Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

[cv5]

"The sign of Jonah has different meanings in Judaism and Christianity.

The "sign if Jonah" is a Messianic prophecy. A prophetic type of the Resurrection after exactly three days and three nights (yes, it is three whole days and three whole nights......so noted many other places in Scripture most notably in Exodus) in the tomb.

Thats about it.

Repentance is for all people and all times. No sign there IMO.

 

[Cameron143]

Good one but I think Matthew 12:34 has nothing to do with faith. It’s about the fruit. It’s man's nature to talk things against the will of God. God would certainly not enable him for he was nothing yet. The Holy Spirit and the gospel work rather to convict and declare God’s offer of salvation thus man needs to repent and receive God’s plan of salvation. “Whosoever” which sets the condition in the salvation plan and offer means to either receive or reject, believe or will not believe. I don’t think salvation is an achievement that it requires something. The Holy Spirit and the word of God are indeed instruments but only to pronounce someone guilty and the other to provide a way of salvation yet they cannot force anyone. But what remains is that the “…gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth…” Romans 1:16 yet not everyone presented with the gospel believes and that would make a person’s choice.

Alteration or change of the natural man is already the product and is not the cause. Hence, salvation is by grace through faith.

So the natural man is at enmity with God, does not seek Him, is contrary to Him, is dead in sin, is not good, does evil continually, doesn't want to retain God in his thoughts, suddenly, of own volition says to himself...let's try this God thing?
Ok, let's run with that.

 

[HeIsHere]

So the natural man is at enmity with God, does not seek Him, is contrary to Him, is dead in sin, is not good, does evil continually, doesn't want to retain God in his thoughts, suddenly, of own volition says to himself...let's try this God thing?
Ok, let's run with that.

Out of context verses.
Also once again presuppositions in place that hearing the Gospel message is ineffective and requires more.

 

[Cameron143]

Out of context verses.
Also once again presuppositions in place that hearing the Gospel message is ineffective and requires more.

Again, all those verses describe the natural man. Every natural man. You, and many here, deny the estate of the natural man. It is little wonder you believe he saves himself.

 

[cv5]

Out of context verses.
Also once again presuppositions in place that hearing the Gospel message is ineffective and requires more.

Cameron is a one hit wonder........ "natural man is at enmity with God".
Thats all he's got.

Question: do you see him posting profuse Scriptural supporting passages to undergird his opinions?

Neither do I. Because you see, if you think that it does not matter anyways, and you really don't believe it either, you don't need any.

 

[HeIsHere]

Again, all those verses describe the natural man. Every natural man. You, and many here, deny the estate of the natural man. It is little wonder you believe he saves himself.

Save himself?
Can you find me a post where I explicitly stated a person "saves" themselves.
Cool your jets there Mr. Cameron because I do not think I stated here.

 

[cv5]

Again, all those verses describe the natural man. Every natural man. You, and many here, deny the estate of the natural man. It is little wonder you believe he saves himself.

That all you got man? Because that is not enough.

You should be able to present a case from Genesis to Revelation (which I have done to support my position BTW) to support your assertions. But......nothing yet.

 

[cv5]

Save himself?
Can you find me a post where I explicitly stated a person "saves" themselves.
Cool your jets there Mr. Cameron because I do not think I stated here.

Not once did you or I make such a claim. Why?

Because it is obviously unbiblical, false, and a lie.

 

[HeIsHere]

Cameron is a one hit wonder........ "natural man is at enmity with God".
Thats all he's got.

Question: do you see him posting profuse Scriptural supporting passages to undergird his opinions?

Neither do I. Because you see, if you think that it does not matter anyways, and you really don't believe it either, you don't need any.

None of us are arguing we save ourselves that would mean Jesus never came and accomplished what He did.

I would really would not care to debate this anymore, except to the fact of people's testimonies of how harmful this doctrine was to them.

 

[HeIsHere]

Not once did you or I make such a claim. Why?

Because it is obviously unbiblical, false, and a lie.

Agree, thank you.

 

[Cameron143]

Save himself?
Can you find me a post where I explicitly stated a person "saves" themselves.
Cool your jets there Mr. Cameron because I do not think I stated here.

I agree you didn't. I posted that way purposely. The way you just felt is exactly how others feel when you and others make remarks in the same fashion, only on the other side. I hold no hope that certain others will become more sensitive in the use of words, but perhaps you will.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, perhaps you will consider the phrase...kidnapping by God as a part of salvation. You didn't initiate it, but you did say you would remember it.
Also, you well know there are verses that correspond to everything I have shared. Every one of them refers to the estate of natural man. And none were taken out of context. You disagree with them for the very reason you accuse me of...your assumptions.

 

[HeIsHere]

I agree you didn't. I posted that way purposely. The way you just felt is exactly how others feel when you and others make remarks in the same fashion, only on the other side. I hold no hope that certain others will become more sensitive in the use of words, but perhaps you will.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, perhaps you will consider the phrase...kidnapping by God as a part of salvation. You didn't initiate it, but you did say you would remember it.
Also, you well know there are verses that correspond to everything I have shared. Every one of them refers to the estate of natural man. And none were taken out of context. You disagree with them for the very reason you accuse me of...your assumptions.

I guess I am just used to cv5' style of rhetoric.

