Mormons / Latter Day Saints

[VCO]

This is going nowhere. I don't believe in a trinity. Am I doomed? According to you I am. That is hate and this murder. Salvation was of the Jews in Jesus' day. I'm sure then they had no concept of a trinity.

And if you think that is murder, then you must think Jesus is a murderer:

John 8:43-45 (HCSB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] Why don’t you understand what I say? Because you cannot listen to My word.
[SUP]44 [/SUP] You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

Matthew 13:40-42 (HCSB)
[SUP]40 [/SUP] Therefore, just as the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
[SUP]41 [/SUP] The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather from His kingdom everything that causes sin and those guilty of lawlessness.
[SUP]42 [/SUP] They will throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41 (ESV)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:30 (HCSB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And throw this good-for-nothing slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Matthew 25:46 (HCSB)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


NOW I ASK YOU, did Jesus HATE and Murder them, or JUST LOVE THEM ENOUGH TO TELL THEM THE TRUTH and repeated WARN THEM?

 

[notuptome]

All of that sounds wonderful but I don't see it as you do. He said He was ALONE. The difference between me and you is that I won't condemn you for how you see it. We both have knowledge. It is only love that will quell this dispute.

If you think I am here to condemn anyone then you are sadly mistaken. All men are condemned already and are in need of salvation and that's not me but the Lord making that decree.

In a number of places we see people who knew Jesus but never recognized Him for who He really was. Even His miraculous works were not enough to convince some actually most of the people. The more religious folks are the harder it is for them to see Christ. If Jesus is not fully God and fully man then He is nothing and not the Savior that He claimed to be. Romans 10:9-10 demonstrates that the believing requires believing according to what the scriptures reveal about Christ. the greek in that passage includes the words homo logis which translates to believe the same as or think the same as. The short exegesis is that we must believe the same as what the scriptures teach of Christ. So a Christ of our own making is not sufficient. This is made clear in Romans 1 where it says that men changed God into corruptible things and creeping things.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[daniel606]

Posted by notuptome #242

The short exegesis is that we must believe the same as what the scriptures teach of Christ. So a Christ of our own making is not sufficient.

It is more truthful to say: we must believe the same as what the scripture interpretation teaches us of Jesus. From the scriptures just about any position can be supported. So we can have a rather broad range of beliefs and still get support from the scriptures. I know it's not a popular saying, "since narrow is the gate", but some scriptures need to be interpreted and if not done correctly, it can cause many problems. Different bible translations cause problems, because in one translation you can support your position, but not in another, so which one is the truth?

It is not a good situation and I do not know the solution. Everyone can say the Holy Spirit tells them that their way is the way, so how do we proceed. I think I will have a chance to show you what I mean in the near future.

I do enjoy the discussion, so do not give up on me.

 

[VCO]

It is more truthful to say: we must believe the same as what the scripture interpretation teaches us of Jesus. From the scriptures just about any position can be supported. So we can have a rather broad range of beliefs and still get support from the scriptures. I know it's not a popular saying, "since narrow is the gate", but some scriptures need to be interpreted and if not done correctly, it can cause many problems. Different bible translations cause problems, because in one translation you can support your position, but not in another, so which one is the truth?

It is not a good situation and I do not know the solution. Everyone can say the Holy Spirit tells them that their way is the way, so how do we proceed. I think I will have a chance to show you what I mean in the near future.

I do enjoy the discussion, so do not give up on me.

You see Daniel606, you have exposed the problem without even knowing it. The only inspired by GOD Scriptures are Gen. 1:1 THROUGH Rev. 22:21. NOTHING BEYOND THOSE IS SCRIPTURE, but rather only the writings of MEN, and religious con-artists, who made up the whole thing.

What do Mormon's call the Book of Mormon? It is right on your TV ADD: "Another Gospel of Jesus Christ". AND LOOK what the real Scriptures actually say about one who teaches that:

Galatians 1:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

I am not trying to put you down, I am trying to lift you up to the top of HIS HOLY MOUNTAIN, so that you can see the LIGHT of HIS HOLY SCRIPTURES. Please COME to the real Jesus Christ!

