived from the Hebrew word for loving kindness (chesed). The Hasidic movement is unique in its focus on the joyful observance of God’s commandments (mitzvot), heartfelt prayer and boundless love for God and the world He created. Many ideas for Hasidism derived from Jewish mysticism (Kabbalah).
The movement originated in Eastern Europe in the 18th century, at a time when Jews were experiencing great persecution. While the Jewish elite focused on and found comfort in Talmud study, the impoverished and uneducated Jewish masses hungered for a new approach.
Fortunately for the Jewish masses, Rabbi Israel ben Eliezer (1700-1760) found a way to democratize Judaism. He was a poor orphan from the Ukraine. As a young man, he traveled around Jewish villages, healing the sick and helping the poor. After he married, he went into seclusion in the mountains and focused on mysticism. As his following grew, he became known as the Baal Shem Tov (abbreviated as Besht) which means “Master of the Good Name”.
In a nutshell, the Baal Shem Tov led European Jewry away from Rabbinism and toward mysticism. The early Hasidic movement encouraged the poor and oppressed Jews of 18th century Europe to be less academic and more emotional, less focused on executing rituals and more focused on experiencing them, less focused on gaining knowledge and more focused on feeling exalted. The way one prayed became more important than one’s knowledge of the prayer’s meaning. The Baal Shem Tov did not modify Judaism, but he did suggest that Jews approach Judaism from a different psychological state.
Hasidic Judaism - Ultra-Orthodox Jews - Hasidism
This is what that man is into and yet you still want to try to say it is CHRISTIAN at heart. The very thing that Jesus HIMSELF CONDEMNED so strongly with the Pharisees.
How is it that there is always talk of "resistance to the NT", as if the OT and the NT is not of the same God? And law keeping is always brought out as a negative. All Christians have to be Christians before they consider law, those against scripture as so many posters here seem to be, are deep in law as the first consideration. That is not Christian. What good would doing something be except as it is doing as a direction of God?
Who in the world has ever been saved by works, or what Christian would say so? No people in this movement says so unless they are not really part of it for this movement is to study all scripture. You are against OT scripture, they are not. And they always show the OT as it is rounded out in the NT. Do you see the log in your own eye when you read this?
Who in the world has ever been saved by works, or what Christian would say so? No people in this movement says so unless they are not really part of it for this movement is to study all scripture. You are against OT scripture, they are not. And they always show the OT as it is rounded out in the NT. Do you see the log in your own eye when you read this?
By the way the Bible tells us to do this
Titus 1
10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group.11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.12 One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”[c]13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth.15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
Titus 1
10 For there are many rebellious people, full of meaningless talk and deception, especially those of the circumcision group.11 They must be silenced, because they are disrupting whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain.12 One of Crete’s own prophets has said it: “Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons.”[c]13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith14 and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the merely human commands of those who reject the truth.15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.
In some groups that is true. But not all. Are all Gentile churches (and I make that distinction to be clear what group we are talking about, I realize that there are Jewish believers in the churches). The point I'm trying to make is that the structure of the 'gentile' churches does not accept a Jew that wants to culturally keep their Jewishness. And I don't mean by keeping the law, so don't be putting words in my mouth!)
Tell me, are all churches false churches because they're some who teach falsely? Neither are Messianics.
Tell me, do you believe that the church has replaced God's chosen nation? If so, maybe you should rethink some of your 'ologies'.
L
I am a born again Christian and I am also an ethnic Jew. Every "gentile" (the majority of the Church/body of Christ is gentile) church/local assembly I've ever attended or of which I've been a member has accepted me as an ethnic Jew, with all my "Jewish" idiosyncrasies . What most gentile local assemblies don't accept is if the Jewish members want to "push" the law and the culture on the majority of the gentile congregation. There needs to a place where the "line" is drawn, as far as the Jewish believers "culturally keeping their Jewishness". But this was not the case in the churches where I attended and where I was a member...but I know it has happened and it does cause churches to split.
If you are looking for a "perfect" church, you aren't going to find one. I have heard the saying that if you think you have found a "perfect" church, don't join it, because you will mess up the perfectness! Churches and congregations are made up of imperfect people.
