misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

fordman · Jan 14, 2016

(If I may interject epostle.)

Now if you were to ask me this same request, I'd have to respond with......Sorry, asking me to do this, would be asking me to agree with your unbiblical belief in Sola Scriptura. (bible alone)
　

However.... (if I may interject once again epostle)

1 Tim 2:5 reads as follows: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus…" Many think that the practice of praying to the saints goes against the Bible, claiming that Catholics are making them mediators between God and man and thus diminishing Jesus‘ role as the sole mediator.But this is not an appropriate interpretation of the passage. Let‘s see why not…In the O.T. we see that Moses, Abraham, and Job interceded on behalf of others… that’s mediating between God and man. We know that it is okay to ask others here on earth to pray and intercede for us…. that’s mediating between God and man. So we have a situation here where a passage of the Bible is being misinterpreted and misunderstood.

There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ, but as members of the Body of Christ, He allows us to share in His mediation.

Also, Scripture tells us that we have only one foundation, Jesus Christ (1 Cor 3:11); but, Scripture tells us that there is more than one foundation (Eph 2:19-20). Scripture tells us that we have only Lord, Jesus Christ (Eph 4:4-5); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one lord (Rev 19:16). Scripture tells us that we have only one Judge, Jesus Christ (James 4:12); but, Scripture tells us there is more than one judge (1 Cor 6:2).

These are not contradictions in Scripture, not when these passages are all properly understood in context. Jesus is the only foundation; Jesus is the only Lord; and Jesus is the only Judge. But, we are members of Jesus‘ Body. Therefore, we are able, according to the graces given by Christ, to share in Jesus‘ role as foundation, as lord, and as judge, and in other aspects of Christ, as well. Another example, a father shares in God‘s role as Father, by His grace. And, so also, we, and the saints in Heaven, and the angels in Heaven, can share in Christ‘s role as Mediator.
　

If Protestants were truly the literal followers of Scripture that they claim to be, then one should never encounter a Protestant who still has both eyes in his head. But, of course, we do. Therefore, even those who reject the Catholic teaching that the true Christian faith rests upon a twin base of both Scripture and Tradition — claiming, instead, adherence to the old"reformer’s"battle-cry of sola scriptura (the Bible alone) — must employ some standard of Scriptural"interpretation"which complements the written word.-- Catholicscomehome.com
　

Now...... I challenge you PaulMack.......( Vdp, or anyone for that matter) to show us the Book, Chapter and verse where God says that Scripture/The Bible alone, (Sola Scriptura) is sufficient as a sole rule of faith?
　
　

Pax Christi

fordman · Jan 14, 2016

Vdp said:

You need to put down the pipe!

Again, from Fr. Joe Jenkins:

"Returning to the subject of the Bible, it is my supposition that if properly studied with care to the sources and the literary forms of the text, it will affirm the Catholic faith. Such openness to the truth of the Scriptures has led many of the more astute Protestants into the Catholic Church. However, the more emotional, embittered, and ignorant the researcher– the less affected they are by such truths or the claims of the Catholic Church. The message of our loving God to such critics would be to put aside their prejudice and hatred and taste and see the goodness of the Lord in the Catholic community."

Pax Christi

Loco · Jan 14, 2016

Epostle, I am a simple stupid man. I am constitutionally unable to argue multiple points at a time, I generally max out at 3.

If you wish a dialogue with me, please choose one point for us and I'll try to respond.

I am also at times too busy to respond. As Utah suggested, I did not quit my day job, which has a tendency to get busy in waves.

Pax Cristi, nolo contender, curio Domini

MikeHenderson · Jan 14, 2016

Here is a verse for Scriptures only fordman.

1 John 2:26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP] I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.

The anointing is the Holy Spirit given to us by God. Its the Holy Spirit in us and with us that teaches us what the Scriptures say. If you notice nowhere in this verse is the Catholic Church mentioned as the anointing. Its the Holy Spirit that uses the Scriptures to show us True Christians the Truth. To teach there are other Truth in the World outside of the Holy Spirit proves that person does not have the anointing of the Holy Spirit.

You can claim all you want fordman that there are Truths outside of God, but all this does is prove you do not walk in the Spirit with God. You have no Indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is why you turn away from the Scriptures to peruse what the Catholic Church teaches instead.

We receive the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit the minute we receive our Salvation. Therefore since you do not have the Holy Spirit you have not accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior and are not a Child of God.