THERE is your Angel Moroni in a prophecy from HIS HOLY SCRIPTURES. Please repent and COME, He is calling you.

 

[VCO]

If you think I am here to condemn anyone then you are sadly mistaken. All men are condemned already and are in need of salvation and that's not me but the Lord making that decree.

In a number of places we see people who knew Jesus but never recognized Him for who He really was. Even His miraculous works were not enough to convince some actually most of the people. The more religious folks are the harder it is for them to see Christ. If Jesus is not fully God and fully man then He is nothing and not the Savior that He claimed to be. Romans 10:9-10 demonstrates that the believing requires believing according to what the scriptures reveal about Christ. the greek in that passage includes the words homo logis which translates to believe the same as or think the same as. The short exegesis is that we must believe the same as what the scriptures teach of Christ. So a Christ of our own making is not sufficient. This is made clear in Romans 1 where it says that men changed God into corruptible things and creeping things.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Amen, Amen, and AMEN!

 

[directline2iam]

GOD IS ETERNAL AND THEREFORE CANNOT DIE. YET, God said the highest form of love is when someone lays down HIS life for a friend. THEREFORE how is GOD going to show that kind of LOVE? HE through the part of HIMSELF that is known as the Holy Spirit, created in the womb of Mary, a body that the Part of HIMSELF that is known as the SON, could enter and thereby have a body that HE, GOD HIMSELF, could demonstrate that ULTIMATE FORM OF LOVE, and die for HIS friends. If that is not EXACTLY what happened, then GOD'S LOVE is less than what a human can do./QUOTE VCO


This is incorrect understanding. First of all thinking as a human is commendable, but that is as far as it goes.
God through Himself that is, the Father and begotten Son who are Eternal Spirit and Holy, created in the womb of Mary, a human body with Gods' Eternal Holy Spirit in it, and was to be called Emanuel which is God with us. His English pronounced name is Jesus, the Holy Eternal Spirit God who is now also fully human being. Who could demonstrate that ULTIMATE FORM OF LOVE, and die for HIS sin filled condemned creation.


Why do I believe there can be a TRIUNE BEING? Because YOU were created in the image of GOD, and YOU are a Triune Being, three parts that make up ONE human being. You are Body, Soul, and Spirit, YET you are only ONE human being./QUOTE VCO


You are created in the image of God who is Father and begotten son which is one Eternal Holy Spirit.
You are made up of two parts, a body and a spirit which becomes a human soul upon the two joining.
Now that you are a living human soul, when you die, you loose the coruptable body, but God in His Love and mercy will give you a new Holy Spiritual uncoruptable body and then you become an Holy Spiritual Eternally living Human Soul.

This is the Word of God given to us in the written form called the KJV.

 

[daniel606]

Posted by VCO #244

What do Mormon's call the Book of Mormon? It is right on your TV ADD: "Another Gospel of Jesus Christ".

I think what it says if you will look at it closely is: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. Meaning another testifier or a second witness of the same Jesus Christ that you find in the bible. A powerful second witness because it is from a group of people that lived 7,000 miles from Jerusalem, but teach the same gospel as the Jerusalem Christians. But certainly not "Another gospel of Jesus Christ". Meaning we preach a different Jesus from what the Bible teaches. Everything we teach about Jesus is supported by the scriptures in the Bible.

So look again and you will see your mistake.

By the way are you going to answer my question that I posted on #240, I'm interested to know. Thanks

 

[daniel606]

Posted by directline2iam #246

GOD IS ETERNAL AND THEREFORE CANNOT DIE. YET, God said the highest form of love is when someone lays down HIS life for a friend. THEREFORE how is GOD going to show that kind of LOVE? HE through the part of HIMSELF that is known as the Holy Spirit, created in the womb of Mary, a body that the Part of HIMSELF that is known as the SON, could enter and thereby have a body that HE, GOD HIMSELF, could demonstrate that ULTIMATE FORM OF LOVE, and die for HIS friends. If that is not EXACTLY what happened, then GOD'S LOVE is less than what a human can do./QUOTE VCO


This is incorrect understanding. First of all thinking as a human is commendable, but that is as far as it goes.
God through Himself that is, the Father and begotten Son who are Eternal Spirit and Holy, created in the womb of Mary, a human body with Gods' Eternal Holy Spirit in it, and was to be called Emanuel which is God with us. His English pronounced name is Jesus, the Holy Eternal Spirit God who is now also fully human being. Who could demonstrate that ULTIMATE FORM OF LOVE, and die for HIS sin filled condemned creation.


