Moving on from the basics Heb 6:1-3

[John146]

So in no way does the original post apply to you or any Christian? And no part of Hebrews or James was meant for any Christian but only unsaved Jews. So there is no part of Hebrews or James that can be applied to any Christians and is no use to us at all?

Certainly, we can glean truths from any portion of God's word. We need to study and read all of it, but with the basic understanding to whom is the portion of scripture written to, to whom does the doctrine apply? If I read a portion of scripture written specifically to the Jews, I need to study it and ask God what he wants me to learn from it. I also understand that if there are directions, doctrines, in that portion of scripture, I should take heed to the audience to whom it was written.

We understand that the building of the ark was written specifically for Noah. We are not to obey that portion of scripture. But, we need to ask ourselves, what does God want me to learn from this scripture?

Again, are Christians always healed when applying the James scripture? If not, why? Notice it states, "Shall save the sick", not maybe, not might, but shall.

 

[Burn1986]

Certainly, we can glean truths from any portion of God's word. We need to study and read all of it, but with the basic understanding to whom is the portion of scripture written to, to whom does the doctrine apply? If I read a portion of scripture written specifically to the Jews, I need to study it and ask God what he wants me to learn from it. I also understand that if there are directions, doctrines, in that portion of scripture, I should take heed to the audience to whom it was written.

We understand that the building of the ark was written specifically for Noah. We are not to obey that portion of scripture. But, we need to ask ourselves, what does God want me to learn from this scripture?

Again, are Christians always healed when applying the James scripture? If not, why? Notice it states, "Shall save the sick", not maybe, not might, but shall.

Scripture is not always a formula. Jesus also spoke in parables and generalities which frustrated the Pharisees because they needed specifics and would try and dissect scripture to the nth degree. Yes, it helps to have some background and knowledge of the context, but it’s important to have Holy Spirit discernment and revelation of scripture as well.

 

[Evmur]

“So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NLT‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/116/heb.6.3.NLT

Man oh man. There it is. How many threads and arguments are there over salvation, baptism, eternity, elect/no -elect?! We need to move on!

but why is the church stuck? because ...

because we have not got these things straight, we can't build until the foundation is right, solid.

The reason why dearly beloved Christians, even leaders undergo struggle, failure, sorrow and griefs is because their foundation truths are faulty. How often I have heard "we don't care about theology" don't you?

Christ is our foundation, we can build upon that. But certain wise will come along and say "ah but we must do this and we must do that ... what we are is important [as in vital] also"

Well God will keep us there until we get it right.

 

[Evmur]

Matthew Henrys Commentary (excerpt)

We have here the apostle's advice to the Hebrews—that they would grow up from a state of childhood to the fullness of the stature of the new man in Christ. He declares his readiness to assist them all he could in their spiritual progress; and, for their greater encouragement, he puts himself with them: Let us go on. Here observe, In order to their growth, Christians must leave the principles of the doctrine of Christ. How must they leave them? They must not lose them, they must not despise them, they must not forget them. They must lay them up in their hearts, and lay them as the foundation of all their profession and expectation; but they must not rest and stay in them, they must not be always laying the foundation, they must go on, and build upon it.

(here)

Hebrews 6 Bible Commentary - Matthew Henry (concise)

Verses 1 through 8 are discussing what the Apostle Paul addressed in 1 Corinthians, Chapter 3:

1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

The Author of Hebrews was (as was Paul) addressing new believers to begin to grown in their walk with Christ. To begin to mature and be able to feast on the spiritual understanding of Scripture which comes through the teachings of the indwelling Holy Spirit. New believers are like new babies, empty of knowledge and understanding. As they grow and mature, they learn to seek the spiritual understanding of Scripture to truly feast on the Word of God.

that's good ... also when he says "let us go on" and so putting himself among them he is showing true leadership for the prophet must stay among the people ... not go off in a huff.

 

[Burn1986]

but why is the church stuck? because ...

because we have not got these things straight, we can't build until the foundation is right, solid.

The reason why dearly beloved Christians, even leaders undergo struggle, failure, sorrow and griefs is because their foundation truths are faulty. How often I have heard "we don't care about theology" don't you?

Christ is our foundation, we can build upon that. But certain wise will come along and say "ah but we must do this and we must do that ... what we are is important [as in vital] also"

Well God will keep us there until we get it right.

At no point am I saying to abandon sound teaching or a foundation. And I don’t feel these scriptures from Paul say that either.

(Granted this is a public chat that anyone can interact on, whether Christian or not. So you may have some people who aren’t saved or desire God at all, but they know the Bible inside and out as more of a hobby. So, those posters will going back and forth on authenticity of Jesus, validity of scripture, purely historic and base study of scripture, and every rabbit trail and doctrine you can dream up. So I have to take that into account as well.)

 

[Evmur]

At no point am I saying to abandon sound teaching or a foundation. And I don’t feel these scriptures from Paul say that either.

