Mouldy Mary ?

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maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,416
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I see what you're trying to say, but I respectfully disagree. Yes, we are talking to Mary (also when did I say we don't talk to Mary? I don't remember that). Yes, we are asking something of Mary. But as for talking to someone in Heaven always being considered a prayer? I disagree with that. We are asking a service of someone, something that we do every day here on earth. I'm not asking Mary to help me pass my school exam, I'm asking Mary to pray to God that I pass my school exam, just like you would ask a friend to pray for you. I must admit I've never asked a non-Catholic about what counts as a prayer and what doesn't, but I've always believed (as do other Catholics so far as I know) that the only person you pray to is God. Talking to someone in Heaven is just like talking to someone that lives on your street, you just don't have them standing right in front of you. I suppose it might not come up much outside of the Catholic church, because not many other religions believe in asking saints/Mary/etc. to pray for them.

The Official Vatican Website (vatican.va)

Says CATHOLICS PRAY TO MARY.


If you don't like it, don't argue with me, go argue with the POPE.





Vatican Website,
Official Catechism,
says Catholics pray to Mary.



Catechism of The Catholic Church

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p4s1c2a2.htm
PART FOUR
--> SECTION ONE
-----> CHAPTER TWO
--------> ARTICLE 2 (THE WAY OF PRAYER )

2679
"When we pray to her, we are adhering with her to the plan of the Father"
"We can pray with and to her."

2675
"the Churches developed their prayer to the holy Mother of God"





 
G

Gods_Guy

Guest
Mary and the saints can't hear you all if you pray at the same time. They are not omniscient and omnipresent. God is in front of you and hears loud and clear, what's inside your heart. Praying to Mary and the saints, for me is like thinking as if the opinion of Mary and the saints matter to God like they are on the same level of Holiness and that also looks like you are too afraid of God that you need back up as if they can do anything.
You're right, the only omniscient person is God. Let me quote scripture for a second (Catholics DO read the Bible, ya know :p) -

"I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in Heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance." (Luke 15:7)

Now, how can there be joy in heaven if the residents aren't at least somewhat aware of what is going on on earth? How will they know that a sinner has repented if they are 'locked in Heaven', so to speak?

Also, in Revelation 8, it says "He [an angel] was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones in Heaven". This, of course, points out that people in Heaven pray. Why is it so ludicrous to think that they couldn't pray upon our intercession?

May I pose a question? Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you, or prayed for a friend? Did you feel as though you were afraid of God to the point that you needed to approach Him with backup? James 5:16 says "The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful." There is no doubt that Heaven contains nothing but righteous people, so wouldn't it make sense to ask souls with 'powerful prayers' to intercede for you?
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
I think the Catholic church would of been better off if the really listen to Mary.

These are the last recorded words of Mary referring to Jesus.



5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
48
What does communion bread have to do with Mary? Nothing. Your fixation
on Mary is disturbing, but sadly also typical among Roman Catholic.

God several times throughout Scripture says He will not share His glory,
while Catholics glorify, venerate, and adore Mary.
Jesus did not once in
Scripture address Mary as His mother, but Catholics call her the mother
of humanity, and as if that were not enough, the queen of heaven.

Jesus said that anyone who did the will of God was His mother, His brother,
His sister. Jesus never elevated Mary above others, but Roman Catholics
feel a need to not just elevate Mary above others, but they put her on a par
with Jesus in terms of His sinlessness, (do you really think that she needed
to be sinless so that Jesus Christ could be sinless?).
They are forced by
so-called infallible papal decree to accept the Marian dogmas of her bodily
assumption and immaculate conception, neither of which have any basis
whatsoever in Scripture.

Jesus told us to pray to our Father in heaven, yet they pray to Mary, because
their popes tell them to despite what Jesus explicitly instructed. Scripture
clearly states that there is one intercessor between God and man, yet their
popes, bishops, priests, parishioners etc, will tell you to pray to Mary, and
other dead people, for intercession. They fault those who do as Jesus instructed,
while they disobey Him to follow someone else instead.

We see nothing in Scripture to endorse her bodily assumption, her perpetual virginity
(Jesus had siblings after all, two of whom have books in the Bible!), her immaculate
conception. We see no need to pray to her, or any ability on her part, as dead as she is
believed to be, to intercede on our behalf against the explicit words of Jesus in Scripture.

Within Catholicism, there is a drive to define a new Marian dogma in which
Catholics, as a matter of faith, would be obliged to accept: 1) Mary participates
in redemption with Jesus Christ; 2) grace is granted by Jesus only through the
intercession of Mary; and 3) all prayers from the faithful must flow through
Mary, who brings them to the attention of her Son. Scripture also tells us not
to call anyone Father but God, while they call many men "father" and blindly
follow them.

Roman Catholics believe that a fallible man is the Rock that Jesus is building
His Church on, not a confession of faith divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit of God,
despite a plethora of Scriptures that attest to the fact that God is the sole Rock
of our salvation. They teach purgatory, and many other things neither the apostles
nor Jesus ever taught. For instance, they claim priests must be celibate, when they
were not in the early church. Another example would be infant baptism, nowhere
prom
oted in Scripture. They burned people at the stake for daring to read the Bible,
which is what Scripture tells us to do. Despite all this, and more, the
Catholic Church
considers herself the only valid expression of the community of God.