Why do I believe there can be a TRIUNE BEING? Because YOU were created in the image of GOD, and YOU are a Triune Being, three parts that make up ONE human being. You are Body, Soul, and Spirit, YET you are only ONE human being./QUOTE VCO


Posted by

You are created in the image of God who is Father and begotten son which is one Eternal Holy Spirit.
You are made up of two parts, a body and a spirit which becomes a human soul upon the two joining.
Now that you are a living human soul, when you die, you loose the coruptable body, but God in His Love and mercy will give you a new Holy Spiritual uncoruptable body and then you become an Holy Spiritual Eternally living Human Soul.

This is the Word of God given to us in the written form called the KJV.

This post is a microcosm of what I am talking about. Here you have VCO and directline2iam, who are 2 wonderful Christian men who love the Lord, who study and pray daily.

There is one of 2 scenarios enacted in this post:

1) They both believe in the Trinity and shake hands and give thumbs up and all is well. But then you start talking about the make-up of the Trinity and there is major division. Then accusations start flying and who's Jesus is the Jesus of the Bible?

2) One believes in the Trinity and the other one doesn't. Again accusations start flying and who's Jesus is the Jesus of the Bible?

I guarantee that they both love the Bible and read it every day and study and pray, but who can say which one is following the Jesus of the Bible. Which one is preaching another gospel.

As a Mormon, I am accused every day of following a false Jesus and preaching another gospel. Well am I? My Bible is the KJV and I study every day and pray too for guidance. I too believe all the main tenets that other Christians believe. But when you get to the make-up of the Trinity, I too will disagree, just like these 2 good Christian men disagree.

The solution is love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. Keep this dialogue going in this special Christian chat room so that all can hear all sides of the story and perhaps in a setting of love and truth seeking we can find the true Jesus of the Bible.

 

[Flamingspirit]

And if you think that is murder, then you must think Jesus is a murderer:

John 8:43-45 (HCSB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] Why don’t you understand what I say? Because you cannot listen to My word.
[SUP]44 [/SUP] You are of your father the Devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and has not stood in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of liars.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

Matthew 13:40-42 (HCSB)
[SUP]40 [/SUP] Therefore, just as the weeds are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
[SUP]41 [/SUP] The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather from His kingdom everything that causes sin and those guilty of lawlessness.
[SUP]42 [/SUP] They will throw them into the blazing furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41 (ESV)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:30 (HCSB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] And throw this good-for-nothing slave into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Matthew 25:46 (HCSB)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


NOW I ASK YOU, did Jesus HATE and Murder them, or JUST LOVE THEM ENOUGH TO TELL THEM THE TRUTH and repeated WARN THEM?

This IS the burning furnace!

Jude 1:21-23

21*Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22*And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23*And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Those in the kingdom of Christ are not subject to death.

Any man who hates his brother is a murderer! Do I have to show that verse too?

Whether you are right or wrong, do you see me your brother saved like I see you? I know knowledge will cease.

 

[Flamingspirit]

If you think I am here to condemn anyone then you are sadly mistaken. All men are condemned already and are in need of salvation and that's not me but the Lord making that decree.