I was a member of a Torah observant Messianic congregation for almost 10 years. There is always "some" type of law/torah observant worship in most Messianic congregations...even those which claim to be "grace" based. Some are heavily into HRM, some are not....but the "Jewishness" flavoring will always be present because that is what these congregations are....Messianic JEWISH congregations.
The majority of the members of the Messianic congregation where I was a member were gentile. (85% gentile).
Your last statement does not apply to me....I do NOT believe that the Church/body of Christ has replaced Israel. I am a traditional dispensationalist and I believe that there is a definite distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church/body of Christ and Scripture, which is interpreted in the normal/literal manner, will show these distinctions.
If you are looking for a "perfect" church, you aren't going to find one. I have heard the saying that if you think you have found a "perfect" church, don't join it, because you will mess up the perfectness! Churches and congregations are made up of imperfect people.
I was a member of a Torah observant Messianic congregation for almost 10 years. There is always "some" type of law/torah observant worship in most Messianic congregations...even those which claim to be "grace" based. Some are heavily into HRM, some are not....but the "Jewishness" flavoring will always be present because that is what these congregations are....Messianic JEWISH congregations.
The majority of the members of the Messianic congregation where I was a member were gentile. (85% gentile).
Your last statement does not apply to me....I do NOT believe that the Church/body of Christ has replaced Israel. I am a traditional dispensationalist and I believe that there is a definite distinction between the nation of Israel and the Church/body of Christ and Scripture, which is interpreted in the normal/literal manner, will show these distinctions.
I'm not looking for the perfect church. And I don't presume to know what goes on in all churches or groups, just from what I've come to understand is that 'replacement theology' is being taught in many churches...and I believe it's very wrong. I believe there is a distinction between Israel and the church, but as you yourself must be aware as part of the believing remnant, the remnant and the church are one and the same. Ephesians 2:16 "...that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross..." There is also a distinction at the present time between Israel and the Remnant.
It's just my conviction that I am personally seeking to understand the Jewish roots of the church, that it's not just something that only happened in the past, but is ongoing, is still relevant. Could it be that there are some good Messianic Jewish groups out there that are standing on the true principles of the gospel? Just because we don't know of any personally doesn't mean they're not out there.
You can see from my previous posts that I do not believe in going back to the law. But I have to say that the 10 commandments were written in stone for some reason. We as churches do teach that they are still in effect. Are we being law-keepers in the sense of judaizers? No. What was done away with were the ordinances contained in the Mosaic Law, isn't that right? But if the ordinances are required, then I agree they are judaizers. There is a big discrepancy of the meanings of the Law and Torah, said in blanket statements that needs to be addressed. We all do it to some degree, and we may have different meanings attached to them.
Since this thread got re-started I have come to understand, by some who posted here, the danger of "Christian Messianic" groups because of the law-keepers. I have gained something from all this. So, that said, I push forward.
It's just my conviction that I am personally seeking to understand the Jewish roots of the church, that it's not just something that only happened in the past, but is ongoing, is still relevant. Could it be that there are some good Messianic Jewish groups out there that are standing on the true principles of the gospel? Just because we don't know of any personally doesn't mean they're not out there.
You can see from my previous posts that I do not believe in going back to the law. But I have to say that the 10 commandments were written in stone for some reason. We as churches do teach that they are still in effect. Are we being law-keepers in the sense of judaizers? No. What was done away with were the ordinances contained in the Mosaic Law, isn't that right? But if the ordinances are required, then I agree they are judaizers. There is a big discrepancy of the meanings of the Law and Torah, said in blanket statements that needs to be addressed. We all do it to some degree, and we may have different meanings attached to them.
Since this thread got re-started I have come to understand, by some who posted here, the danger of "Christian Messianic" groups because of the law-keepers. I have gained something from all this. So, that said, I push forward.
he entered at 12 years old, mary and joseph could not find him. so he did enter the temple proper, just don't say what he did when he was in there.
they gave his blood line for a reason, when ask why are you teaching this, the teachers of law and Pharisee had no complaint.
jesus is a jew and also taught in synagogue. this is not a christain church,. I mentioned levi because of the priesthood was attached to it. I looked again and in numbers levi was not a tribe. and every first born of isreal belonged to god num 1 47-54.