Question: "Are Catholic beliefs and practices biblical?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/Catholic-Biblical.html

Here are a couple of sites that detail some of the changing beliefs of the RCC:

Catholicism's Ever-Changing Doctrine

Doctrinal evolution: Roman Catholic doctrinal flip flops

The Only thing that made Mary special above all other women at the time, Was that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, chose her to come into the world through her womb. ( He had to choose someone, who was virtuous, and in the line of David) She had to have sin in her life, because it is written For all have sinned, Mary is not excluded from this. It is written that only Jesus NEVER sinned at all, that only Jesus was PERFECT (Birth to death.)

Mary is Blessed above all women, because she was the one that Jesus Christ chose to come into the world as a human. To say or think Mary is Blessed for any other reason is False and is a lie to cause people's eyes to come away from Jesus and toward the mere vessel that brought Jesus into the World. That particular Manger is Blessed above all mangers as well, for bringing the Son of God into the World, Do we pray to the manger, or make statues of the manger, or put the manger on a pedestal?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 
T

Tintin

Guest
I think the Catholic church would of been better off if the really listen to Mary.

These are the last recorded words of Mary referring to Jesus.

5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.
Oooh, touche. :)
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
48
much too much presuming and just saying going on - give over and come home now - wincam
There are three kinds of people in the world.
Those who believe the Word of God and what it teaches
Those who believe parts of the Word of God and what it teaches
and Those who do not believe it at all.

The Word of God teaches. For all have sinned. You are either one who believes that Word or you believe men who teach otherwise.
The Word of God teaches. Jesus had siblings. You are either one who believes that Word or you believe men who teach otherwise.
The Word of God teaches. Pray to the Father. You are either one who believes that Word or you believe men who teach you to pray to others.
The Word of God teaches. If you love Father or mother more than me, you are not worthy of Jesus. You either believe that Word, or you believe people who teach to Love Mary, even above Jesus. (how many hail Jesus' do you say?)
The Word of God teaches. Mary is Blessed above all WOMEN. You either believe that Word or you believe people who teach she is blessed above all women AND men. Everyone.
And many, many, other such verses the Word of God teaches, which many catholic people do not believe.

i don't care what denomination you are, or what Church you belong to, or what Title you live under. Those who live and believe the Word of God {ALL OF IT} are they that will be chosen and everyone else left behind, regardless what sect you belong to, what denomination you belong to, what assembly you belong to, what Church you belong to, what group you belong to, what _________ you belong to, or classify yourself to be.
Those who live by and do what the Word of God teaches and instructs will be accepted by Him. So you have been warned.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
48
Face it, wincam. You're on the losing end of this silly argument. Stop trying to lead people astray with your foolish notions.. Which God do you serve anyway? The christian God or the catholic god? Cuz catholics are NOT christians..
Please be careful in your wording blue_ladybug. Anyone who professes Jesus Christ to be the Son of God is a Christian. Now granted the catholics have many false doctrines that they hold on to, and we are to love them. But to say they are not Christian, when they profess Jesus Christ to be the Son of God, is not right.
Remember the Scriptures that speak about a man casting out demons in the name of Jesus Christ and the Disciples wanted to forbid him because he was not a follower of Jesus Christ. What did Jesus tell them "Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me" Catholics have been known to perform miracles in the name of Jesus Christ, and they do not speak evil of Jesus Christ at all. Yes they are deceived and tricked by satan to put Mary, a mere woman, above all others, and put her on a pedestal. and they believe many false doctrines. But there are just as many false doctrines floating around on the protestant side as well. One thing the Catholics have that the Protestants do not have is unity. You are either Catholic or your not. But the Protestants are divided into over 120+ denominations, and can't seem to agree on anything at all. Catholics are not divided, like Protestants are.

Love you all.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
48
I have reported wincam..... I welcome others to do so as well.
........................
i don't understand why someone would report him. Has he broken some kind of rule of CC? It seems to me, he seems to really believe these things that he is saying, and it would behoove us to try as best we can to show him relevant Scriptures to try to show him where Scriptures says he is wrong. Catholics firmly believe the false doctrines that they believe in, therefore we should try to reach them with Love and kindness, even as Jesus would do. If he has broken some kind of CC Rule then report that, but as far as i can tell he has done that, i could be wrong though, just my opinion.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
48
Sorry, i have done it again, i am responding to posts that are 4 months old. woe is me. sorry folks.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
4,216
1,179
113
Philippines Age 40
You're right, the only omniscient person is God. Let me quote scripture for a second (Catholics DO read the Bible, ya know :p) -

"I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in Heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance." (Luke 15:7)

Now, how can there be joy in heaven if the residents aren't at least somewhat aware of what is going on on earth? How will they know that a sinner has repented if they are 'locked in Heaven', so to speak?

Also, in Revelation 8, it says "He [an angel] was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones in Heaven". This, of course, points out that people in Heaven pray. Why is it so ludicrous to think that they couldn't pray upon our intercession?