Yes I will remember it, "kidnap" as a concept I see the truth in it as a "descriptor" as to how you assert God changes the heart first.
There are verses but they need to be understood in context of the culture, the language and the audience which I know you know.

And colloquialisms and idioms are very challenging to understand in a different language/culture and some of this doctrine uses those as proof texts so in that sense yes they are out of context.

They are out of context for many of us who are not trained "Classicists" but we do the best we can.

I am not really that emotionally invested in CC, I regard no one as ally so no worries I have no feelings on the matter and people can say what they want about me.

We agree on eschatology but sorry on this doctrine I draw a hard line.

 

[Magenta]

and yet that is exactly what Jesus said ... "go quickly to the highways and hedges whoever ye find there good or bad and COMPEL them to come"

The Truth is compelling... where can one go after having one's eyes opened by God Himself?

Circumcised hearts and ears are then able to accept the gospel message, and God's Word does not return void .

 

[Cameron143]

I guess I am just used to cv5' style of rhetoric.

Yes I will remember it, "kidnap" as a concept I see the truth in it as a "descriptor" as to how you assert God changes the heart first.
There are verses but they need to be understood in context of the culture, the language and the audience which I know you know.

And colloquialisms and idioms are very challenging to understand in a different language/culture and some of this doctrine uses those as proof texts so in that sense yes they are out of context.

They are out of context for many of us who are not trained "Classicists" but we do the best we can.

I am not really that emotionally invested in CC, I regard no one as ally so no worries I have no feelings on the matter and people can say what they want about me.

We agree on eschatology but sorry on this doctrine I draw a hard line.

Hard lines get tripped over all the time. Give yourself some slack.

 

[Magenta]

I guess I am just used to cv5' style of rhetoric.

Yes I will remember it, "kidnap" as a concept I see the truth in it as a "descriptor" as to how you assert God changes the heart first.
There are verses but they need to be understood in context of the culture, the language and the audience which I know you know.

And colloquialisms and idioms are very challenging to understand in a different language/culture
and some of this doctrine uses those as proof texts so in that sense yes they are out of context.

They are out of context for many of us who are not trained "Classicists" but we do the best we can.

I am not really that emotionally invested in CC, I regard no one as ally so no worries
I have no feelings on the matter and people can say what they want about me.

We agree on eschatology but sorry on this doctrine I draw a hard line.

You are very much invested. So much denial from you...

That's why you praise those who agree with you and castigate those that don't.

You love pointing out how others are wrong but when you are wrong you cannot handle being shown how.

The verses that speak of the condition of fallen man do not need to be understood in terms of context of the culture, the language, the audience. Every single person born into this world has been born under the same conditions brought about by Adam's sin. But you, and others like you, believe you, of your own non-existent free will, was able to overcome that condition all on your own with no help from God at all.

 

[Magenta]

So the natural man is at enmity with God, does not seek Him, is contrary
to Him, is dead in sin, is not good, does evil continually, doesn't want to retain
God in his thoughts, suddenly, of own volition says to himself...let's try this God thing?
Ok, let's run with that.

Hostile in their minds toward Him as the Scriptures say, yes, they believe from that condition of rejecting the
things of God they are able to choose to believe that the message they consider to be foolishness is wise.
With no help from God at all. It appears they think very highly of themselves LOL

 

[Mem]

Hard lines get tripped over all the time. Give yourself some slack.

It seems that you've adopted hard lines also, that man is all bad, wherein I see the reality is that all man's 'badness' has corrupted any goodness he does have. Why did God see fit to spare Noah and the seven?

 

[Magenta]

Out of context verses.
Also once again presuppositions in place that hearing the Gospel message is ineffective and requires more.

Uncircumcised ears... what do they hear? Foolishness.

Foolishness is what uncircumcised ears hear when the gospel is preached.

Go read your Bible .

 

[Cameron143]

It seems that you've adopted hard lines also, that man is all bad, wherein I see the reality is that all man's 'badness' has corrupted any goodness he does have. Why did God see fit to spare Noah and the seven?

Part of the problem with going in and out of threads is things that have already been explained go undiscovered. I never said that man being bad doesn't mean he can't do good things. Jesus said so himself...you being evil give good gifts to your sons. He still calls them evil. Why? It's not because of their actions. It's because of their hearts. Their motives for their actions isn't to please God. Their hearts are contrary to God. They do so for themselves. And God calls this evil. Their hearts are evil continually because they live to serve themselves.
So the "badness" is not in their actions, but in their motivations...their hearts. This is why a work in the heart is necessary.
I have no hard lines. Truth is truth and is spiritually discerned.

 

[Mem]

Part of the problem with going in and out of threads is things that have already been explained go undiscovered. I never said that man being bad doesn't mean he can't do good things. Jesus said so himself...you being evil give good gifts to your sons. He still calls them evil. Why? It's not because of their actions. It's because of their hearts. Their motives for their actions isn't to please God. Their hearts are contrary to God. They do so for themselves. And God calls this evil. Their hearts are evil continually because they live to serve themselves.
So the "badness" is not in their actions, but in their motivations...their hearts. This is why a work in the heart is necessary.
I have no hard lines. Truth is truth and is spiritually discerned.

You've only managed to explain man's evil, not his inability to do any good, which you've supposed to be the case in truth.