Music in Church?
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Goes to show me that online might not be worth engaging in to be quite truthful, nothing but arguments and divisions, I rarely change my mind anymore, and no one else changes theirs, why bother?
I'll be spending more of my time at recipe forums, and my husband so approved! lol
Ah... they do have that same onesupmanship there too (as to whom can cook better then whom) but its less nasty
I dont know what reason there is to partake of forums any longer, this is becoming a much larger question in my mind
I'll be spending more of my time at recipe forums, and my husband so approved! lol
Ah... they do have that same onesupmanship there too (as to whom can cook better then whom) but its less nasty
I dont know what reason there is to partake of forums any longer, this is becoming a much larger question in my mind
Pleasing to God according to whom? Who defines obedience?
Does God bless and save souls in churches with musical instruments? Are souls blessed and drawn closer to Christ by musical instruments?
You guys are not going to convince anyone that you are right. Your credibility was destroyed long ago when you waffled on the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and making salvation absolutely dependent on water baptism. Not to mention the eternal security of the believer in Christ. You guys talk about grace but it is hard to find any evidence that you know and have received biblically defined grace that only God can provide.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Does God bless and save souls in churches with musical instruments? Are souls blessed and drawn closer to Christ by musical instruments?
You guys are not going to convince anyone that you are right. Your credibility was destroyed long ago when you waffled on the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit and making salvation absolutely dependent on water baptism. Not to mention the eternal security of the believer in Christ. You guys talk about grace but it is hard to find any evidence that you know and have received biblically defined grace that only God can provide.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Again, that's just an assertion on your part. The sources you cited don't support your view. It would be hard to find a source that directly addresses that. I did ask a retired Greek professor who'd been reading Greek for decades about it. His understanding of the language is that individuals taking turns singing solos could also be described with the language in the passage.
If there are 20 people, and each sings a psalm, in turn, then they fulfill the requirement.
You are treating the passage as if it is something that each individual must obey every time there is a church gathering. The passage doesn't even specify a church meeting or say that every believer has to do this every time.
Sorry, bro. The word translated 'yourselves' is plural. I've got an interlinear open in another tab.
Taking turns singing solos fits the bill.
But notice if you apply this legalistic reasoning that if it says sing, it can't mean something else, to listening, then you get a problem. Because we are to go to church and 'exhort one another.' So if we use your 'logic' then we are only allowed to exhort at church, but no one is allowed to listen to what other people are saying. Of course, there are scriptures that would imply that this interpretation is wrong. But the ones I'm thinking of have to do with prophecy, and they go against your church tradtion.
Now prove that Heautou cannot. The Greek expert I conferred with disagreed.
So you think if they aren't weeping at the same time, they aren't weeping? Or if they aren't saying within themselves at exactly the same time, they aren't saying wthin themselves?
It sounds like you are deadest on arriving at a certain conclusion when you read the Bible rather than approaching the Bible with an intention to study and learn what it says, at least on this issue.
{quote]
Heautou carries the idea of a collective action...not one weeps now and another weeps later and another weeps at some other time. Heautou in Eph 5:19 is collective in action...all sing collectively together, not one singing now, one singing later and another singing at some other time.
(Gene Frost)[/quote]
Are you quoting? You aren't using quotation marks, so I can't tell if you are citing or quoting or what.
Ephesians and Colossians speak of 'speaking to yourselves' in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. So those verses don't mention singing either. Why do you allow singing in church at all? If something has to be specifically authorized in New Testament scripture (post Pentecost? Pre-book-of Revelation?) why allow any singing?
Your whole argument is based on the idea that something isn't allowed if it is not specifically authorized. (of course, suff your church does gets a free pass.) Where does New Testament scripture specifically authorize that doctrine? Or are you relying on Nadab and Abihu in the Old Testament, while forbidding going to the OT to legitimize instrumental music?
That's because every 'one' of you hath a psalm. The passage is about individual activities. Do you think Paul is saying they should all speak in tongues at the same time? Btw, do you think the church should allow either scenario or just have the preacher preach?
You are the one creating the contradiction where it doesn't exist by assuming.
1. Ephesians 5 is exclusively about congregational singing.
2. That if Ephesians 5 is about or allows for congregational singing, that another verse can't allow for solos.
I get it. You probably go to a church that doesn't have solos and may teach against them. And you probably think your church has a good handle on the truth unlike other churches, and it's hard for you to think your church or church experience can be wrong or not portray the whole reality of New Testament church experience. That approach keeps a lot of people from believing and accepting what the Bible teaches on a number of issues.
Why would milk and peanuts be forbidden? You do know that Jews ate lamb or goat for the Passover don't you, along with other food. We don't take peanuts to remember the Lord's body, but why would it be a sin to eat them together during the love feast?
We could ask the team who found that wood structure up on Ararat if there was any other wood. If Noah hammered on a cedar peg for a coat hanger, I wouldn't consider that a violation if he'd built the ark according to God's specs. Since God doesn't rebuke or punish Noah for violating his instructions, this isn't really a good example.
But I notice you feel free to go to the OT for this sort of thing and not for musical instruments. Why is that? You use the OT if it supports your church tradition, but not if it contradicts it.
If there are 20 people, and each sings a psalm, in turn, then they fulfill the requirement.
You are treating the passage as if it is something that each individual must obey every time there is a church gathering. The passage doesn't even specify a church meeting or say that every believer has to do this every time.
Sorry, bro. The word translated 'yourselves' is plural. I've got an interlinear open in another tab.
Taking turns singing solos fits the bill.
