Mike Bickle's "Israel Mandate"
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Willie, as a vinyard church member, what feelings do you have about John Wimber and the WOF teaching?
I have had friends who are deeply involved in the church, but they are strangely odd. It is like normal life, relationships have gone out the window and everything is on this emotional plain. Some have become very demanding, and think you unspiritual not because you said or do anything, but because they "know".
Now the people I know closely for years went in for Benny Hinn and the excess of prosperity, and though I like the general tenor of the inspiration, it is off in some basic aspects. YWAM I liked there emphasis on emotional discovery, but they likewise have gone off beam. The common theme appears to be teachers, prophets, apostles exalting themselves above scripture and basic theology.
So do you think vinyard are going to draw a line, or follow the NAR down the line?
I have had friends who are deeply involved in the church, but they are strangely odd. It is like normal life, relationships have gone out the window and everything is on this emotional plain. Some have become very demanding, and think you unspiritual not because you said or do anything, but because they "know".
Now the people I know closely for years went in for Benny Hinn and the excess of prosperity, and though I like the general tenor of the inspiration, it is off in some basic aspects. YWAM I liked there emphasis on emotional discovery, but they likewise have gone off beam. The common theme appears to be teachers, prophets, apostles exalting themselves above scripture and basic theology.
So do you think vinyard are going to draw a line, or follow the NAR down the line?
"Man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord." Deut 8:3
It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God' Matt 4:4
It struck me years ago, the Lord spoke to Israel out of the pillar of smoke and fire.
Jesus came to earth God made man, and spoke to His deciples.
He spoke through the prophets and apostles, and all this is recorded in the Bible.
God does not lie or contradict himself.
Yet here today we have people claiming His words do not carry authority, they are only mere options or opinions.
THIS IS HERESY from the PIT OF HELL
To suggest such a thing is to have no spiritual understanding of Gods revelation and to bring judgement on yourselves.
It is the blind claiming they can see, while holding up as their authority corrupt and hypocritical sinners who claim authority from God.
The gospel is actually simple. You have got to have love burning from your heart outwards, inspired by Jesus and who he is. If you fail this test you fail everything. From the time of Jesus till today the same gospel has been preached and lived by His people.
That people here claim to question such basic ideas shows how far deluded many have become or maybe never knew the Lord to start with.
It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God' Matt 4:4
It struck me years ago, the Lord spoke to Israel out of the pillar of smoke and fire.
Jesus came to earth God made man, and spoke to His deciples.
He spoke through the prophets and apostles, and all this is recorded in the Bible.
God does not lie or contradict himself.
Yet here today we have people claiming His words do not carry authority, they are only mere options or opinions.
THIS IS HERESY from the PIT OF HELL
To suggest such a thing is to have no spiritual understanding of Gods revelation and to bring judgement on yourselves.
It is the blind claiming they can see, while holding up as their authority corrupt and hypocritical sinners who claim authority from God.
The gospel is actually simple. You have got to have love burning from your heart outwards, inspired by Jesus and who he is. If you fail this test you fail everything. From the time of Jesus till today the same gospel has been preached and lived by His people.
That people here claim to question such basic ideas shows how far deluded many have become or maybe never knew the Lord to start with.
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There is a subtle suggestion here. You can only accept Gods words if everything that is written you understand.
Any part you find difficult means the whole thing is just advisery.
Think of where you heart is if you follow this through. The emphasis is not on progression or discovery or discussion but dismissal of basic authority and ideas. It is like a science teacher who simplifies physics so it can be understood has just undermined the whole of science which must be false because it is hard to understand what we know.
Or Jesus spoke in parables to give spiritual insight into the Kingdom, but that means it is meaningless because it is not clear quite what all the symbols mean.
Another picture is the lack of clarity give depth, where as you discover life, different implications become clear.
If you know what a fractal distribution pattern is, it is an infinite pattern which repeats the closer you look infinitely, yet the equation that generates it is quite simple. I have found this with parables, so so much is said in the gosples 40 years later they still speak deeply to me, though it would appear quite simple issues, but actually they are unbelievably complex and nuanced.
But then to those who do not know the Lord, it is an empty book, like any fictional story on the book shelf.
Jesus said of His words
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Mark 13:31
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. John 15:7
Any part you find difficult means the whole thing is just advisery.
Think of where you heart is if you follow this through. The emphasis is not on progression or discovery or discussion but dismissal of basic authority and ideas. It is like a science teacher who simplifies physics so it can be understood has just undermined the whole of science which must be false because it is hard to understand what we know.
Or Jesus spoke in parables to give spiritual insight into the Kingdom, but that means it is meaningless because it is not clear quite what all the symbols mean.
Another picture is the lack of clarity give depth, where as you discover life, different implications become clear.