30 year old he started his work , being called rabbi, teacher, etc just like danel 30 years old.
ie is the tent of holy place in the Hebrews, is that symbolic for the tent of holy in the temple on earth.
if he had to die, there was no need for him to enter the worldly one. because animal killing god did not want, but because he was sent to a jewish people,(to save them under law) he had to follow the law of moses and forfill it as a jewish person. and as he was a rabbi, teacher of the law, etc he knew the scripture of the old testament. and this is showen by his age.
age of time of baby, man at 12 years old, and 30 years old to start his ministry, fit with jewish customs. or following in the priesthood like that of the levi.
the genealogy of jesus is there for a reason. sorry you cant see this, he did enter the temple, did he have to die or be killed for that to happen, be rejected so that the gentiles could receive him. I have a bible too. just because you cant see, don't mean other can see. why else did the apostel put his blood line in the gospel.
they gave his blood line for a reason, when ask why are you teaching this, the teachers of law and Pharisee had no complaint.
jesus is a jew and also taught in synagogue. this is not a christain church,. I mentioned levi because of the priesthood was attached to it. I looked again and in numbers levi was not a tribe. and every first born of isreal belonged to god num 1 47-54.
30 year old he started his work , being called rabbi, teacher, etc just like danel 30 years old.
ie is the tent of holy place in the Hebrews, is that symbolic for the tent of holy in the temple on earth.
if he had to die, there was no need for him to enter the worldly one. because animal killing god did not want, but because he was sent to a jewish people,(to save them under law) he had to follow the law of moses and forfill it as a jewish person. and as he was a rabbi, teacher of the law, etc he knew the scripture of the old testament. and this is showen by his age.
age of time of baby, man at 12 years old, and 30 years old to start his ministry, fit with jewish customs. or following in the priesthood like that of the levi.
the genealogy of jesus is there for a reason. sorry you cant see this, he did enter the temple, did he have to die or be killed for that to happen, be rejected so that the gentiles could receive him. I have a bible too. just because you cant see, don't mean other can see. why else did the apostel put his blood line in the gospel.
In order for Jesus to be King,through the line of David,He must be of the tribe of JUDAH. They are pointing to His KINGLY line.
Plus you DID NOT read Numbers 1 very well. It is about the census of Israel. They were to count the number of men from all of the tribes BUT one at the LORD'S Command.
Numbers 1
47 The ancestral tribe of the Levites, however, was not counted along with the others.48 The Lord had said to Moses:49 “You must not count the tribe of Levi or include them in the census of the other Israelites. 50 Instead, appoint the Levites to be in charge of the tabernacle of the covenant law—over all its furnishings and everything belonging to it. They are to carry the tabernacle and all its furnishings; they are to take care of it and encamp around it.51 Whenever the tabernacle is to move, the Levites are to take it down, and whenever the tabernacle is to be set up, the Levites shall do it. Anyone else who approaches it is to be put to death.52 The Israelites are to set up their tents by divisions, each of them in their own camp under their standard.53 The Levites, however, are to set up their tents around the tabernacle of the covenant law so that my wrath will not fall on the Israelite community. The Levites are to be responsible for the care of the tabernacle of the covenant law.”
Plus you DID NOT read Numbers 1 very well. It is about the census of Israel. They were to count the number of men from all of the tribes BUT one at the LORD'S Command.
Numbers 1
47 The ancestral tribe of the Levites, however, was not counted along with the others.48 The Lord had said to Moses:49 “You must not count the tribe of Levi or include them in the census of the other Israelites. 50 Instead, appoint the Levites to be in charge of the tabernacle of the covenant law—over all its furnishings and everything belonging to it. They are to carry the tabernacle and all its furnishings; they are to take care of it and encamp around it.51 Whenever the tabernacle is to move, the Levites are to take it down, and whenever the tabernacle is to be set up, the Levites shall do it. Anyone else who approaches it is to be put to death.52 The Israelites are to set up their tents by divisions, each of them in their own camp under their standard.53 The Levites, however, are to set up their tents around the tabernacle of the covenant law so that my wrath will not fall on the Israelite community. The Levites are to be responsible for the care of the tabernacle of the covenant law.”