This is why you believe that God does not have all the Truth. This is why you believe and deceive people into accepting lies from the Catholic Church.

Will you ever accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior fordman? Its very easy. All you have to do is repent of your sins and ask Jesus into your Heart as your Lord and Savior!

Do this fordman and you will receive your Salvation and the anointing of the Holy Spirit!

MikeHenderson · Jan 14, 2016

Here is a Truth from the Scriptures that the Catholic Faith rejects fordman.

1 Timothy 2:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Mary is not our Mediator fordman. No matter how much you study the Scriptures in any form you will never find in the Scriptures where God says Mary is our Mediator fordman.

Here is another Truth in the Scriptures the Catholic Faith rejects fordmam.

Romans 3:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;

Romans 3:23
[SUP]23 [/SUP] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Romans 5:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Mary was born a sinner fordman. For all have sinned applies also to Mary. No matter how much you study the Scriptures in any form you will never find in the Scriptures where God says Mary was without sin fordman.

Only by rejecting the Scriptures can one walk in the Catholic Faith. Only by listening to the lies of the Catholicism can one walk in the Catholic Faith.

I do know for a fact fordman if you studied the Scriptures with the anointing of the Holy Spirit you would reject the Catholic Faith.

Lynn68 · Jan 14, 2016

I just had a conversation about this yesterday. A lady was telling me she asks Mary for help. I told her about the 1 Timothy 2:5 verse, and said that nowhere in the bible does it say that we should ask Mary for help. I'm praying that she opens up to reading the bible.

valiant · Jan 14, 2016

Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica in that they received the word with all readiness of mind examining the scriptures daily whether these things were so (Acts 17.11).

Note: NOT the Scripture plus tradition,

valiant · Jan 14, 2016

fordman said:

but if you include tradition, WHICH TRADITION. Jesus said 'you make the word of God void through your tradition
　

.

Another LIE, Intercession is not mediation, it is merely asking God on behalf of another. A mediator gets between men and God because He is superior to MAN. Your whole system is based on such half truths, which are lies

we do not share his mediation. He alone is the Mediator between God and man. We merely add weight on man's side,

notuptome · Jan 14, 2016

epostle said:

It is staring you right in the face.

John 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 ¶ And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 17:17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Show me where Jesus placed tradition or magisterium. Any verses?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · Jan 14, 2016

epostle said:

Has the Vatican approved that picture of the pope?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

fordman · Jan 14, 2016

MikeHenderson said:

[/SUP]
[SUP]

*But where in these bible passages does it say that the bible alone (Sola Scriptura) is all one needs for a sole rule of faith?
[/SUP][SUP]
[/SUP][SUP]501b2eea50583e663c6ac1b4adc6ac3a.jpg[/SUP][SUP][/SUP]
[SUP]　

As far as the rest of your post..... nothing more than your personal opinions, with nothing to back it up.
　

Something else I'd like to ask you M.H. Do you believe that the bible recorded everything Jesus did and said?
　

from Fr. Joe Jenkins:

"Returning to the subject of the Bible, it is my supposition that if properly studied with care to the sources and the literary forms of the text, it will affirm the Catholic faith. Such openness to the truth of the Scriptures has led many of the more astute Protestants into the Catholic Church. However, the more emotional, embittered, and ignorant the researcher– the less affected they are by such truths or the claims of the Catholic Church. The message of our loving God to such critics would be to put aside their prejudice and hatred and taste and see the goodness of the Lord in the Catholic community."
　
　

Pax Christi

[/SUP]

fordman · Jan 14, 2016

notuptome said:

You may think/wish it does....... but.....

Nowhere in these verses notuptome does it say that the Bible alone (Sola Scriptura) is all one needs for a sole rule of faith.

But by all means......Keep trying.

Not that I concur to your unbiblical belief in Sola Scriptura, but 1 Cor.11:2; Thess. 2:15 and 3:16 all give explicit instructions to follow Traditions which were passed on. These are clearly 'oral' Traditions as well as those in letters or other Scriptures. The Bible tells us to follow the apostolic Traditions which are handed on from Jesus Christ. These Traditions are part of revelation – and many of them made their way into Sacred Scripture, as is said in Lk.1:1-4.

If the Bible were totally sufficient then all the information regarding Christianity should be in the Bible. But we do not find this information anywhere in the Bible – there is only one logical conclusion – the Bible alone (Sola Scriptura) is not sufficient as a sole rule of faith!
　
　