In a number of places we see people who knew Jesus but never recognized Him for who He really was. Even His miraculous works were not enough to convince some actually most of the people. The more religious folks are the harder it is for them to see Christ. If Jesus is not fully God and fully man then He is nothing and not the Savior that He claimed to be. Romans 10:9-10 demonstrates that the believing requires believing according to what the scriptures reveal about Christ. the greek in that passage includes the words homo logis which translates to believe the same as or thin the same as. The short exegesis is that we must believe the same as what the scriptures teach of Christ. So a Christ of our own making is not sufficient. This is made clear in Romans 1 where it says that men changed God into corruptible things and creeping things.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If ALL men are condemned already then simply act like it. And everyday we punch that clock for that paycheck, people starve for it! We truly have turned the image of God into a vain object and it's called the almighty dollar!

 

[Dan_473]

I like this kind of thinking. Your wife must be a wonderful person to agree to forgo luxury in order to aspire to higher ideals.
May the Lord bless your decisions.

Thank you.

 

[Dan_473]

That's what I have been saying all along. All Christians do not believe in the Trinity. It took hundreds of years and a lot of blood was spilt and a lot of politics for the Trinity Doctrine to win the day over the Arian Doctrine. Even today 1700 years later, there is still a large % of Christians that do not believe in the Trinity. Then you take those that do believe in the Trinity and you will find much division among that group as to how they believe the Trinity acutally functions.

My point is that it is confusing to me that I am not considered a Christian by VCO, but he would consider Catholicism Christian. I can bet that if VCO went point by point, his belief vs Catholic, he would become very frustrated, very fast. How then, are they still considered Christians and me not a Christian?

I did ask VCO a question about the Divinity of Christ on Post #225. Please chime in on that question if you wish.

Who is a Christian? I suppose it gets down to what one means by Christian... And what do we mean by Buddhist? A basic follower of the buddha? Daniel Peterson, pro Mormon apologist, says Mormons are Christians, but they are not traditional Christians... C.S. Lewis said a person is a Christian if they claim to be... Divinity and Jesus, the orthodox view is that Jesus was always God, John 1:1 is usually given... Myself, I see a progression with how the Jesus story is told... In Mark, probably written first, the story starts with Jesus full grown... Next, Mathew and Luke start with his birth... Then John goes back to the beginning of time...

 

[Dan_473]

Amen, Amen, and AMEN!

VCO, I'm concerned that I haven't seen your response about the nasb footnote about the longer ending of Mark... I think it's an important issue... Did you want to comment on it?

 

[daniel606]

Posted by Dan_473 #252

Who is a Christian? I suppose it gets down to what one means by Christian... And what do we mean by Buddhist? A basic follower of the buddha? Daniel Peterson, pro Mormon apologist, says Mormons are Christians, but they are not traditional Christians... C.S. Lewis said a person is a Christian if they claim to be... Divinity and Jesus, the orthodox view is that Jesus was always God, John 1:1 is usually given... Myself, I see a progression with how the Jesus story is told... In Mark, probably written first, the story starts with Jesus full grown... Next, Mathew and Luke start with his birth... Then John goes back to the beginning of time...

The simple answer to who is a Christian is: A person who believes that Jesus is Divine and that he was sent to earth by his Father in heaven (our Father in heaven) to teach men about the true Nature of God, and about the gospel of Jesus Christ. He also came to earth to be sacrificed for our sins and to be resurrected so that we too could be resurrected some day. He did what he said he would do and we look to him as our Savior.

Once you get past that simple definition of what a Christian is (which pretty much covers all believers, Mormons included), you find a difficult road to consenses on the details, even with a sincere study of the scriptures. That is the reason we still need 12 living apostles and living prophets and Jesus as our Chief Cornerstone. There would still be those that would disagree even to the face of the Savior, but the world-wide group of Christians would be much closer spiritually and socially.
Can you imagine if all the believers in Jesus got together under the direction of 12 living apostles of Jesus Christ and had a great conference and all bickering and strife was eliminated, what we could accomplish. I would look forward to such a great event.

I don't know a lot about Buddha. I know he was a great teacher of love, that cared for other humans and wanted them to be happy. Other men over the years took his teachings and molded them into a religion. By good works and eventually finding nirvana, you can find the ultimate happiness. Of course we know that without Jesus as your Savior, ultimate happiness can not be reached. They will have an oppertunity to learn about Jesus too.

