Mormons / Latter Day Saints
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i am not educated in Hebrew.
you'll have to ask someone who is, and there are many on the forum, to tell you what the plural case for this word "bā·rā" (created) would be. click the word, it's a link to a lexicon. look on the right side of the page giving variations - of other tenses - for the same root word. the plural cases are a different form.
but literally 30 seconds in a search engine will give you thousands of results verifying that this is true.
here's one: http://www.sitchiniswrong.com/Elohim.pdf
yes john luke --
Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus,
who has become for us wisdom from God -- that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
(1 Corinthians 1:26-30)
Jesus is the revealed personification of God's wisdom for us - and it may be that He is exactly what Solomon wrote to us about, because Solomon's wisdom was also the gift of God, as Christ is to us.
Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him.
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus,
who has become for us wisdom from God -- that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
(1 Corinthians 1:26-30)
Jesus is the revealed personification of God's wisdom for us - and it may be that He is exactly what Solomon wrote to us about, because Solomon's wisdom was also the gift of God, as Christ is to us.
i didn't report / complain at all either. =[
i disagree with a lot of what he had to say, but i'd rather be able to have a conversation than boot people off the forum, and i thought that was what was going on here - i don't like seeing anyone get banned.
a lot of this LDS theology is in opposition to the rest of scripture; and the forum admins are not kind towards anyone teaching the scripture is corrupt - so i guess i can see justification for a boot. i think it's good for us to search the scriptures and reason out where & why LDS thinking is wrong, and sorry that with Daniel gone we don't have the opposing view to talk with now.
This is a traditional songs that I grew up with in church exemplifying the Father, Son, and Holy spirit. I'll remember th truth in it until I die.
Holy, Holy, Holy
http://www.notmybattle.com/musicdownloads/howgreatthouart.php
Holy, Holy, Holy
http://www.notmybattle.com/musicdownloads/howgreatthouart.php
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Just a couple of questions I had as I read your response to Daniel606.
If chapter 2 is just a synopsis of what happened in chapter 1, why was there no plants on the earth yet, or why was there no man to till the ground? The plants were all created in chapter 1, Adam was created in the 1st chapter, if they were not on the earth, according to 2:5, where were they? Any ideas? I'm a bit confused.
If chapter 2 is just a synopsis of what happened in chapter 1, why was there no plants on the earth yet, or why was there no man to till the ground? The plants were all created in chapter 1, Adam was created in the 1st chapter, if they were not on the earth, according to 2:5, where were they? Any ideas? I'm a bit confused.
אֵלֶּה תוֹלְדוֹת הַשָּׁמַיִם והארץ בהבראם
Genesis 2:4a Original Hebrew “These are the heavens and the earth chronicles when they were created”
**“Generations” is plural menaing a number of things or a number of occurrences in summary.
Genesis 2:4a These are the **generations of the heavens and of the earth *when they were created
8435 towldah to-led-aw' or toldah {to-led-aw'}; from 3205; (plural only) descent, i.e. family; (figuratively) history:--birth, generations.
Genesis 2:4-5 is a summary of chronology of Genesis 1:1-10
Genesis 2:7-9 is a summary of chronology of Genesis 1:11-13 and 1:26-28a
*when they were = In Hebrew word related to recovery as in revisiting what was previous
Genesis 2:4a could also be written like this.
'This is the history of the heavens and the earth revisiting what was previously created'
Genesis 2:4a Original Hebrew “These are the heavens and the earth chronicles when they were created”
**“Generations” is plural menaing a number of things or a number of occurrences in summary.
Genesis 2:4a These are the **generations of the heavens and of the earth *when they were created
8435 towldah to-led-aw' or toldah {to-led-aw'}; from 3205; (plural only) descent, i.e. family; (figuratively) history:--birth, generations.
Genesis 2:4-5 is a summary of chronology of Genesis 1:1-10
Genesis 2:7-9 is a summary of chronology of Genesis 1:11-13 and 1:26-28a
*when they were = In Hebrew word related to recovery as in revisiting what was previous
Genesis 2:4a could also be written like this.