(Granted this is a public chat that anyone can interact on, whether Christian or not. So you may have some people who aren’t saved or desire God at all, but they know the Bible inside and out as more of a hobby. So, those posters will going back and forth on authenticity of Jesus, validity of scripture, purely historic and base study of scripture, and every rabbit trail and doctrine you can dream up. So I have to take that into account as well.)

I am not criticising you, I'm telling you why the church is stuck. The writer of Hebrews was saying that the church was stuck, they were stuck on the basic doctrines.

God will not move His people forward until they get the basics, the foundation right and settled in their mind.

 

[John146]

Scripture is not always a formula. Jesus also spoke in parables and generalities which frustrated the Pharisees because they needed specifics and would try and dissect scripture to the nth degree. Yes, it helps to have some background and knowledge of the context, but it’s important to have Holy Spirit discernment and revelation of scripture as well.

James 5 is not a parable nor some mysterious writing. It is stated as a literal fact. If there is someone sick among you, if so, then do this...and if you do this...the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up. One must manipulate the clear meaning of scripture in order to fit it for the body of Christ, or one should leave it alone for the intended audience which is the twelve tribes scattered abroad. The body of Christ is not the twelve tribes, nowhere, no how.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

 

[Burn1986]

James 5 is not a parable nor some mysterious writing. It is stated as a literal fact. If there is someone sick among you, if so, then do this...and if you do this...the prayer of faith shall save the sick and the Lord shall raise him up. One must manipulate the clear meaning of scripture in order to fit it for the body of Christ, or one should leave it alone for the intended audience which is the twelve tribes scattered abroad. The body of Christ is not the twelve tribes, nowhere, no how.

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

John, to me this is to the Christians (elders of the church) to have a sick person come before the Christian elders of the church and they would lay hands on them and pray over them. At no point in history, have the Jews ever been called the church or met in a church, or elders, or laying on hands. I don’t know what else to tell you. Hebrews and James were meant for Christians back then and us today. If you don’t want to believe that then you will have to answer for yourself. I 100% disagree with your assessment.

 

[Burn1986]

I am not criticising you, I'm telling you why the church is stuck. The writer of Hebrews was saying that the church was stuck, they were stuck on the basic doctrines.

God will not move His people forward until they get the basics, the foundation right and settled in their mind.

Mmm I see your point but I disagree with the last part.

 

[John146]

John, to me this is to the Christians (elders of the church) to have a sick person come before the Christian elders of the church and they would lay hands on them and pray over them. At no point in history, have the Jews ever been called the church or met in a church, or elders, or laying on hands. I don’t know what else to tell you. Hebrews and James were meant for Christians back then and us today. If you don’t want to believe that then you will have to answer for yourself. I 100% disagree with your assessment.

If you disagree with my assessment, then why aren't people healed every time in this manner today? When elders of the church pray over the sick? Btw, the people of Israel were called the church back when they were in the wilderness with Moses. Church simply means congregation.

Acts 7:
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

 

[John146]

John, to me this is to the Christians (elders of the church) to have a sick person come before the Christian elders of the church and they would lay hands on them and pray over them. At no point in history, have the Jews ever been called the church or met in a church, or elders, or laying on hands. I don’t know what else to tell you. Hebrews and James were meant for Christians back then and us today. If you don’t want to believe that then you will have to answer for yourself. I 100% disagree with your assessment.

Let me give you a real-life example that had a very sad ending. I heard this true story from a preacher I listen to often.

There was a woman whose husband was diagnosed with cancer and was not doing well. She went to her pastor and asked him to pray. The pastor in turn, like he should, got all the deacons and elders of the church to start praying for this woman’s husband, but the man’s condition got worse. The pastor told the woman to cling to John 14:13-14, “And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye ask anything in my name, I will do it.” So, they kept praying, but over the weeks the husband kept getting worse. The cancer was not going away, but spreading to other parts of his body. So, the elders prayed over the man anointing him with oil as instructed in James 5:14-15…But the husband’s cancer got worse and he eventually passed away. The woman was heart broken at his death, and here’s what the pastor told her, “You must not have had enough faith in the Lord to heal your husband.” Wow! He placed the blame on her for not having enough faith. She concluded that the bible is a lie and cannot be trusted and her faith was overthrown.

James is not written to the body of Christ, but to the twelve tribes scattered abroad. The term "twelve tribes" is never, never, never a reference to the body of Christ nor to Jewish believers. Ever. The term "twelve tribes" is always a reference to the nation of Israel as a whole. Check every reference from Genesis to Revelation. I can post them all if you'd like. A failure to rightly divide the word of truth can have serious consequences.

 

[John146]

How can you be so blind? They are written to and for the Church -- Jews and Gentiles in ONE BODY.

Do you seriously believe that especially Hebrews is written to unbelievers? Looks like you have not even read this epistle.

See post #51

 

[Burn1986]

Hmm, I don’t know why it didn’t work. But they did what it mentions to do in scripture. I’ve seen miracles in my own life and in others but I’m not sure why some things happen and people die.