But notice if you apply this legalistic reasoning that if it says sing, it can't mean something else, to listening, then you get a problem. Because we are to go to church and 'exhort one another.' So if we use your 'logic' then we are only allowed to exhort at church, but no one is allowed to listen to what other people are saying. Of course, there are scriptures that would imply that this interpretation is wrong. But the ones I'm thinking of have to do with prophecy, and they go against your church tradtion.
Now prove that Heautou cannot. The Greek expert I conferred with disagreed.
So you think if they aren't weeping at the same time, they aren't weeping? Or if they aren't saying within themselves at exactly the same time, they aren't saying wthin themselves?
It sounds like you are deadest on arriving at a certain conclusion when you read the Bible rather than approaching the Bible with an intention to study and learn what it says, at least on this issue.
{quote]
Heautou carries the idea of a collective action...not one weeps now and another weeps later and another weeps at some other time. Heautou in Eph 5:19 is collective in action...all sing collectively together, not one singing now, one singing later and another singing at some other time.
(Gene Frost)[/quote]
Are you quoting? You aren't using quotation marks, so I can't tell if you are citing or quoting or what.
Ephesians and Colossians speak of 'speaking to yourselves' in psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs. So those verses don't mention singing either. Why do you allow singing in church at all? If something has to be specifically authorized in New Testament scripture (post Pentecost? Pre-book-of Revelation?) why allow any singing?
Your whole argument is based on the idea that something isn't allowed if it is not specifically authorized. (of course, suff your church does gets a free pass.) Where does New Testament scripture specifically authorize that doctrine? Or are you relying on Nadab and Abihu in the Old Testament, while forbidding going to the OT to legitimize instrumental music?
That's because every 'one' of you hath a psalm. The passage is about individual activities. Do you think Paul is saying they should all speak in tongues at the same time? Btw, do you think the church should allow either scenario or just have the preacher preach?
You are the one creating the contradiction where it doesn't exist by assuming.
1. Ephesians 5 is exclusively about congregational singing.
2. That if Ephesians 5 is about or allows for congregational singing, that another verse can't allow for solos.
I get it. You probably go to a church that doesn't have solos and may teach against them. And you probably think your church has a good handle on the truth unlike other churches, and it's hard for you to think your church or church experience can be wrong or not portray the whole reality of New Testament church experience. That approach keeps a lot of people from believing and accepting what the Bible teaches on a number of issues.
Why would milk and peanuts be forbidden? You do know that Jews ate lamb or goat for the Passover don't you, along with other food. We don't take peanuts to remember the Lord's body, but why would it be a sin to eat them together during the love feast?
We could ask the team who found that wood structure up on Ararat if there was any other wood. If Noah hammered on a cedar peg for a coat hanger, I wouldn't consider that a violation if he'd built the ark according to God's specs. Since God doesn't rebuke or punish Noah for violating his instructions, this isn't really a good example.
But I notice you feel free to go to the OT for this sort of thing and not for musical instruments. Why is that? You use the OT if it supports your church tradition, but not if it contradicts it.
Oh but the end result of that kind of oneupsmanship is better recipes and cooking all around! I am AAAAAAAALL for that! 
So... when is dinner?
So... when is dinner?
Ha! Ya missed a good one (though I didnt cook it Texas road house did) hubby brought it home lol
I hear ya, that kind of competition will only make our meals better and my husband both fat and happier.
He would love it if I dropped the christian forums and go to the cooking forums, he believes he benefits from the other because Im always saying "hold on hon, let me just post this one post real quick" (he is always hearing that) so he playfully threatens to get a screen name and tell everyone at the board that Im not being subject to him lol By that he means when he snaps his fingers and jokes around for me to get with his program (second or third helpings LOL)
I can make you cookies Lynx, you just say the word and I'll make you a batch and send them out special for you, you like?
LOL
I wouldnt use cream cheese I dont think it would survive the trip, although I dont believe that is in my husbands recipe but they are still pretty good (says him).
I was never a whoopie pie person
Now, I would send them without any trades at all, and because you know fresh bread doesnt last that long
Lynx you make bread?! You bake?
Because I can send you a portion of my sanfrancisco sour dough starter, I have been feeding it for well over 6 months and its doing great.
I even have various vinegar mothers if you are interested if you like to make your own vinegars. I love doing that sort of stuff and I have way too many of them.
I'll send ya a care package lol Lots of weird stuff in a box hows that? lol
I was never a whoopie pie person
Now, I would send them without any trades at all, and because you know fresh bread doesnt last that long
Lynx you make bread?! You bake?
Because I can send you a portion of my sanfrancisco sour dough starter, I have been feeding it for well over 6 months and its doing great.
I even have various vinegar mothers if you are interested if you like to make your own vinegars. I love doing that sort of stuff and I have way too many of them.
I'll send ya a care package lol Lots of weird stuff in a box hows that? lol
No thanks. I have my own starter in the fridge and I have no interest in making vinegar. But yes, I make sourdough bread. Usually in large (14-ish loaf) batches, then I freeze most of it. I live on the stuff. I haven't bought store "bread" in years. The "bread" in the store is spongy, floppy, gummy junk. Even the whole wheat "bread" has no crumb at all, much less a good crumb. I also make bread for various church bake sales and every Christmas I bake up a big lot to give to certain people at church who have said they like my bread.
The only way we could get this thread back on topic would be to bring up baking beans and tie in flatulence as "tooting" in church...
The only way we could get this thread back on topic would be to bring up baking beans and tie in flatulence as "tooting" in church...