'This is the history of the heavens and the earth revisiting what was previously created'
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just look at ch. 2 separately, already having understood ch. 1:
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
(Genesis 2:1-3)
this rounds out the creation story in ch. 1
the next section begins with another introductory statement much like Genesis 1:1 --
These are the generations
of the heavens and the earth when they were created,
in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up — for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground — then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
(Genesis 2:4-9)
this gives a shortened version of chapter 1's creation account - the plants were formed first, and after that God created man (consistent with ch. 1).
when man was created, God placed him in Eden. it's not clear whether He planted the garden in Eden before He created man, or if He created Adam, then a garden to place him in, and put him there. i think either view of that is consistent with the rest of the book.
the rest of ch. 2 goes on to detail Eden and what took place there.
i've seen Genesis 2:5 taken out of context like this before, from atheists, mormons, and others calling it a contradiction. but i really believe if you just read it as it's written, verse 4 indicates that verses 5-7 are a synopsis of what's told in more detail in chapter 1, and verse 7 in particular reaffirms that understanding, because it harmonizes verses 4-7 with chapter 1.
the way i understand it is like this:
(ch. 1)
God created the heavens and the earth, and He created them like so:
day 1:
day 2:
..
day 6:
then God saw that His work was good, and rested.
(ch. 2)
so this is how the heavens and the earth came to be, and God rested and blessed the 7th day.
after He had created the plants, but before He created man, the cultivated plants had not yet sprung up, and He watered the land with a mist instead of rain.
then He created man, and the garden at Eden, and put man in the Garden.
does that make sense?
the thing is that if you skip verse 4, verse 5 looks like it is out of place, and verse 7 looks like man is created twice. but if you recognize verse 4 as introducing the story of creation again, but in a narrower context to presage the story of how Eden came to be, then verses 5-7 make sense as a brief synopsis of what the book has already laid out, giving a little more specific information leading into the rest of the story.
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.
So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.
(Genesis 2:1-3)
this rounds out the creation story in ch. 1
the next section begins with another introductory statement much like Genesis 1:1 --
These are the generations
of the heavens and the earth when they were created,
in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.
When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up — for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, and a mist was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground — then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.
And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground the Lord God made to spring up every tree that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
(Genesis 2:4-9)
this gives a shortened version of chapter 1's creation account - the plants were formed first, and after that God created man (consistent with ch. 1).
when man was created, God placed him in Eden. it's not clear whether He planted the garden in Eden before He created man, or if He created Adam, then a garden to place him in, and put him there. i think either view of that is consistent with the rest of the book.
the rest of ch. 2 goes on to detail Eden and what took place there.
i've seen Genesis 2:5 taken out of context like this before, from atheists, mormons, and others calling it a contradiction. but i really believe if you just read it as it's written, verse 4 indicates that verses 5-7 are a synopsis of what's told in more detail in chapter 1, and verse 7 in particular reaffirms that understanding, because it harmonizes verses 4-7 with chapter 1.
the way i understand it is like this:
(ch. 1)
God created the heavens and the earth, and He created them like so:
day 1:
day 2:
..
day 6:
then God saw that His work was good, and rested.
(ch. 2)
so this is how the heavens and the earth came to be, and God rested and blessed the 7th day.
after He had created the plants, but before He created man, the cultivated plants had not yet sprung up, and He watered the land with a mist instead of rain.
then He created man, and the garden at Eden, and put man in the Garden.
does that make sense?
the thing is that if you skip verse 4, verse 5 looks like it is out of place, and verse 7 looks like man is created twice. but if you recognize verse 4 as introducing the story of creation again, but in a narrower context to presage the story of how Eden came to be, then verses 5-7 make sense as a brief synopsis of what the book has already laid out, giving a little more specific information leading into the rest of the story.
Summary of Joseph Smith's doctrine of origins and chronological sequences.
1. Matter is eternal
2. This matter produced a human that grew in wisdom and became the first man.
3.This man eventually became the God of the Biblical Genesis who produced other humans.
4. From these humans came more Gods.
5. Only through Joseph Smith (he will accept only those whom he approves) will we be able to enter into the kingdom where we will become a God of our own planet.
Pretty close to evolution in my opinion. They don't believe God is a Spirit.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
1. Matter is eternal
2. This matter produced a human that grew in wisdom and became the first man.
3.This man eventually became the God of the Biblical Genesis who produced other humans.
4. From these humans came more Gods.
5. Only through Joseph Smith (he will accept only those whom he approves) will we be able to enter into the kingdom where we will become a God of our own planet.
Pretty close to evolution in my opinion. They don't believe God is a Spirit.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.