If you know what a fractal distribution pattern is, it is an infinite pattern which repeats the closer you look infinitely, yet the equation that generates it is quite simple. I have found this with parables, so so much is said in the gosples 40 years later they still speak deeply to me, though it would appear quite simple issues, but actually they are unbelievably complex and nuanced.
But then to those who do not know the Lord, it is an empty book, like any fictional story on the book shelf.
Jesus said of His words
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. Mark 13:31
If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. John 15:7
I haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. The Vineyard I attend (BTW, I'm not a "member" because we have no membership roles, whatsoever, at our congregation) consists, in part, of members of another Vineyard church that had to close its doors because they ran out of money, taking in and feeding homeless. And very few of us at the SPV have much money, at all. I doubt there is even one 2015 car in the parking lot.
Then you are very ignorant of your community. Every organisation has a budget, income, outgoings, people who make the decisions, who move the money about, and the governing membership. A church you described is a dictatorship of the preachers / elders and you just leave if you do not like their ideas.
The baptists stopped this by having a membership which has to have a corum for major decisions to be made, and people are voted into office by the body. It makes everything above board and all the accounts etc are available for all members to inspect and question. Whole congregations do go off, but it is much harder in this way of governance.
The prosperity gospel is about sowing seeds which return blessing to yourself, not getting wealth yourselves. WOF is about theology which says you can claim healing over anything, and if it fails, it is because your faith was not big enough.
Latter rain theology is you are gods who can command things into existance, and intercessory prayer is irrelevent, you can command things to happen. Now this is a very different gospel and a very different relationship with the Lord, so I was asking how much you are aware of these ideas in your congregation.
Now I know many "christians" who have got excited about heavenly portals, territorial spirits and gifts exercised by christians and non-christians as if this is biblical or even anything to do with Jesus. The occult or new age is closer to these ideas, so I was wondering how this has come to your group.
I challenged one friend I have known for 30 years about this, but they have gone quiet. The idea of accepting a man of God as a heretic would be hard for them to take. I challenged this man a year or so ago, and his answer is he is just a heart beat away from me. To put it mildly, he is simply nuts and is preaching the world not the gospel.
So I am shocked at how far seemingly sound people I have known have gone into insanity in the name of faith.
Does this help you?
The baptists stopped this by having a membership which has to have a corum for major decisions to be made, and people are voted into office by the body. It makes everything above board and all the accounts etc are available for all members to inspect and question. Whole congregations do go off, but it is much harder in this way of governance.
The prosperity gospel is about sowing seeds which return blessing to yourself, not getting wealth yourselves. WOF is about theology which says you can claim healing over anything, and if it fails, it is because your faith was not big enough.
Latter rain theology is you are gods who can command things into existance, and intercessory prayer is irrelevent, you can command things to happen. Now this is a very different gospel and a very different relationship with the Lord, so I was asking how much you are aware of these ideas in your congregation.
Now I know many "christians" who have got excited about heavenly portals, territorial spirits and gifts exercised by christians and non-christians as if this is biblical or even anything to do with Jesus. The occult or new age is closer to these ideas, so I was wondering how this has come to your group.
I challenged one friend I have known for 30 years about this, but they have gone quiet. The idea of accepting a man of God as a heretic would be hard for them to take. I challenged this man a year or so ago, and his answer is he is just a heart beat away from me. To put it mildly, he is simply nuts and is preaching the world not the gospel.
So I am shocked at how far seemingly sound people I have known have gone into insanity in the name of faith.
Does this help you?
We are called to put love and our allegiance to Gods will above that of our family.
Now the argument you have used here is used by atheists and muslims, but those who do not know Jesus.
Unfortunately that puts you in a strange camp for one who claims to follow him.
There are some basic failures of understanding of what Jesus is saying, but this is His point. Unless you trust him and the essential nature of the gospel of love and peace, you miss the truth he speaks.
The reason why the apostles wrote what they wrote is because the Holy Spirit inspired them. If you cannot see the real meaning behind the words, it is the spirit in you that is failing not the word of the Lord.
Now the argument you have used here is used by atheists and muslims, but those who do not know Jesus.
Unfortunately that puts you in a strange camp for one who claims to follow him.
There are some basic failures of understanding of what Jesus is saying, but this is His point. Unless you trust him and the essential nature of the gospel of love and peace, you miss the truth he speaks.
The reason why the apostles wrote what they wrote is because the Holy Spirit inspired them. If you cannot see the real meaning behind the words, it is the spirit in you that is failing not the word of the Lord.
Well, truthfully, and possibly more accurately, it is the story of our family....... how we began... where we screwed up... how God gave us a way out of our self-made mess... and... "Yes", suggestions on how to keep from killing one another.
Other than one simple thing, "trust Jesus", it certainly is not an instruction manual on how to get to Heaven. (although, some people seem to think it is.)
Other than one simple thing, "trust Jesus", it certainly is not an instruction manual on how to get to Heaven. (although, some people seem to think it is.)