Minimising our Axioms.

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throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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#41
This repetition of your original assertions leads me to think that you don't really want to discuss this topic, but merely to have your (non-axiomatic) "axioms" affirmed by others.
I added ' as a believer ' because thats what I meant from the start .
 

Dino246

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Jun 30, 2015
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#43
The thread is not about , how unbelievers should approach the bible .
Fair enough; my approach encompasses unbelievers.

Given your third assertion, "God cannot lie", what do you do with 1 Kings 22:19-23?
 

phil36

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#44
As a believer
1 The Bible Comes from God.

2. The Bible is true.

3 God cannot lie .


Can you prove those three points without a doubt ;)? Just pretend I'm an unbeliever and don't know the answers, how does a believer know?.
 

throughfaith

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#45
Fair enough; my approach encompasses unbelievers.

Given your third assertion, "God cannot lie", what do you do with 1 Kings 22:19-23?
Titus 1:2

“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”
Clear interprets the unclear .
 

throughfaith

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#46
Can you prove those three points without a doubt ;)? Just pretend I'm an unbeliever and don't know the answers, how does a believer know?.
This thread is not about proving anything to unbelievers. Its OUR starting point. Reducing the amount of starting points , the things that influence our observations .
 

Dino246

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#47
Titus 1:2

“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;”
Clear interprets the unclear .
I agree with the principle, but you haven't answered my question. ;)
 

phil36

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#48
This thread is not about proving anything to unbelievers. Its OUR starting point. Reducing the amount of starting points , the things that influence our observations .

That's why I said pretend. It's certainly a christian's starting point. but if you have know proof, it's an axiom? your starting point itself is an axiom. So as a believers do we have proof that:

1 The Bible Comes from God.

2. The Bible is true.

3 God cannot lie .


Would maybe a text from Jesus himself help us here? Do we know the truth of scripture because we 'hear the words of Jesus' ?

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.


Do you get my point now?
 

KelbyofGod

Senior Member
Oct 8, 2017
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#49
Fair enough; my approach encompasses unbelievers.

Given your third assertion, "God cannot lie", what do you do with 1 Kings 22:19-23?
I was hoping you were referencing that particular story! (BTW, I agree with your explanation and use of axioms, and appreciate your efforts to make it clear).

After having prayed about that story, I'll present the conclusions as best I can.
  1. God did not lie to the king.
  2. God found a spirit that WAS willing to lie, and sent that spirit to do what it already wanted to do. (God knowing it would help bring about the destruction that Ahab was slated for)
  3. It was as if God had mailed an envelope to Ahab with a clipping from a lying newspaper. God sent the clip for Ahab's review, but didn't order Ahab to believe it. (nor did God create the lie within the clipping)
  4. If Ahab would have sought the Lord diligently about it, God would have told him the truth about the message coming through the prophets. (And indeed He DID tell Ahab)
  5. But God also knew that given the choice between truth that would save his life, and a lie that was what he wanted to hear, Ahab would choose the lie.
Just wanted to share that regarding 1 Kings 22:19-23

Love in Jesus,
Kelby
 

throughfaith

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#50
That's why I said pretend. It's certainly a christian's starting point. but if you have know proof, it's an axiom? your starting point itself is an axiom. So as a believers do we have proof that:

1 The Bible Comes from God.

2. The Bible is true.

3 God cannot lie .


Would maybe a text from Jesus himself help us here? Do we know the truth of scripture because we 'hear the words of Jesus' ?

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.


Do you get my point now?
I would say you forgot to apply the approach mentioned . We start with as blank a slate as possible. The longer we've been exposed to ' teaching , sermons, christian websites , doctrines , isms ect the more we can pick up the wrong things and the wrong presuppositions ect . So being aware of this as we go is key . Minimising the criteria as I have explained with the who ,what when why ,what observations. Now let's look at that verse you mentioned.
25¶Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30I and my Father are one.

31¶Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33¶The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
Like i said its better to be in discovery mode not looking for proof texts to support our assumptions. We start ,as believers with the assumption ( as minimal as possible ) . Many start with already learned ' stuff 'and go looking for verses to support it . Thats a bad approach and your not in discovery mode like this . Its allowing the scriptures to say what they mean in the right context.
If we apply the who is Jesus speaking to ?
when is he speaking to them?
why is he speaking to them ?
what is he speaking to them about
we may see what he's saying in the right context . So these verses are no longer just proof text s to support an already assumed doctrine .
 

throughfaith

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#51
The Lords Prayer.
Minimising our assumptions ( baggage ) before we arrive at the text .