Pax Christi

epostle · Jan 15, 2016

Loco said:

It's not Catholics that constantly change the subject. The topic has shifted to sola scriptura and already attacks against the Intercession of Saints (a doctrine that predates the canon of the Bible) pops up. It's been explained repeatedly. That's just one example. So we need to take the sola scriptura fallacy to another thread.
Protestants have unbiblically severed the umbilical cord between heaven and earth; it's not our fault they refuse to see the Family of God as one family. They demand proof text for every single doctrine and practice yet are unable to proof text the heresy of sola scriptura (Bible alone theology. )

Luke1:43"And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" angry cults say "Mother of God, what, are you kidding me?"

Angel Gabriel says - Luke 1:28 "...Hail, full of grace the Lord is with you!" angry cults say, "What? She's just another sinful women."

Elizabeth says - Luke 1:42 "..Blessed are you amongst women,and blessed is the fruit of your womb!" Catholics say- "Hail, Mary full of Grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed are thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,Jesus...."

angry cults say ,What? I'll never quote that scripture !!!!

"Jesus says"- John 19:26 "Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother!" And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home." angry Prot cults say, -What? Get her out of my house! You aren't going to find her in my home!!!

Rev.12:17 Then the dragon was angry with the *woman*, and went off to make war ON THE REST OF HER OFFSPRING, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea…”angry Prot cults say “woman is Isreal and nothing else!”

I get tired of this shallow claim from Protestants that they "respect" Mary, but really, they don't. If they did they would stop running from her proper BIBLICAL titles.

epostle · Jan 15, 2016

[h=2]New topic:

THREAD SPLIT: SOLA SCRIPTURA, TRUTH OR HERESY[/h]

PaulMack · Jan 15, 2016

The reason fordman and epostle claim Sola Scriptura is false is because neither one of them has accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

We need to understand both epostle and fordman are not True Christians. They are unbelievers who have rejected Jesus Christ to follow the god of the Catholic Church.

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
[SUP]12 [/SUP] And what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Fordman and epostle are false apostles teaching the commandments of men as Doctrines from God.

Matthew 15:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”

This is the main reason why fordman and epostle reject the very Word of God and teach only their church, the Catholic Church, has all the Truths.

Loco · Jan 15, 2016

So by popular acclaim, this thread is on sola Scriptura now, it seems to me. Great, I can think of no better starting point.

I would caution my brothers to first be very clear about what sola Scriptura means and what it does NOT mean. Else you will look foolish in trying to defend the indefensible. In any serious discussion, defining terms is paramount.

Again, for the record, as reformers such as Luther and Calvin defined it; I am totally in agreement with sola Scriptura. As some here seem to think, not so much.

KennethC · Jan 15, 2016

Loco said:

Calvin went apostate in his teachings and derived his OSAS doctrine off of that from Augustine's eternal security doctrine that he made in the 4th century when he went apostate.

Calvin had some good teachings in his early years, but I would caution going by all that he said as in the 1500's when he and others coined the term "once saved always saved" he was going by another's teaching that said falling away and apostasy was impossible; Only Calvin dropped the apostasy out of his !!!

Utah · Jan 15, 2016

KennethC said:

Calvin went apostate in his teachings and derived his OSAS doctrine off of that from Augustine's eternal security doctrine that he made in the 4th century when he went apostate.

Calvin had some good teachings in his early years, but I would caution going by all that he said as in the 1500's when he and others coined the term "once saved always saved" he was going by another's teaching that said falling away and apostasy was impossible; Only Calvin dropped the apostasy out of his !!!

Sola Scriptura, not OSAS, Ken.

KenAllan · Jan 15, 2016

There is only one source for the Truth and He is God. God gave us His Truths in the Scriptures to read and study. Now there are those who believe and teach God only has part of the Truth. They believe its also the Traditions of their Church that also has the Truth.

The problem with this is if they do not like what God says they can reject what God says to follow what their Church says.

This is not how it works.

Many Catholics reject what God has said to believe and accept just the opposite of what God says because their Traditions say differently.

The Roman Catholic Church totally believes and teaches what their Traditions say is the Truth even if it is opposite of what God has said.

All Catholics have to accept what the Roman Catholic Church says or run the risk of being anathema. Which means if they reject what the Roman Catholic Church says they are damned!

Talk about being brainwashed.

This is why fordman and epostle refuse to accept what God says in the Scriptures because they fear the Roman Catholic Church more than they fear God.

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