Monergism or Synergism?

[Issachar92]

Nobody. You would have to be God to be perfect.

Every creation is naturally not God and therefore inclines to evil. This inclination can be weak like in angels or very strong like in fallen human race. But is there.

Why are we inclined to evil? Whats the cause, who is the cause? Im still tryna know, was it Adam that caused it, or the devil that tricked em into it? You say it wasnt God.
Just because something aint God dont mean its naturally incilned to evil, animals aint evil, they just follow their instincts.

Your answer is very unusual for reformed folks, they usually give you the "It was God, but it wasnt God" nonsensical response, thats why im asking again because im interested to hear your view on what or who caused our inclinations to be this way.

 

[trofimus]

Why are we inclined to evil? Whats the cause, who is the cause? Im still tryna know, was it Adam that caused it, or the devil that tricked em into it? You say it wasnt God.
Just because something aint God dont mean its naturally incilned to evil, animals aint evil, they just follow their instincts.

Your answer is very unusual for reformed folks, they usually give you the "It was God, but it wasnt God" nonsensical response, thats why im asking again because im interested to hear your view on what or who caused our inclinations to be this way.

Forget Adam, forget Devil. Their actions strenghten our sinful inclination, but are not the source.
Try to think more ideally.

I will give some quotes, bucause my English is probably not good enough for such formulations:

----

"From the substance of God only a God can proceed, and that thus the creature is derived from nothingness (Augustine De Lib. Arb., lib. 1, c. 2). That is what makes the creature imperfect, faulty and corruptible (De Genesi ad Lit., c. 15, Contra Epistolam Manichaei, c. 36)."

- Only Jesus as God's one-born Son has God's qualities and is perfect. Because He was not created.

----

"The question is asked first of all, whence does evil come?
The answer is, that it must be sought in the ideal nature of the creature, in so far as this nature is contained in the eternal verities which are in the understanding of God, independently of his will.
For we must consider that there is an original imperfection in the creature before sin, because the creature is limited in its essence; whence ensues that it cannot know all, and that it can deceive itself and commit other errors."

----

G.W. Leibniz, Theodicy (yes, this is my source, thats why my answers differ from the reformed camp)

 

[Issachar92]

Forget Adam, forget Devil. Their actions strenghten our sinful inclination, but are not the source.
Try to think more ideally.

I will give some quotes, bucause my English is probably not good enough for such formulations:

----

"From the substance of God only a God can proceed, and that thus the creature is derived from nothingness (Augustine De Lib. Arb., lib. 1, c. 2). That is what makes the creature imperfect, faulty and corruptible (De Genesi ad Lit., c. 15, Contra Epistolam Manichaei, c. 36)."

- Only Jesus as God's one-born Son has God's qualities and is perfect. Because He was not created.

----

"The question is asked first of all, whence does evil come?
The answer is, that it must be sought in the ideal nature of the creature, in so far as this nature is contained in the eternal verities which are in the understanding of God, independently of his will.
For we must consider that there is an original imperfection in the creature before sin, because the creature is limited in its essence; whence ensues that it cannot know all, and that it can deceive itself and commit other errors."

----

G.W. Leibniz, Theodicy (yes, this is my source, thats why my answers differ from the reformed camp)

This guy Augustine is pretty much the cornerstore of reformed theology. I hope you check out the church fathers before the 300s. They agreed with me. Here is this one again:

"We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (Justin First Apology chap. 43)

That sums it up for me. Thats what the jews believe, thats claerly what the early church before nicene believed, thats what makes the most sense and thats what the bible plainly teaches to anyone who just picks it up and reads it from cover to cover as an overall message to humanity.

 

[trofimus]

This guy Augustine is pretty much the cornerstore of reformed theology. I hope you check out the church fathers before the 300s. They agreed with me. Here is this one again:

"We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (Justin First Apology chap. 43)

That sums it up for me. Thats what the jews believe, thats claerly what the early church before nicene believed, thats what makes the most sense and thats what the bible plainly teaches to anyone who just picks it up and reads it from cover to cover as an overall message to humanity.

I did not use the quotation of Augustin and Leibniz in the manner that Augustin must be your authority.

I used them because I think they said it very well and its better than me trying to formulate the same thing.

It was my answer to your question where is the source of evil inclination. In the essence of not being God.

 

[Issachar92]

I did not use the quotation of Augustin and Leibniz in the manner that Augustin must be your authority.

I used them because I think they said it very well and its better than me trying to formulate the same thing.

It was my answer to your question where is the source of evil inclination. In the essence of not being God.

I get it. I understand your view.

 

[trofimus]

I get it. I understand your view.

And do you have any problem with such a view?

Because I cannot imagine why would somebody said its wrong to think that we are not perfect, because we are not God. Or that it is God's fault that we are not God.

 

[Issachar92]

And do you have any problem with such a view?

Because I cannot imagine why would somebody said its wrong to think that we are not perfect, because we are not God. Or that it is God's fault that we are not God.

I sent you a PM

 

[trofimus]

I sent you a PM

I responded. I see no conflict between Justin and what I said in this matter.

