Must all dispensationalists believe in cessation of miracles?
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I see Acts as an account of the acts of the early apostles who lived lives worthy of emulation. In Acts 15 we see that Peter, like Paul in the epistles, believed Jews were saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. The book also show Paul baptizing Gentiles.
I do not see the gospel changing in the book and I think would anathemize that based on Galatians 1.
I do not see the gospel changing in the book and I think would anathemize that based on Galatians 1.
I was into MAD at one time. Anyhow I am 'dispensational' but believe the gifts are today except the Offices of Prophets and Apostles (sorry NAR fans). Dispensational distinctives are a literal approach to Scripture and a distinction between Israel and the Church. From a literal approach I do not see the cessation of gifts until Christ's return. Their argument is built on raw logic without Scripture. As far as cessation of the Offices of Apotles and Prophets! I would appeal to...
Hebrews 1:1-2 NKJV
[1] God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, [2] has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Acts 1:21-22 NKJV
[21] "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, [22] beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
These self appointed Prophets and falsely appointed Apostles are not to be heeded.
Hebrews 1:1-2 NKJV
[1] God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, [2] has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Acts 1:21-22 NKJV
[21] "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, [22] beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."
These self appointed Prophets and falsely appointed Apostles are not to be heeded.
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When u used the term worthy of emulation, I can see that u view the early acts church as a model to follow. Yeah many people think like that.
For me, acts is a story of how the Jews rejected their messiah, and how we gentiles are now included in the good news. The book of romans, esp chapters 9-11 made more sense from this perspective.
For me, acts is a story of how the Jews rejected their messiah, and how we gentiles are now included in the good news. The book of romans, esp chapters 9-11 made more sense from this perspective.
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The prophetic or all gifts are for anyone baptised in the Holy Spirit.
Most of the visions and revelations I have experienced cannot be shared in an enviroment of mocking and put down.
I used to flow heavily in the gifts during the charismatic renewal and on into the 80's.
Not so much now as the church apostasy is a wet log.
Nar is to me an attempt at reviving that once blazing fire.
In the mid 90's and on into the early mil there were pockets of God moving.
It started in argentina in the early 90s.
That ride was awesome. I saw many visions and dreams as well as my own fire restored.
The brownsville revival was probably the biggest in modern history.
Like any revival most are oblivious or end up attacking it.
It is just the way it is.
So most "do without"
Never reach a full potential or destiny.
All christian walk is/was designed around the "mantle",or anointing/baptism in the Holy Spirit.
God's pattern.
Outside that pattern we see what we see today.
Powerless christianity,where the gifts are not only undesirable but a point of put down and mockery.
A few phonies are a great incubator and become the yardstick for judging heavens equipping.
It really seems impossible that human apathy could so partner with the enemy of heaven to put believers into a deep sleep.
Is it a surprise there is no power in sleep and apathy?
Believers powerfully DEFENDING it????
Wow
Most of the visions and revelations I have experienced cannot be shared in an enviroment of mocking and put down.
I used to flow heavily in the gifts during the charismatic renewal and on into the 80's.
Not so much now as the church apostasy is a wet log.
Nar is to me an attempt at reviving that once blazing fire.
In the mid 90's and on into the early mil there were pockets of God moving.
It started in argentina in the early 90s.
That ride was awesome. I saw many visions and dreams as well as my own fire restored.
The brownsville revival was probably the biggest in modern history.
Like any revival most are oblivious or end up attacking it.
It is just the way it is.
So most "do without"
Never reach a full potential or destiny.
All christian walk is/was designed around the "mantle",or anointing/baptism in the Holy Spirit.
God's pattern.
Outside that pattern we see what we see today.
Powerless christianity,where the gifts are not only undesirable but a point of put down and mockery.
A few phonies are a great incubator and become the yardstick for judging heavens equipping.
It really seems impossible that human apathy could so partner with the enemy of heaven to put believers into a deep sleep.
Is it a surprise there is no power in sleep and apathy?
Believers powerfully DEFENDING it????
Wow
The Lord did not say only His apostles would be able to do the works that He did; the Lord said "He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father."
So if you believe the Word, you will then not make up an excuse (a lie), for why we today do not see any of the miracles/works and greater works/miracles that Christ did.
If the Word be true, (and it is), then it is the Christian body today, (including from the first century AD) who is at fault, and do not believe on Christ.
This believing on Him is not the mental ascension of believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but instead is believing in/on Christ's Way of love, truth, justice, humility, and other virtues.
These virtures are the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23, which I see many of us on this forum, including myself, often do not display in our postings, but instead display many of the works of the flesh, hatred and envyings described in Galatians 5:20-21.