 

[Evmur]

Mmm I see your point but I disagree with the last part.

well He has the job of providing for the needs of that hungry one without it being an upset to the others [who are just as precious in His sight]

The unity of the brethren is HUGE with God. but if we become impatient with our brethren and if we cause hurt and end up going off in a huff .... we hurt our own selves in the process. It is difficult to be AFIRE for the Lord when nobody else is.

God wants to bring everyone into the blessing together. Now am I addressing your post or not?

 

[John146]

Hmm, I don’t know why it didn’t work. But they did what it mentions to do in scripture. I’ve seen miracles in my own life and in others but I’m not sure why some things happen and people die.

Either God’s a liar or the body of Christ is not the audience. I’m going with choice B.

 

[Burn1986]

Either God’s a liar or the body of Christ is not the audience. I’m going with choice B.

It probably won’t help, but man, I’m sorry all that happened

 

[p_rehbein]

If you disagree with my assessment, then why aren't people healed every time in this manner today? When elders of the church pray over the sick?

Faith healing still occurs today. However, there are various reasons why one, some who are prayed over are not healed. The one being prayed over must believe, as well as all of those praying over must believe that the person can be healed.

I have personally seen three instances of faith healing in my church back in Alabama, and was once healed myself when I was 13 years old.

(excerpt)

Where are we?
As one of the chief leaders in the church at Jerusalem, James wrote from that city prior to the meeting of the Jerusalem Council, which Luke recorded in Acts 15. At that council, James, along with Peter and Paul, affirmed the decision to take the gospel message to the Gentiles. This council met in AD 49, meaning James likely wrote his letter in AD 45–48. Such a significant event as the Jerusalem Council warranted comment from James, as he was writing to a Jewish Christian audience. But James made no mention of Gentile Christians at all, making an early date for the letter most likely. In fact, it was likely the first New Testament book written.

(here)

Book of James Overview - Insight for Living Ministries

James was writing to Christian Jews from all I read in Scripture. Non christian Jews did not believe in Jesus as the promised Messiah, so why write such a letter to them?

 

[John146]

James was writing to Christian Jews from all I read in Scripture. Non christian Jews did not believe in Jesus as the promised Messiah, so why write such a letter to them?

That's the entire point of the book of James. James is writing to open their eyes to their coming Messiah. It will be a pivotal message for the twelve tribes in the last days during the tribulation. They missed out on him the first time. It is obvious that at least some of the audience had not received the word and their souls are not saved.

James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

 

[hornetguy]

Hmm, I don’t know why it didn’t work. But they did what it mentions to do in scripture. I’ve seen miracles in my own life and in others but I’m not sure why some things happen and people die.

Because we live in a fallen world... if every person that believers prayed over was healed, then very few people would ever die.
That was not a "get out of jail free" card... it was instructions about how to go about petitioning God for miraculous intervention.
I have seen miraculous healings of illness as well, but I've also seen deaths... doesn't shake my faith.

 

[homwardbound]

“So let us stop going over the basic teachings about Christ again and again. Let us go on instead and become mature in our understanding. Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds and placing our faith in God. You don’t need further instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And so, God willing, we will move forward to further understanding.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6‬:‭1‬-‭3‬ ‭NLT‬‬
https://bible.com/bible/116/heb.6.3.NLT

Man oh man. There it is. How many threads and arguments are there over salvation, baptism, eternity, elect/no -elect?! We need to move on!

therefore, between God and you in Spirit and Truth ask God to permit this
I remember that day, I read Hebrews 5:12- Chapter 6. I had red those scriptures a zillion times before, and then one day I read verse three of Chapter 6 again, and then asked and began to see new in the done work of God for me to move forward in it.

Finalizing truth in me for me by God to me, what new view, I began to see new in this love and mercy of Son given me and all others too, as in 1 John2:1-4. Luke 21:14-15, Matt 10:16-20. This love floored me, floors me to this day. I turned to God and said to God, okay you forgave me, now what?
Trust me, that I have taken all sin out of the way for you and all others too in my Son on that cross, so we can have a relationship of love and mercy to learn new in and willingly do what is right, by my Son, Jesus, for you to live new in me and me through you.
I said, no more work from me? That is correct it is done in Son for you to walk new, me doing my Son's done work of love and mercy through you, to all.

That is easy, to accept, believe and reside in it, isn't it? Not really, only if you be willing as my Son was in the Garden of Gethsemane. Who asked me, is there any other way Father? Then My Son ended it with
"nevertheless not my will Father, but your will be done" and off to the cross willingly he went, to death he went, willingly. He could have fought, and did not. And today is risen and will never go to death ever again, that is done once and for us all (Hebrews 10:10) Thank you Lord!
Therefore, we the people: if, we are willing also, to go through whatever we go through here on earth first in trust to God to get us through it or not?
I am learning this, to be thankful in all things good or bad that happen to me to this day, forever in trust to the King of Kings, Father and Son as Won (One)
thanking the Lord for the done work of Son, the new has come as I look back to the cross to cross over with the risen Son, as I see God gives this free of charge forever
Wow. woe is me Isaiah 6:1-7