Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[cv5]

That cv5 is an unrepentant liar is one of the main reasons I usually ignore him.

I found out he was an unrepentant liar when he continually refused to admit that a grown
adult man was not a little kid as he repeatedly called him. Certainly the story he wanted to
tell was better with his embellishments and false claims, but that should not be our motivation.

And yes, the fact that the story was about a grown adult male was pointed out to him.
Made no difference. He refused to back down from calling that man a little kid.

Cry me a river.

Oh.....and BTW, are you watching the Congressional hearings regarding COVID and Fauci?
Yes, it was fundamentally all a lie, an hoax, a criminal pretense, a vast profiteering racket and much much worse.

That now being PROVEN to be the case, why then were these "authorities" arresting little kids playing hockey anyways?
I mean were these "authorities" dumb as a bag of hammers and just taking orders?
Why were they engaged in massive civil rights violations when they are duty-bound to protect them?

Just to let you know......it is my opinion that if the Berlin police would have defied Hitler (instead of heartily joining him and his gangstas)........WW2 may never have started. But......the Berlin police took what Hitler was offering: power. More power. Power that they were lusting for in their hearts.

In the summer of 1938, Berlin Police President Helldorff and Joseph Goebbels, Gauleiter of Berlin and Minister of Propaganda, instructed the Berlin police force to use existing traffic regulations and other minor laws to harass the city’s Jews. After Kristallnacht in November 1938, German policemen arrested approximately 30,000 Jewish men and sent them to concentration camps.

 

[Cameron143]

Tisk tisk Cameron, how dare you say that God must move first... You know very well there are people here who want to believe they did not need God's help at all like all those other poor people did.

Thankfully, not understanding the outworking of salvation doesn't inhibit salvation. In this regard, God is like those Scrubbing Bubbles...He keeps working so you don't have to.

 

[cv5]

That cv5 is an unrepentant liar is one of the main reasons I usually ignore him.

I found out he was an unrepentant liar when he continually refused to admit that a grown
adult man was not a little kid as he repeatedly called him. Certainly the story he wanted to
tell was better with his embellishments and false claims, but that should not be our motivation.

And yes, the fact that the story was about a grown adult male was pointed out to him.
Made no difference. He refused to back down from calling that man a little kid.

A blast from the past. Enjoy!

https://christianchat.com/threads/w...is-death-and-resurrection.210204/post-5045781

 

[cv5]

Tisk tisk Cameron, how dare you say that God must move first...

The wise know EXACTLY what is going on here. The talent-buriers? Not so much.

2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7
Therefore said he, Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.

 

[Inquisitor]

How many of the Israel of God were grafted out?

The plain reading states that the nation of Israel was severed from Christ.

If there was a negligible number of Jews that believed in Jesus.

That does not contradict, the fact, that old covenant Israel was severed from Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

The plain reading states that the nation of Israel was severed from Christ.

If there was a negligible number of Jews that believed in Jesus.

That does not contradict, the fact, that old covenant Israel was severed from Christ.

Indeed they were because they failed to keep the covenant. But the warning that follows doesn't necessarily have to be with grafted in or out, but that one should ensure they are indeed included in Christ...making one's calling and election sure.

 

[Inquisitor]

we know they have stumbled, have they stumbled so as to fall? God forbid.

Hello Evmur.

Israel have been grafted out for two thousand years!

Are you saying that all those Jews that did not believe, for two thousand
years are saved?

 

[Inquisitor]

Indeed they were because they failed to keep the covenant. But the warning that follows doesn't necessarily have to be with grafted in or out, but that one should ensure they are indeed included in Christ...making one's calling and election sure.

There are two points you must consider.

1) Old covenant Israel no longer exists and they were severed for failure
to honor the conditions of the old covenant

2) The conversion rate of Jews to Jesus is extremely low, even today, always
has been

 

[cv5]

The wise know EXACTLY what is going on here. The talent-buriers? Not so much.

2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7
Therefore said he, Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.

Just to let you know @Magenta (in case you didn't), this proves that God DOES indeed "move first".
Ties perfectly into Genesis ch 3, ch 15 and ch 22.
Intentionally of course.

 

[Cameron143]

There are two points you must consider.

1) Old covenant Israel no longer exists and they were severed for failure
to honor the conditions of the old covenant

2) The conversion rate of Jews to Jesus is extremely low, even today, always
has been

I'm not getting your point. There was only ever a remnant in Israel that were truly of Israel. And at the time of Paul's writing, the old covenant was still in effect for Israel.

 

[cv5]

I suppose that He could be if He wanted to be but...

Who wanted what? Because Somebody wanted something, and some others did not want it. At all.
Of course you could argue that everybody got thrown in the lake of fire dumpster whether they wanted it or not.
But that, of course, would be blasphemy.

Mat 11:21
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

The context of 7th chapter of Acts, in general, provides examples of unbeliever's jealousy of believers. Jealousy is different from envy, nuanced from it in that it begrudges what the holder believes is rightfully his, as opposed to envy which desires to have what the other possesses....

