Misconceptions
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The 12th one is not Paul but Matthias who was chosen to replace Judas.
These are indeed the foundation apostles because they were eye witnesses of Christ from the time of His appearance in public to His death and resurrection. Paul was not an eye witness. He himself acknowledges that.
However Stephen proves to you that miracles were not exclusive to these apostles. Phillip the evangelist [not the apostle] did mighty signs and prophesied as did his 4 daughters.
These are indeed the foundation apostles because they were eye witnesses of Christ from the time of His appearance in public to His death and resurrection. Paul was not an eye witness. He himself acknowledges that.
However Stephen proves to you that miracles were not exclusive to these apostles. Phillip the evangelist [not the apostle] did mighty signs and prophesied as did his 4 daughters.
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Nehemiah,
You said: "Once the apostles passed on, those spiritual gifts ceased (including that of apostles and prophets). Again check out Church history." and "The signs, wonders and miracles were the gifts given to the apostles to authenticate the Gospel. See Hebrews 2 and other passages. They are called "the signs of an apostle" by Paul."
However we have Paul speaking to the church in Corinth regarding spiritual gifts given to believers as well. My belief of the cessation of gifts is unfortunately because the church taught they had stopped, people stopped believing in them and praying for them--miracles cannot happen without belief and faith in those miracles.
Scripture says "the same power that rose Jesus from the grave lives in us." I have never witnessed miracles or speaking in tongues (other than gibberish--people speaking all at once--nothing like the bible says, which is clearly a KNOWN language that must be interpreted--"Let 2 or at the most 3 speak and another interpret). I believe if the Holy Spirit resides in the believer then miracles, tongues, prophecy can still happen--unfortunately, there are people that are puffed up and brag about these things, especially in the Pentecostal churches and /or make them up, think televangelist that true believers think is nonsense.
!st Corinthians 12: 1-11
Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
You said: "Once the apostles passed on, those spiritual gifts ceased (including that of apostles and prophets). Again check out Church history." and "The signs, wonders and miracles were the gifts given to the apostles to authenticate the Gospel. See Hebrews 2 and other passages. They are called "the signs of an apostle" by Paul."
However we have Paul speaking to the church in Corinth regarding spiritual gifts given to believers as well. My belief of the cessation of gifts is unfortunately because the church taught they had stopped, people stopped believing in them and praying for them--miracles cannot happen without belief and faith in those miracles.
Scripture says "the same power that rose Jesus from the grave lives in us." I have never witnessed miracles or speaking in tongues (other than gibberish--people speaking all at once--nothing like the bible says, which is clearly a KNOWN language that must be interpreted--"Let 2 or at the most 3 speak and another interpret). I believe if the Holy Spirit resides in the believer then miracles, tongues, prophecy can still happen--unfortunately, there are people that are puffed up and brag about these things, especially in the Pentecostal churches and /or make them up, think televangelist that true believers think is nonsense.
!st Corinthians 12: 1-11
Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed. 2 You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
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Yes, that is what my post says--Matthias was the 12th apostle who replaced Judas, not Paul, though Paul also is an apostle (just not one of the 12) since he was an eyewitness to the risen Lord and sent out by Him. I think maybe you meant to respond to someone else?
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Hi, Laura
This is the way I understand it: Gifts are awesome, but grace is even more awesome! We are to desire spiritual gifts, such as the gifts of knowledge, preaching and prayer, but above all, we must get grace; that is, love—for love of God, love of your fellow-man and love of God's Church—this is "a more excellent way.”
This is the way I understand it: Gifts are awesome, but grace is even more awesome! We are to desire spiritual gifts, such as the gifts of knowledge, preaching and prayer, but above all, we must get grace; that is, love—for love of God, love of your fellow-man and love of God's Church—this is "a more excellent way.”
Hi, Laura
This is the way I understand it: Gifts are awesome, but grace is even more awesome! We are to desire spiritual gifts, such as the gifts of knowledge, preaching and prayer, but above all, we must get grace; that is, love—for love of God, love of your fellow-man and love of God's Church—this is "a more excellent way.”
This is the way I understand it: Gifts are awesome, but grace is even more awesome! We are to desire spiritual gifts, such as the gifts of knowledge, preaching and prayer, but above all, we must get grace; that is, love—for love of God, love of your fellow-man and love of God's Church—this is "a more excellent way.”
Also grace is defined as 'God's divine favor'--this is something bestowed upon us by God--we do not extend this grace. Love for God and our fellow man and the church as you say are what God requires of us, but it is different than the grace that He gives us.
As Evmur noted our Western Churches for the most part are dead. And I believe it is because we do not believe in the power of the Holy Spirit--scripture teaches us we must believe--if we don't believe and don't pray for the gifts then of course they cannot manifest.
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I'm not endorsing Lee Strobel, but if you don't have a closed canon you have anarchy.
"And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, until we all arrive to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we may no longer be infants, being tossed as by waves, and being carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in regard to deceitful scheming, but speaking the truth in love, we may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ;"—Ephesian 4:11-15
"And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, until we all arrive to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we may no longer be infants, being tossed as by waves, and being carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in regard to deceitful scheming, but speaking the truth in love, we may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ;"—Ephesian 4:11-15
Here are the 25 Apostles mentioned in the New Testament--note again that Christ had sent out 70--all apostles, just not part of the 12, who represented the 12 tribes of Israel.
How Many Apostles?
Let’s start counting. Yes, there were the twelve chosen by Jesus. Eleven are named in Acts 1:13, “Peter and John, and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. “ Judas Iscariot, one of the original twelve, the one who betrayed Jesus, is not named in that list. That’s the original twelve. Then add Matthias who replaced Judas Iscariot to become one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (Acts 1:26). “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Revelation 21:14). When we include both Judas and Matthias the total is now thirteen.
We know additional apostles besides these men exist because Christ, after His ascension, appointed “some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers . . . until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:11-13). Are we there yet? Have we all attained to the unity of the faith? Or mature manhood? Or the fullness of Christ? Clearly, the apostolic ministry will continue until Christ returns!
An investigation of the Scripture reveals several individuals in addition to the original twelve who are explicitly referred to as apostles. We might call them “apostles of the throne“, “apostles of the Lamb” or “ascension-gift apostles.” A complete listing of New Testament apostles follows.
James, the half brother of Jesus and leader of the Jerusalem church—Galatians 1:19
Barnabas–Acts 14:14
Paul–Acts 14:14 and many other references
Apollos– Corinthians 4:6-9
Timothy and Silvanus– I Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6
Epaphroditus–Philippians 2:25. While the King James Version translates the word as “messenger”, the Greek word (apostolon) is actually “apostle”.
Two unnamed apostles–Second Corinthians 8:23. A brother of fame among the churches, and a brother tested–“As for our brethren, they are messengers of the churches, a glory to Christ.” Again, the Greek word is “apostoloi” but is translated here as “messengers”.
These nine now make a total of 22 (13 + 9 = 22).
Andronicus and Junia–Romans 16:7 “Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” If we count Andronicus and Junia, the total jumps to 24.
How Many Apostles?
Finally, Hebrews 3:1 designates Jesus Christ the “Apostle and High Priest of our profession.” That makes 25 apostles in the New Testament!
https://bmarkanderson.com/how-many-apostles-in-the-new-testament-12-or-25/
How Many Apostles?
Let’s start counting. Yes, there were the twelve chosen by Jesus. Eleven are named in Acts 1:13, “Peter and John, and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. “ Judas Iscariot, one of the original twelve, the one who betrayed Jesus, is not named in that list. That’s the original twelve. Then add Matthias who replaced Judas Iscariot to become one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb (Acts 1:26). “And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb” (Revelation 21:14). When we include both Judas and Matthias the total is now thirteen.
We know additional apostles besides these men exist because Christ, after His ascension, appointed “some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers . . . until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:11-13). Are we there yet? Have we all attained to the unity of the faith? Or mature manhood? Or the fullness of Christ? Clearly, the apostolic ministry will continue until Christ returns!
An investigation of the Scripture reveals several individuals in addition to the original twelve who are explicitly referred to as apostles. We might call them “apostles of the throne“, “apostles of the Lamb” or “ascension-gift apostles.” A complete listing of New Testament apostles follows.
James, the half brother of Jesus and leader of the Jerusalem church—Galatians 1:19
Barnabas–Acts 14:14
Paul–Acts 14:14 and many other references
Apollos– Corinthians 4:6-9
Timothy and Silvanus– I Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6
Epaphroditus–Philippians 2:25. While the King James Version translates the word as “messenger”, the Greek word (apostolon) is actually “apostle”.
Two unnamed apostles–Second Corinthians 8:23. A brother of fame among the churches, and a brother tested–“As for our brethren, they are messengers of the churches, a glory to Christ.” Again, the Greek word is “apostoloi” but is translated here as “messengers”.
These nine now make a total of 22 (13 + 9 = 22).
Andronicus and Junia–Romans 16:7 “Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.” If we count Andronicus and Junia, the total jumps to 24.
How Many Apostles?
Finally, Hebrews 3:1 designates Jesus Christ the “Apostle and High Priest of our profession.” That makes 25 apostles in the New Testament!
https://bmarkanderson.com/how-many-apostles-in-the-new-testament-12-or-25/
many notable miracles of healing were accredited to the prayers and ministry of George Fox and many remarkable prophecies including the sudden death of Oliver Cromwell at age 57 and the the return of the Stuarts which took the whole nation by surprise.
Bunyan referred to them as Pentecostals
Bunyan referred to them as Pentecostals
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Boy does that quote dismantle the "Jesus Only" argument. Never read it before, so thanks for posting. I have it in mind to go through the ante-Nicene fathers (the first few volumes in their entirety at least) in the future. In general, their theology was usually much stronger than most of what you hear today.
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Greetings Laura, and blessings in Christ.
I'm not positive that being an eyewitness to His resurrection is an absolute requirement. And I think he asks a pertinent question in the following:
We know additional apostles besides these men exist because Christ, after His ascension, appointed “some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers . . . until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:11-13). Are we there yet? Have we all attained to the unity of the faith? Or mature manhood? Or the fullness of Christ? Clearly, the apostolic ministry will continue until Christ returns!
I think the church, i.e. the true Spirit-filled church, is eventually going to arrive at this place one day. I think the end-times will bring severe trials, sufferings and persecutions, and these will help purify the church from the corruptions we see today, and cause her to led into ever-increasing intimacy with the Lord. Through this process, many false doctrines and interpretations that have divided the church and still keep her divided will be burned away, and through the returning ministry of the Holy Spirit Himself through Divine utterance and the prophetic gifts, the church will finally arrive at this place of possessing a true unity of the faith in Christ. As scriptures says, by the time He is returning, the church will have "made herself ready" (Revelation 19:7), and scripture implies elsewhere that this will be when she has become fully purified and "clothed in white." Paul said this was in fact his purpose (and by extension the purpose of the prophets, apostles, teachers, pastors, evangelists etc):
To the Corinthians:
2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. (2 Corinthians 11:2-3)
To the Ephesians:
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
Paul referred to this as a "profound mystery" because the analogy suggested there existed the potential to become completely purified in Him and "one flesh" with Him, if His Spirit so fully embodied us that we manifested His purity and power in every way. This what Paul was desiring in telling the Galatians he wanted to present them to Christ as a "pure virgin." Revelation 19:8 suggests the church will one day finally get there, for the "white garments" she will be clothed in will be the righteousness of the saints:
7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Revelation 19:7-8 NKJV).
I'm not positive that being an eyewitness to His resurrection is an absolute requirement. And I think he asks a pertinent question in the following:
We know additional apostles besides these men exist because Christ, after His ascension, appointed “some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers . . . until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ” (Ephesians 4:11-13). Are we there yet? Have we all attained to the unity of the faith? Or mature manhood? Or the fullness of Christ? Clearly, the apostolic ministry will continue until Christ returns!
I think the church, i.e. the true Spirit-filled church, is eventually going to arrive at this place one day. I think the end-times will bring severe trials, sufferings and persecutions, and these will help purify the church from the corruptions we see today, and cause her to led into ever-increasing intimacy with the Lord. Through this process, many false doctrines and interpretations that have divided the church and still keep her divided will be burned away, and through the returning ministry of the Holy Spirit Himself through Divine utterance and the prophetic gifts, the church will finally arrive at this place of possessing a true unity of the faith in Christ. As scriptures says, by the time He is returning, the church will have "made herself ready" (Revelation 19:7), and scripture implies elsewhere that this will be when she has become fully purified and "clothed in white." Paul said this was in fact his purpose (and by extension the purpose of the prophets, apostles, teachers, pastors, evangelists etc):
To the Corinthians:
2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. (2 Corinthians 11:2-3)
To the Ephesians:
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
Paul referred to this as a "profound mystery" because the analogy suggested there existed the potential to become completely purified in Him and "one flesh" with Him, if His Spirit so fully embodied us that we manifested His purity and power in every way. This what Paul was desiring in telling the Galatians he wanted to present them to Christ as a "pure virgin." Revelation 19:8 suggests the church will one day finally get there, for the "white garments" she will be clothed in will be the righteousness of the saints:
7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Revelation 19:7-8 NKJV).