May I pose a question? Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you, or prayed for a friend? Did you feel as though you were afraid of God to the point that you needed to approach Him with backup? James 5:16 says "The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful." There is no doubt that Heaven contains nothing but righteous people, so wouldn't it make sense to ask souls with 'powerful prayers' to intercede for you?
Asking friends who can hear me and who are also sinners for back up is different than asking dead people whom we are not even sure if they can hear us. I don't ask friends to pray for me because I am afraid to talk to God directly. Unlike when you ask Mary to pray for you because you think she is as holy as God and surely your prayer will be answered. We should only pray to God and praying to Mary makes her God but she is not.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,416
2,489
113
1. DiscipleDave, please stop being so polite. This is the Bible Discussion Forum... you're really setting a bad example.

2. God_Guy, I don't hate Catholics, I just disagree with many of the doctrines of your church. Nonetheless, in good Protestant tradition... I have to say something snarky about the pope.

3. Christmas is now over... over....over... so now... "every idiot who goes about with a 'Merry Christmas' on his lips should be boiled with his own pudding, and buried with a stake of holly through his heart.”

Cheers.

:)
 
D

Depleted

Guest
Ok, some people here seem to be determined to misquote the Catholic faith, be it by accident or on purpose. . . hear me out here.

Just because Mary called God her 'Saviour' doesn't mean that she was 'saved' in the same context as everyone else. An analogy to help you - you're going for a walk, and there's a big ditch up ahead, but you don't see it. If you fall in the ditch and someone pulls you out, then that person has 'saved' you from the ditch. However, if that same person warns you about the ditch before you even fall in, they have still 'saved' you from the ditch, they just did it in a slightly different manner. Now, presuming that the ditch represents sin, we all fall into the ditch before we are pulled out by Jesus. However, Mary was 'saved' from sin before she could fall into it. Clear as mud?

But what about all the scripture verses that condemn the entire world to sin? 1 John 1:8 says "If we [man] say 'We are without sin', we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." In other words, humanity is made up of only sinners. However, Jesus was fully human, there is no disputing that, yet He was without sin. He was an exception to the rule, and Mary was as well. We can see as much because of the greeting from the angel Gabriel.

Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). This was obviously not the standard greeting, as Mary was "greatly troubled at what was said, and pondered what sort of greeting this might be" (Luke 1:29). God had replaced her name with 'full of grace'. Now, every time a person's name is changed in the Bible, it affirms a permanent change within that character (Abraham, Sarah, Israel, etc.). With Mary, God was 'sealing the deal' on His great plan for Mary.

The Greek word that Gabriel used to describe Mary literally translates as "she who has been graced". The word 'graced' in the tense that it is used in, refers to a past action that will continue to exist in a future time. It means that an action has been completed, which has then resulted in a present state of being. Mary was always 'full of grace', and always will be. This isn't a 'Catholic' interpretation of this verse; this is systematical translation from Greek to English, nothing more and nothing less. It's a little confusing, but hopefully you understand what I'm saying.

Mary is sometimes referred to as the "New Eve" (see https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/6-biblical-reasons-mary-new-eve-deacon-mike-chesley if you want an explanation). God has made several Covenants with His people throughout the duration of the Bible, and in every instance, the "New Covenant" has always been more perfect, more pure than the "Old Covenant". Applying this knowledge to Mary's situation, it is impossible for Mary to be created in sin, because Eve was created without sin. Yes, Eve did sin, but she was not born into the world with the stain of Original Sin on her soul. So how is it that Mary, the New Eve, who is meant to be far more perfect and far more pure in her existence than the one before her, could be created in sin? It just doesn't make sense.

Also, just to clarify - Catholics do not worship Mary. We recognize her state of grace, and the position given to her by God as the mother of Jesus. One of the most common Catholic prayers, the Hail Mary, is not a prayer to Mary, but a plea asking Mary to pray for us, to intercede on our behalf.

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death."

Nowhere in that prayer are we praying to Mary; we are asking Mary to pray for us, because we sinners need as much help as we can get.

I hope some of you can draw some conclusions from this. I understand that your beliefs may not change overnight, but know that we are all called to love one another, and it is not very loving to make blind accusations against the Catholic faith. Just because you don't know the answer doesn't make the accusation justified.

There are several people here that are saying downright nasty things about the Catholic faith, and all they are doing is spreading needless hate. Do not condemn another person's beliefs without first making an effort to understand them. Every single comment I have read thus far bashing Catholics seems to be a conclusion that has been jumped to, an assessment that has been made without full knowledge or consideration of the facts. The Catholic faith, although difficult, is not sacrilegious, born from the devil, or the cesspool full of filth that many people seem convinced to make it out to be. You don't have to agree with everything it teaches, but please don't go around spreading unwarranted hate just because you disagree. I'm fairly certain that whatever faith you devote your life to doesn't condone malicious words.
Ya know? When guy who just joined goes back 100 pages or more to whip out an old post, I'm not really hearing him out. I'm immediately suspect that wincam has another new username.

(Wincam! That's who I keep thinking 88 is! lol)