 

[Rokurac]

This guy Augustine is pretty much the cornerstore of reformed theology. I hope you check out the church fathers before the 300s. They agreed with me. Here is this one again:

"We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (Justin First Apology chap. 43)

That sums it up for me. Thats what the jews believe, thats claerly what the early church before nicene believed, thats what makes the most sense and thats what the bible plainly teaches to anyone who just picks it up and reads it from cover to cover as an overall message to humanity.

This is often said but see this website it has quotes from even before Justin look

Calvinism in the Early Church (The Doctrines of Grace taught by the Early Church Fathers) | A Puritan's Mind

If you really study these men you notice they share the same disagreements we do and say alot of even contradicting things sometimes.

 

[preacher4truth]

This is often said but see this website it has quotes from even before Justin look

Calvinism in the Early Church (The Doctrines of Grace taught by the Early Church Fathers) | A Puritan's Mind

If you really study these men you notice they share the same disagreements we do and say alot of even contradicting things sometimes.

The above link took me to a virus pop-up. Others be warned. This happened on my zenpad.

 

[Rokurac]

The above link took me to a virus pop-up. Others be warned. This happened on my zenpad.

Sorry, wasnt intentional it did nothing on my screen. how do i remove the link? can someone do it for me please?
i ask the puritan's mind doctrines of grace link to be removed please due to this

 

[preacher4truth]

Sorry, wasnt intentional it did nothing on my screen. how do i remove the link? can someone do it for me please?
i ask the puritan's mind doctrines of grace link to be removed please due to this

No problem I didn't think you'd do that purposefully. Not sure why it did that. Once there it started redirecting until it came to that pop-up.

I tried it in an incognito window and searched it on Puritans mind website and had no issues. Thanks for the article!

 

[Johnny_B]

Which view do you believe and can you say why?

I say Monergism and my reasons is this:

1.When Jesus said you have to be born again, the man who he was speaking to i think realized that Jesus means you cant birth yourself.

2.If Jesus only made salvation possible to all, is it possible that nobody would be saved? If everyone just failed to believe and obey enough? i think not because revelation says from all tribes and languages etc.

3.Bible says God works in us to will and do His good pleasure.

4.In acts it says all who were preordained to eternal life believed.

5.How can someone who is dead in trespasses and sins revive himself? And would he even want to?

If you disagree with my points say why you dont like them and whats wrong.

If you you think synergism is right also tell me why its right with verses.

Here is what lots of people miss with John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

If a person is not born again they cannot see the kingdom of God, if they cannot see the kingdom they do not know that they need to repent or believe.

 

[Depleted]

thanks for that chart. of those i agree with the calvinist most i think its right. so then i should vote monergism right?

whats wrong with the lutheran one hahaha its messy. "illumination" what in the world. "mystical union" yeah thats catholic stuff for sure. maybe this is why the lutheran churches are so messed up.

I honestly don't know Lutherans, so I can't explain what they believe or if it's right/wrong. But "illumination" makes sense -- sort of -- to me. I call that the "light-switch dink." That moment in time when God turns on his light to kill the darkness we were hiding in. Like dinking a light switch. It fits John 3:16-21.

 

[Depleted]

Rediculous isn’t it? I’m so glad I’m not the only one who understands we need to obey God. I’ve encountered all types. One guy said he could get drunk and ‘take home a date from the bar’ on Friday or Saturday, because on Sunday he will take the Lord’s Supper and be forgiven.

What's the difference between that and thinking you're obedient at all times... or you're no longer saved?

Seems equally as ridiculous to me.

 

[Depleted]

Because God is indeed sovereign. He does indeed have the power to override our will; however, since God elects tot to interfere with our will, it is indeed free.

I'd love to see the debate between you and Jonah on that premise. lol

 

[tourist]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[notmyown]

What about

2Cor 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

Since yall love the greek, check out the word for working together, its
συνεργέωsynergeō

Ephesians 2:8-9 again, is talking about works of the law, which was a big controversy at the time when Gentiles started to come in to the church (acts 15:1). In acts 19 we see how a couple of the folks in Ephesus got saved. συνεργέωsynergeō

the verse in 2 Corinthians is addressed to believers. to those with the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit who are enabled by God to obey Him.

that's what Angela meant by monergism in justification; synergism in sanctification.
yes, we must mortify the flesh and put away sin; this is important work and not to be taken lightly.
though i suspect God still does all the heavy lifting there, too. so that no one can boast.

 

[notmyown]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

it's Greek to all of us.

 

[garee]

I would see it as some trying to serve two masters. Monergism and Synergism both. Walking by the faith that comes from hearing God, the faith of Christ not seen and walking by sight .

The Pharisees with Sadducees two different sects that apposed each other followed after the synergistic view. They joined forces to oppose Monergism. Both holding that idealism as a law of the fathers, a false zeal for knowing Christ. .

Today we can look at the Roman Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox in the same way as they put aside their difference to oppose Monergism.

From my experiences they use the verse below to try and establish glorying in their own flesh (walking by sight)

Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the "afflictions of Christ" in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Seeing we do not wrestle against flesh and blood as that seen, the arrows of the father of lies the accuser of the brethren meant for the Son of man are aimed at the Christians , as if killing the messenger, kills the message .( Out of sight out of mind)

In the end of the mater all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) has no authority to them who do walk by sight (Synergism)