So carry on and be a good Christian for Christ, the world is a better place for you and your wives efforts.

 

[VCO]

GOD IS ETERNAL AND THEREFORE CANNOT DIE. YET, God said the highest form of love is when someone lays down HIS life for a friend. THEREFORE how is GOD going to show that kind of LOVE? HE through the part of HIMSELF that is known as the Holy Spirit, created in the womb of Mary, a body that the Part of HIMSELF that is known as the SON, could enter and thereby have a body that HE, GOD HIMSELF, could demonstrate that ULTIMATE FORM OF LOVE, and die for HIS friends. If that is not EXACTLY what happened, then GOD'S LOVE is less than what a human can do./QUOTE VCO


This is incorrect understanding. First of all thinking as a human is commendable, but that is as far as it goes.
God through Himself that is, the Father and begotten Son who are Eternal Spirit and Holy, created in the womb of Mary, a human body with Gods' Eternal Holy Spirit in it, and was to be called Emanuel which is God with us. His English pronounced name is Jesus, the Holy Eternal Spirit God who is now also fully human being. Who could demonstrate that ULTIMATE FORM OF LOVE, and die for HIS sin filled condemned creation.


Why do I believe there can be a TRIUNE BEING? Because YOU were created in the image of GOD, and YOU are a Triune Being, three parts that make up ONE human being. You are Body, Soul, and Spirit, YET you are only ONE human being./QUOTE VCO


You are created in the image of God who is Father and begotten son which is one Eternal Holy Spirit.
You are made up of two parts, a body and a spirit which becomes a human soul upon the two joining.
Now that you are a living human soul, when you die, you loose the coruptable body, but God in His Love and mercy will give you a new Holy Spiritual uncoruptable body and then you become an Holy Spiritual Eternally living Human Soul.

This is the Word of God given to us in the written form called the KJV.

NOW where on earth did you get that strange teaching about the spirit becoming a human soul? ? ?

Even this seems worded strangley, "you become an Holy Spiritual Eternally living Human Soul." Maybe it is just a different term for some of our beliefs about Sanctification, so please explain what you mean by that.

WHO HAS BEEN TEACHING YOU THOSE THINGS? ? ?

So it appears you have some false teachings, that do not square with things that SCRIPTURES actually says:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (ASV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Zechariah 12:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

John 3:5-7 (NKJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Apparently, you do not know what the soul is?
LOOK at the GREEK WORD FOR SOUL, and the we find a MAJOR CLUE:

3 John 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers.

Greek Strong's Number: 5590


Transliteration: psychē

It is the breath of GOD that activates or breaths LIFE into to the human psyche, or MIND. THAT IS NOT the Human spirit. Thoughts, memories, emotions, feelings, cognative abilities, learning process, etc. are all part of the human soul. AGAIN that is NOT the human spirit that MUST be born of Holy Spirit HIMSELF.



THERE IS ONLY ON HOLY SPIRIT, and HE is part of GOD HIMSELF, Part of the Holy Trinity:

Matthew 28:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name {SINGULAR} of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,Acts 5:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?
[SUP]4 [/SUP] "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."
John 1:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
[SUP]13 [/SUP] who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. {John 3:6 above}

Romans 8:15 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”

 

[VCO]

Who is a Christian? I suppose it gets down to what one means by Christian... And what do we mean by Buddhist? A basic follower of the buddha? Daniel Peterson, pro Mormon apologist, says Mormons are Christians, but they are not traditional Christians... C.S. Lewis said a person is a Christian if they claim to be... Divinity and Jesus, the orthodox view is that Jesus was always God, John 1:1 is usually given... Myself, I see a progression with how the Jesus story is told... In Mark, probably written first, the story starts with Jesus full grown... Next, Mathew and Luke start with his birth... Then John goes back to the beginning of time...