I started this reply I don't know how many days ago, so I don't remember the point I was working toward... but I'm sure it was relevant and might've even been helpful, somehow, so I decided to finish the post rather than just simply deleting it for having so far behind.

In Stephen's case, he looked up and claimed that He saw God... which enraged them, and they drug him out and hurled stones at him. And Stephen fell asleep, and I daresay he fell asleep like he was being tucked into a comfy bed.

So, what were these so jealous, or envious, of even though Stephen just presented them with the message that, if heard, would grant them with exactly what he possessed also? However, that Stephen, just prior to having said that He saw Jesus standing, he had just told them that they had failed to keep the law (and in their mind, this translated to "you failed to keep the law, but I have not...since I can see God and you cannot) provides some insight that they were stirred up with envy.... or perhaps both envy and jealousy, in believing Stephen 'taking' from them the righteousness they'd works so hard to project (although the effort was toward their friends' regard rather than God's).

And so, they just weren't having it because, up to that point, their peers had thought so much of them.
Yes, I'm leaning toward envy stopping up one ear and jealousy stopping up the other.

It's always something within us that stops the intentions of God in our own personal lives. Even with Satan it was "Pride."

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

It is always this way each and every time.

The entire "framework" has been completely dismantled by apologists over and over again through textual analysis, logic and reason but it does not matter it is a huge challenge to dislodge it from people who see it in the scripture.

Indeed, it has been torn a part by the Holy Word of God but men will ignore God for the instructions of other men, the Traditions of Men will be an issue until everything is finished.

 

[HeIsHere]

Indeed, it has been torn a part by the Holy Word of God but men will ignore God for the instructions of other men, the Traditions of Men will be an issue until everything is finished.

Agree.


Mark 16:15, Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”


And to those to whom God does not give a NEW heart first this bold proclamation becomes a lie.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

If God's sovereignty overrides man's free will then the young rich man would have given his possessions away to the poor because the sovereignty of God would have forced him to do so.

But my Bible says he rejected God and Jesus told His Disciples it's easier for a camel to walk through the eye of an needle before a rich man enters into Heaven.

But God's sovereignty, if it was used in every example, the Rich Man would have given his things away.

Jesus said, ALL he had to do, in ""order to be saved" was give his wealth away.

I see no such sovereignty at all displayed but 100% Free Will, which is literally how it happens with everyone.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Agree.


Mark 16:15, Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”


And to those to whom God does not give a NEW heart first this bold proclamation becomes a lie.

Amen, well said

 

[HeIsHere]

Cry me a river.

Haven't hear that expression is so long. lol

 

[maxamir]

And THAT......is the primordial lie of Satan. The other being that true life and true free will do not exist, making all creation hapless puppets on a string and God a wicked tyrant.

Concomitantly, Satan also accuses God of being an unjust wicked judge, and cannot judge sin. Which Satan hopes is going to work in the court of heaven at his trial.

God, of course, has an answer to these false charges, the right ones, and the ones that work.

"The New American Standard Bible gives the sense of Isaiah 45:6-7 more clearly: "There is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." In other words, God devises calamity as a judgment for the wicked. But in no sense is He the author of evil."

God decreed the greatest evil this world has ever seen in killing His own Son (Isa 53:4) at the hands of evil men to save His people from their sin (Acts 2:23, 4:28) and He was pleased to do so (Isa 53:10) and Christ rejoiced in this being done (Heb 12:2) for His greater glory but you somehow think that God is not sovereign in all things including the evil that happens for the good of the grace of His people (Rom 8:28) and the good of His wrath for the wicked.

Everyone is born a slave to sin and Satan, his evil puppet and you are much better off being a willing puppet of God out of gratitude for Hs great salvation!

 

[maxamir]

You completely missed the warning that Paul gave to the Gentiles,

Romans 11:19-21
You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right,
they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited,
but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

I placed the warning in bold so that you won't miss it.

Gentiles can be severed from Christ, fact.

Israel had already been grafted out.

Gentiles only stand by their faith, have you got that?

both Jew and Gentile in Paul's time only stood by the faith that was granted to them by grace. Paul did not live to see the destruction of the temple and along with it, all of the systems of the Old Covenant that you seem to want to return to.

 

[maxamir]

because having believed we must also receive. We have to seal the deal.

God having subdued our will He is ready to will in us to do of His good pleasure.

Paul was told to go to the street called Straight in Damascus and enquire of one Ananias, there Ananias laid his hands upon him and he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Cornelius of course must send for Simon Peter

These are not works as such but they are the process and we are active in it.

In another place Paul says that Christ was in him always only He was only revealed or made manifest at the time of Paul's conversion. Paul's conversion could never be said to be according to his will for his will was set to destroy the gospel.
Writing in Romans 7 he writes that when he wanted to do good he did evil instead, thanks be unto God Jesus Christ set him free from that bondage.

the deal has already been sealed in Christ and proof of that is found in those who by grace alone, gratefully obey and endure to the end.

Did Christ die for those in Hell?