1¶And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2¶And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3Give us day by day our daily bread.
4And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Who ,what ,what, when ,why ?
And any other observations questions similar to this . Authors intent, The audience, central theme of the book / chapter ect
Who is Jesus speaking to ?
What is he speaking about ?
When is this ? Is this under the law ? Is it before the cross, ect .
Why is he telling them these things ?
Ect .
 

throughfaith

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#52
Fair enough; my approach encompasses unbelievers.

Given your third assertion, "God cannot lie", what do you do with 1 Kings 22:19-23?
Although I do think the average atheist understands the gospel better than calvinists.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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#53
That's where we disagree. I don't think the three statements you provided are, in fact, axioms.

If you use as an axiom something which can be derived through the process, you are engaging in circular reasoning. Further, the point of an axiom is that it cannot be derived, but rather must stand on its own, independently of the process of discovery.

Case in point: in mathematics, you cannot prove that 1 = 1. You must simply accept it as a fundamental truth. I'm sure @posthuman can give you many examples, and better explanations, of mathematical axioms; I'm working on little-used information from over 30 years ago.
an axiom is briefly, something unproven that is accepted as unquestionably true. like in Euclidean geometry, the assumption of fact that you can connect any two dots with a line. it can be proven that no logical/truth system of any significant complexity can exist without the presence of axiom.

the Bible does teach that God is good, that God does not lie. it also teaches that God Himself is the author of it. so as Dino said, those precepts can be derived from axiomatically holding that 'the Bible is true'
in that sense i agree that 'the Bible is true' is a simpler set of axioms than 'the Bible is from God' and 'God does not lie'
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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#55
I propose just one axiom: The bible is not a work of fiction.
How about The Bible is Divine Revelation?

But for theological liberals, even this is not an axiom.
'The Bible Isn't the Word of God': Nashville Church Comes under Fire for Denying the Bible Is God's Word

Instead, the church argued, the Bible is "a product of community, a library of texts, multi-vocal, a human response to God, living and dynamic."
'The Bible Isn't the Word of God': Nashville Church Comes ...
 

throughfaith

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#56
an axiom is briefly, something unproven that is accepted as unquestionably true. like in Euclidean geometry, the assumption of fact that you can connect any two dots with a line. it can be proven that no logical/truth system of any significant complexity can exist without the presence of axiom.

the Bible does teach that God is good, that God does not lie. it also teaches that God Himself is the author of it. so as Dino said, those precepts can be derived from axiomatically holding that 'the Bible is true'
in that sense i agree that 'the Bible is true' is a simpler set of axioms than 'the Bible is from God' and 'God does not lie'
How do you know the bible is true ? True about what and from whom ? What if God cannot be trusted ?
 

posthuman

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#58
'the God of Israel is truly God' is another single-axiom framework that gives you all other theology. the God of Israel is the God of the Tankh, and Christ was proven by it, which gives us the whole scripture 'proven true' from that one thing taken on faith, if we follow that faith through. the God of Israel declares Himself to be the only true God, and to be True, and Jesus proved Himself to be the God of Israel manifest in the flesh. :geek:
 

posthuman

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#59
How do you know the bible is true ? True about what and from whom ? What if God cannot be trusted ?
the whole concept of 'axiom/postulate' is that something is assumed to be true, on faith, and all the rest falls into place because of that one faith. what i was saying is that if we assume the Bible is true, we can arrive at 'God does not lie' and 'God gave the scripture' because both of those things are either explicit or implicit in the Bible.
it's equally true that if we start with 'God gave the Bible' and 'God does not lie' as axioms, then we get 'the Bible is true' from that.
 

posthuman

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#60
'the God of Israel is truly God' is another single-axiom framework that gives you all other theology. the God of Israel is the God of the Tankh, and Christ was proven by it, which gives us the whole scripture 'proven true' from that one thing taken on faith, if we follow that faith through. the God of Israel declares Himself to be the only true God, and to be True, and Jesus proved Himself to be the God of Israel manifest in the flesh. :geek:
did i make a mistake here?
can we get 'God does not lie' from assuming God is God?

is it possible for God to be God and to be a liar, or does a god being untrue contradict deity?

what do i have to assume in order to come to a conclusion about that :unsure: