Misconceptions

[Evmur]

Since I have said no such thing, please listen up:

1. The apostles are limited to just the twelve (Paul included). Their names are in the twelve foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem. Indisputable evidence.

2. There were no apostles after the twelve. Church history confirms this.

3. The signs, wonders and miracles were the gifts given to the apostles to authenticate the Gospel. See Hebrews 2 and other passages. They are called "the signs of an apostle" by Paul.

4. Once the apostles passed on, those spiritual gifts ceased (including that of apostles and prophets). Again check out Church history.

5. Paul prophesied that (a) prophecy, (b) tongues, and (c) knowledge (supernatural) would cease. Once the Bible was complete those gifts ceased. Again check out Church history. John warned in Revelation that nothing more was to be added.

6. If God said that some gifts would cease, why are Christians unwilling to accept that decision? Because they think they are wiser than God.

Paul makes 13

... then Barnabas and Sylvanus are called apostles. But then Paul named apostles alongside prophets and evangelists, pastors and teachers as being the five fold pattern for church ministry.

Paul was apostle if not the greatest then at least the most important one for us gentiles ... but he was not a founding apostle for he was not an eyewitness.

 

[Evmur]

I have seen several absolute miracles! Those who don't see don't believe!

or those who don't believe do not [generally] see

It's a bit rich for folks who decry the gifts to then complain because they have never seen miracles.

 

[Evmur]

Since I have said no such thing, please listen up:

1. The apostles are limited to just the twelve (Paul included). Their names are in the twelve foundations of the wall of the New Jerusalem. Indisputable evidence.

2. There were no apostles after the twelve. Church history confirms this.

3. The signs, wonders and miracles were the gifts given to the apostles to authenticate the Gospel. See Hebrews 2 and other passages. They are called "the signs of an apostle" by Paul.

4. Once the apostles passed on, those spiritual gifts ceased (including that of apostles and prophets). Again check out Church history.

5. Paul prophesied that (a) prophecy, (b) tongues, and (c) knowledge (supernatural) would cease. Once the Bible was complete those gifts ceased. Again check out Church history. John warned in Revelation that nothing more was to be added.

6. If God said that some gifts would cease, why are Christians unwilling to accept that decision? Because they think they are wiser than God.

We will go astray if we judge by church history ... there is no way that the Holy Spirit is going to manifest Himself in the Roman church from the 3rd century on.

The church received great light in the 16th century that transformed the church, again the church advanced in the things of God in the 18th century awakening. And it advance wonderfully since in the Pentecostal awakening.

Nations like Africa and China in utter darkness have been swept, MILLIONS have been saved where before the church was totally unable to penetrate. The Latin countries locked in Roman Catholicism have become evangelical and pentecostal.

While the rebellious western church is becoming ever darker.

 

[wattie]

What source do you have for this?


The question isn't about their veracity being known, however. The question is when was the canon officially closed. Source documentation is therefore needed on this.


In bringing up "the more excellent way," however, he again returns to discussing operating in the gifts, so if you mean by this that the "more excellent way" was to not operate in the gifts any longer, why does he begin Chapter 14 with:

14 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

Seems out of context if he is trying to argue that the gifts will be set aside to then return to discussing them again.

Well.. in regards to the desire spiritual gifts.. that is still to the church at Corinth. But the main thing the chapter 14 is in the mode of.. this is what you do now.. where 13 is a future point beyond that.

In regards to the canon.. my source is from The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel..would need to find the exact ref.

 

[Vindicator]

“And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

That’s Revelation 19.

“And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

That’s Revelation 12.

The spirit of prophesy sets apart believers in the final days. I believe it will be necessary to safely avoid the schemes of the enemy.

I was just discussing with someone how Romans 12 teaches that walking in the gifts is actually a part of what it means to prove what the good and perfect will of God is for believers. We are also to be filled with the Spirit of Love, Joy, Hope, Patience, Mercifulness, Cheerfulness, etc (v.9-13), and never curse others but always bless them, overcoming evil with good (v.14-21). But the first thing he mentions is not being high-minded against others in operating in gifts, for each member of the body should have one, and prophecy (a supernatural gift) is mentioned among them:

1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

In 1 Corinthians 12 are added other supernatural gifts to this list:

8 to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Thus, taken together, walking in supernatural gifts is an important part of how the body of Christ demonstrates to the world the good and perfect will of God. What a shame that most Christians today do not fast and pray for such things to be manifest in their lives anymore. Viewed properly, they are leaving out an important part of what it means to demonstrate God's prefect will for His own.

 

[Vindicator]

Well.. in regards to the desire spiritual gifts.. that is still to the church at Corinth.

We are certainly agreed here. But my argument here is often that many don't realize just what an important role the supernatural gifts played in the spread of the gospel. It is what got the world's attention. It even says of Christ's miracles that, "news spread abroad" of what He had done, as did news of the mighty works done by the apostles in His name, such as healing the blind man in Derbe (or was it Lystra). Anyway, we now try to talk people into believing rather than demonstrate to them the power of God, and I think it is why our witness today is rather weak by comparison.

The tough part, however, is that it is no easy business attaining to the gifts. Many have retorted to me, "Can YOU heal the sick, and raise the dead?", to which I have to confess I have done neither, though I have received numerous healings by believing God myself. But I do speak in tongues and I do sometimes prophesy. I'm hoping that with time I can do a better job of demonstrating what I think it means to be a genuinely Spirit-filled Christian.

In regards to the canon.. my source is from The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel..would need to find the exact ref.

I believe I have that somewhere, but probably couldn't find it. Let me know if you find the quote. I would be interested to know what it says.

 

[CS1]

Well.. in regards to the desire spiritual gifts.. that is still to the church at Corinth. But the main thing the chapter 14 is in the mode of.. this is what you do now.. where 13 is a future point beyond that.

In regards to the canon.. my source is from The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel..would need to find the exact ref.

the gifts of the Holy Spirit were in operation in all churches including Corinth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Paul makes 13

Subtract Judas Iscariot and what do you get?

 

[Vindicator]

Subtract Judas Iscariot and what do you get?

Evmur was right. Paul referred to himself, Timothy and Silas as all being apostles. That makes at least 14.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Evmur was right. Paul referred to himself, Timothy and Silas as all being apostles. That makes at least 14.

Except when you go to Revelation 21:14, and the Holy Spirit through the apostle John corrects all the errors regarding the apostles: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

God wanted to make it crystal clear that there are only twelve apostles (excluding the traitor Judas Iscariot). Therefore when Christ told His apostles that in His future Kingdom those twelve would sit on twelve thrones ruling the twelve tribes of Israel, He already had Paul in mind. And Paul said that he was "separated" or elected to be an apostle from his mother's womb. So now anyone who makes that number 13,14, 15 or whatever, is simply opposing Christ. Those twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem already have those twelve names written therein.

1. Peter
2. Andrew
3. James
4. John
5. Philip
6. Bartholomew
7. Matthew
8. Thomas
9. James the son of Alphaeus
10. Simon Zelotes
11. Judas the brother of James
12. Paul

 

[CS1]

Subtract Judas Iscariot and what do you get?

you for get the two that were selected to replace judas read Acts chapter 1:16, 22-25

16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.




22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

 

[Aaron56]

Evmur was right. Paul referred to himself, Timothy and Silas as all being apostles. That makes at least 14.

And Mathias was numbered among “the twelve”.

There are only 12 Apostles of the Lamb who were witnesses of Jesus’ ministry, death and resurrection and ascension. Other apostles came up but they were not numbered among the 12. Like Barnabas and those you mentioned. Yet, they were still “sent” which is the meaning of “apostle”: sent one.

These things are elementary but many start with the assumption that the apostolic gift is no longer in effect and, thus, are mired in confirmation bias.

 

[wattie]

Just want to say again.. a few here a posting that it's as if the cessationists view is the majority. This just isn't right.

The majority of christendom actively follow all the gifts or dont believe they have passed.

Pentecostal and Charismatic churches far outnumber non-charismatic churches as far as I know.

 

[Vindicator]

Except when you go to Revelation 21:14, and the Holy Spirit through the apostle John corrects all the errors regarding the apostles: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

God wanted to make it crystal clear that there are only twelve apostles (excluding the traitor Judas Iscariot). Therefore when Christ told His apostles that in His future Kingdom those twelve would sit on twelve thrones ruling the twelve tribes of Israel, He already had Paul in mind. And Paul said that he was "separated" or elected to be an apostle from his mother's womb. So now anyone who makes that number 13,14, 15 or whatever, is simply opposing Christ. Those twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem already have those twelve names written therein.

1. Peter
2. Andrew
3. James
4. John
5. Philip
6. Bartholomew
7. Matthew
8. Thomas
9. James the son of Alphaeus
10. Simon Zelotes
11. Judas the brother of James
12. Paul

Yes. Only the twelve were chosen for the foundations of the City. I think you go too far that we are opposing Christ by teaching there were more, though. Both Paul and Luke taught that there were, and certainly we agree that neither of them opposed Christ.

I would clarify regarding my own position that not everyone referring to themself as an "apostle" today actually is one, however. Maybe this is your concern?

Just want to say again.. a few here a posting that it's as if the cessationists view is the majority. This just isn't right.

The majority of christendom actively follow all the gifts or dont believe they have passed.

Pentecostal and Charismatic churches far outnumber non-charismatic churches as far as I know.

Depends on what part of the world, but in Central and South America certainly. Probably also in Africa.

What is the importance of who the majority is, however?

 

[ResidentAlien]

The church received great light in the 16th century that transformed the church, again the church advanced in the things of God in the 18th century awakening. And it advance wonderfully since in the Pentecostal awakening.

To which Pentecostal awakening do you refer? Azusa, Charles Parham's "awakening" before that, Frank Sanford's, the Shakers, the Mormons, Cane Ridge? It seems there were many Pentecostal "awakenings."

There's no comparison between Luther's reformation of the 16th century and the so-called Pentecostal reformation. One is based on scriptural truths; the other on false signs and wonders; and false doctrine.

 

[CS1]

To which Pentecostal awakening do you refer? Azusa, Charles Parham's "awakening" before that, Frank Sanford's, the Shakers, the Mormons, Cane Ridge? It seems there were many Pentecostal "awakenings."

There's no comparison between Luther's reformation of the 16th century and the so-called Pentecostal reformation. One is based on scriptural truths; the other on false signs and wonders; and false doctrine.

ignorant comment. The empowering of the Church happen in Acts Chapter 2 and it was not the seminary that built the church or the canonization of the bible. It was three things and will always be three things that brought a move of God

1. The power of the Holy Spirit
2. Prayer
3. Faith

these three work simultaneously with the Preach of the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus and the Apostles did not have seminaries degrees. The Lord Jesus who is Fully God and Fully man completely relied on the Holy Spirit as a man. As did the Apostles. We are not to be any different. Polycarp was filled with the Spirit.

Ignatius

But the Holy Spirit does not speak His own things, but those of Christ, and that not from himself, but from the Lord; even as the Lord also announced to us the things that He received from the Father. For, says He, “the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father’s, who sent Me.” And says He of the Holy Spirit, “He shall not speak of Himself, but whatsoever things He shall hear from Me.” And He says of Himself to the Father, “I have,” says He, “glorified Thee upon the earth; I have finished the work which, Thou gavest Me; I have manifested Thy name to men.” And of the Holy Ghost, “He shall glorify Me, for He receives of Mine.”

Clement of Alexandria

the Divine Spirit, have the eye of the spirit free, unimpeded, and full of light, by which alone we contemplate the Divine, the Holy Spirit flowing down to us from above.

Tertullian

Origen

as when the Holy Spirit is described as having descended upon Christ, and when the Lord breathed upon His apostles after His resurrection, saying, “Receive the Holy Spirit;” and the saying of the angel to Mary, “The Holy Spirit will come upon thee;” the declaration by Paul, that no one can call Jesus Lord, save by the Holy Spirit. In the Acts of the Apostles, the Holy Spirit was given by the imposition of the apostles’ hands in baptism. From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit. Who, then, is not amazed at the exceeding majesty of the Holy Spirit, when he hears that he who speaks a word against the Son of man may hope for forgiveness; but that he who is guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has not forgiveness, either in the present world or in that which is to come!

there are well-documented moves of the Holy Spirit from Acts to today.

Healing,
prophecy= speaking the gospel
signs & wonders
tongues
working of miracles

All are listed in 1cor chapters 12 through 14. remember the seminaries did not cause revival they were the effects from it.

the reformation was not the cause of a return to the word of God it was the outcome of revival. Many worship the "Reformation"

more than the one who gave it. YOu are no different than pentacostel who have made tongues necessarily for salvation Both are wrong.

 

[Evmur]

To which Pentecostal awakening do you refer? Azusa, Charles Parham's "awakening" before that, Frank Sanford's, the Shakers, the Mormons, Cane Ridge? It seems there were many Pentecostal "awakenings."

There's no comparison between Luther's reformation of the 16th century and the so-called Pentecostal reformation. One is based on scriptural truths; the other on false signs and wonders; and false doctrine.

Pardon me? are you comparing the work of the Holy Spirit to Mormonism? There were signs and wonders in the 17th century, you are being cranky if you'll pardon me for saying.

 

[CS1]

Pardon me? are you comparing the work of the Holy Spirit to Mormonism? There were signs and wonders in the 17th century, you are being cranky if you'll pardon me for saying.

yes he did

 

[Evmur]

Subtract Judas Iscariot and what do you get?

add Mathias and what do you get?

 

[Laura798]

Except when you go to Revelation 21:14, and the Holy Spirit through the apostle John corrects all the errors regarding the apostles: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

God wanted to make it crystal clear that there are only twelve apostles (excluding the traitor Judas Iscariot). Therefore when Christ told His apostles that in His future Kingdom those twelve would sit on twelve thrones ruling the twelve tribes of Israel, He already had Paul in mind. And Paul said that he was "separated" or elected to be an apostle from his mother's womb. So now anyone who makes that number 13,14, 15 or whatever, is simply opposing Christ. Those twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem already have those twelve names written therein.

1. Peter
2. Andrew
3. James
4. John
5. Philip
6. Bartholomew
7. Matthew
8. Thomas
9. James the son of Alphaeus
10. Simon Zelotes
11. Judas the brother of James
12. Paul

There are at least 25 apostles mentioned in the New Testament. Christ sent out the 70 in Luke 10 (some translations say 72)? Note that Paul was not one of the 12, Matthias was.

"Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles."--Acts 1:26