I told you that there is ONLY one DIVINE ETERNAL GOD, and that is the TRIUNE GOD, WHO is made up three personages, with three different functions within GOD, YET they are still ONLY ONE GOD. The expression Eternal GOD, means HE NEVER HAD A BEGINNING AND HE NEVER WILL HAVE AN END. So your question as to when Jesus received His divinity, was totally flawed.

Again you are not reading the whole thing. We only have the highlights of the life of Jesus, READ the last couple verses in JOHN.

 

[VCO]

It is more truthful to say: we must believe the same as what the scripture interpretation teaches us of Jesus. From the scriptures just about any position can be supported. So we can have a rather broad range of beliefs and still get support from the scriptures. I know it's not a popular saying, "since narrow is the gate", but some scriptures need to be interpreted and if not done correctly, it can cause many problems. Different bible translations cause problems, because in one translation you can support your position, but not in another, so which one is the truth?

It is not a good situation and I do not know the solution. Everyone can say the Holy Spirit tells them that their way is the way, so how do we proceed. I think I will have a chance to show you what I mean in the near future.

I do enjoy the discussion, so do not give up on me.

Different Bible Translations do not cause me any PROBLEMS. As long as it is a VALID TRANSLATION and NOT a Paraphrase. I know that some are going to want to throw stones at me for saying this, but TECHNICALLY the KJV in a lot of places is only a Paraphrase and not a Translation from original language manuscripts. READ the Original Preface of the 1611 Authorized King James Version, and you will find that the translators admitted that the source of a lot of their work was from Earlier English Manuscripts. THAT IS PARAPHRASING AND NOT TRANSLATING. Yes, I read every word of that Original Preface and that Ancient English tied my brain in a knot, stretched and twisted it, like a rubber band, until it SNAPPED. IT took me three days to read that preface, because I kept getting headache just trying to figure out what the author was saying. But I did glean enough to understand that the original KJV, is NOT a pure Translation, as some Paraphrasing was used too. Do not get me wrong, I still think the KJV is a very good Translation/Paraphrase. But it is always better to actually TRANSLATE, instead of Paraphrase.

Like I have said before, EVERY TIME I do a study or Post on this or other sites, I have ten translations of the Bible open, and I have NO problem with any one of them. THEY ALL SAY THE SAME THING. The WORD OF GOD is what the verses MEAN BY WHAT THEY SAY, and NOT which Valid Translation you are using. AND I CAN FIND THE EXACT SAME MEANING IN ALL OF THESE. NKJV, HCSB, NASB, ESV, KJV, ASV, NRSV, NIV, GWT, and YLT. I can TEACH what I believe, and WHY I believe it, from ALL OF THEM.

 

[Dan_473]

The simple answer to who is a Christian is: A person who believes that Jesus is Divine and that he was sent to earth by his Father in heaven (our Father in heaven) to teach men about the true Nature of God, and about the gospel of Jesus Christ. He also came to earth to be sacrificed for our sins and to be resurrected so that we too could be resurrected some day. He did what he said he would do and we look to him as our Savior.

Once you get past that simple definition of what a Christian is (which pretty much covers all believers, Mormons included), you find a difficult road to consenses on the details, even with a sincere study of the scriptures. That is the reason we still need 12 living apostles and living prophets and Jesus as our Chief Cornerstone. There would still be those that would disagree even to the face of the Savior, but the world-wide group of Christians would be much closer spiritually and socially.
Can you imagine if all the believers in Jesus got together under the direction of 12 living apostles of Jesus Christ and had a great conference and all bickering and strife was eliminated, what we could accomplish. I would look forward to such a great event.

I don't know a lot about Buddha. I know he was a great teacher of love, that cared for other humans and wanted them to be happy. Other men over the years took his teachings and molded them into a religion. By good works and eventually finding nirvana, you can find the ultimate happiness. Of course we know that without Jesus as your Savior, ultimate happiness can not be reached. They will have an oppertunity to learn about Jesus too.

So carry on and be a good Christian for Christ, the world is a better place for you and your wives efforts.

Thank you for the nice message! I just brought up Buddhism as an example of what is a Buddhist... there's lots of variation... just like in Christians...I do think that some amount of revelation is given to all people... So I think it's interesting to see what they do with it... so, about ongoing revelation today... a big question for me is whether the spirit leads individuals, or the church as a whole... Catholics say the whole church, represented by the hierarchy centered in Rome... for eastern orthodox, when the whole church meets in holy council, the outcome is guaranteed by God... I tend to go with the individual approach... which is minority of Christianity, though many Protestants think that way... it's also the usual position of heretics in history...I remember when I first realized,wow this must be what it feels like to grow up a heretic... So, an ongoing prophet, twelve apostles in SLC? To be honest, it doesn't strike me right... though, as I said, I like to keep an open mind... I'm interested in talking more about it, if you like...

 

[VCO]

This IS the burning furnace!

Jude 1:21-23

21*Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22*And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23*And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Those in the kingdom of Christ are not subject to death.

Any man who hates his brother is a murderer! Do I have to show that verse too?

Whether you are right or wrong, do you see me your brother saved like I see you? I know knowledge will cease.

No, "pulling them out of the fire" is a reference to how quickly you must pull someone out of a cult, lest you own garment gets burned. It is a reminder NOT to hang around false teaching too long, or your garment may become spotted, in that you will forget where the False information comes from, and start thinking it came from your Church. My son-in-law experienced a real example of that problem. One day he and I were debating the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, and he proceeded to give me the classic explanation from the Jehovah Witnesses. I KNOW FOR SURE he had never been to the Jehovah Witness Church, so I asked, "What have you been doing, reading Watchtower Magazines?" I used to read them, and figured I would glean the good things in the articles and forget the bad. He was shocked when I explained that he had given me the Watchtower's explanation, instead of what his own Church actually teaches. That is why when you are trying to warn or lead a friend away false doctrines or teachings, you snatch them out of it quickly, lest your own Christian garments get burned or spotted with the false teachings.

And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh [Jude 1:23].

"And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire" refers to sinners whom we consider hopeless. It seems impossible that they will ever be saved. And yet I have seen some of these folk come to know Christ by hearing God's Word by radio. Jude admonishes us not to give them up -- "others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire." What a tremendous statement! In Zechariah 3:2 we read this: "And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?" When God intended to save Jerusalem, He said, "I am just taking a brand out of the fire." Apparently there is no one who is beyond redemption, if they want to be saved.

Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.
Thru The Bible with J. Vernon McGee.

23 others save. Others, who are committed to the errors taught by the apostates, need immediate and forthright attention before they are further entrenched on the road to the fire of hell (cf. v. 7) as a result of embracing deceptive lies. with fear. This third group (see note on vv. 22, 23) also needs mercy, even though they are thoroughly polluted by apostate teaching. These people are to be given the true gospel, but with great fear, lest the deliverer be contaminated also. The defiled garment pictures the apostate’s debauched life, which can spread its contagion to the well-meaning evangel.

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

When Jesus talked about Eternal Fire, or Eternal Punishment, Furnace of Fire, or Everlasting Fire, He was LITERALLY, talking about HELL which is the Lake of Fire. HELL is REAL, and it's burning is forever. An unbeliever's body and soul may be totally consumed by those flames, but an unbeliever's human spirit will be in that Lake of Fire for the rest of eternity. I KNOW PERSONALLY the REALITY of Hades and Hell. I stood in the doorway two nights in my life, when I had a pistol to my head and the trigger half pulled, WHEN an overwhelming TERROR shook me to the core of my being, with a KNOWLEDGE that HELL is for REAL, and FOREVER! I was not afraid to die, it was what I was yearning for at the moment.

 

[Flamingspirit]

If you say so. But if God is a consuming fire, how many fires do you see? Again there is no way to change your mind. Hell is real and I'm telling you that we can avoid the grave! Now! The first step in this is to stop using money.

Of course the people including you won't listen. That's what makes this hard to do. The answers to our problems is so easy children can get it right, but we "adults" want to complicate it with our "superior" knowledge over one another. Blessings and cursing cannot come from the same mouth.


If one died for all, then all were dead. Learn what this means.