If we don't change and believe on Christ; I then think it safe to say that some of us will not be good trees that bring forth good fruit (Matthew 7:16-20).
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
So if you believe the Word, you will then not make up an excuse (a lie), for why we today do not see any of the miracles/works and greater works/miracles that Christ did.
If the Word be true, (and it is), then it is the Christian body today, (including from the first century AD) who is at fault, and do not believe on Christ.
This believing on Him is not the mental ascension of believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but instead is believing in/on Christ's Way of love, truth, justice, humility, and other virtues.
These virtures are the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23, which I see many of us on this forum, including myself, often do not display in our postings, but instead display many of the works of the flesh, hatred and envyings described in Galatians 5:20-21.
If we don't change and believe on Christ; I then think it safe to say that some of us will not be good trees that bring forth good fruit (Matthew 7:16-20).
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Let me ask you, when the Apostles and Prophets of old spoke, "Thus saith the Lord" their words were revelatory, true and as good as Scripture. What so called 'prophets' or 'apostles' today speak inspired Scripture where the Church is bound to obey? Actually those phony NAR prophets would have been stoned back in the old testament times giving their false prophecy over Todd Bentley where within a month he left his wife for the Church secretary. Those are 100% phonies and give Christians a bad name.
2 Corinthians 11:13-14 NKJV
[13] For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. [14] And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
2 Corinthians 11:13-14 NKJV
[13] For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. [14] And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
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I know this thread is a little old now, but I only joined this site recently and was looking around for any dispensational threads and found this one. As you might say, I am a full on 'dispy', but more the end-Acts flavour than Acts 2 or Acts 9/10. I've seen a few interesting comments in this thread, so I thought I'd throw in my perspective.
So, end-Acts (or 'Acts 28') dispensationalism, what's it all about?..
1. Its all about Israel.
Anyone reading the OT gets a clear indication that as well as being all about the coming messiah, it is also all about Israel. Other nations barely rate a mention, and then only second to Israel in the coming kingdom.
Since the fall of Adam, the bible has been forward looking to the future redeemer. And since Abraham and his family, the focus has been all about Israel as the chosen nation to be God's 'witness' to the world. Israel are to be a 'kingdom of priests' (Ex 19) and the coming redeemer will be THEIR messiah and THEIR king, to rule the nations. This is the yet future, EARTHLY, 'millennial kingdom'.
Many passages build on the picture of this 'day of rest' for the nation of Israel, and this was the hope of the the people of Israel in Jesus's day (for the messiah to bring RESTORATION to Israel), and still is today.
2. The gospels is not new teaching.
Along comes the NT and, apart from that dreaded 'blank page', it is really just a continuation of the OT. In the gospels we read of Jesus coming only 'to the lost sheep of the house of Israel' and telling his disciples to 'go not into the way of the Gentiles'. He did not come to preach to the world, he had come to preach to the nation of Israel. And in all that he said and did, even his rejection and crucifixion - it is all only what was already written or prophesied about in the OT. There is new clarity on old themes, but it is nothing new. Even the 'new covenant' proclaimed at the last supper is also not new teaching, it is foretold in Jer 31, and belongs to ISRAEL, not Gentiles! Israel are still in position #1.
3. Acts is not new teaching.
Israel rejected Jesus the first time. This was foretold and necessary for the 'one sacrifice for all' to be completed. But on the cross Jesus also prayed, 'father forgive them for they know not what they do'. The 'them' here is ISRAEL, and the book of Acts is the answer to that prayer in being a window of opportunity, a second chance, for Israel to accept Jesus as their messiah.
A careful reading of Acts, you can see the prime focus throughout is for Israel (first in Jerusalem and then to the dispersion) to repent and accept Jesus as their messiah. Many individuals were saved during that period, but the Jewish leadership continued to reject the message. Later as Gentiles come into the picture, Israel is still the prime objective and Gentile inclusion is mainly for the purpose 'to provoke them to jealousy' - an adrenaline shot to wake them up. Even Paul who was the 'apostle to the Gentiles' first goes to the synagogue in all the places he goes. The pattern is clear - new town, preach in the synagogue, get rejected, preach to the Gentiles, get chased out of town by the Jews. Even as late as Acts 28:20, Paul says "FOR THE HOPE OF ISRAEL I am bound with this chain". (It may be a stretch to some, but it is possible that the term 'apostle to the Gentiles' can mean 'to those (Jews) among the Gentiles' (ie. the dispersion). It certainly fits the pattern that Paul took.
Yet still, it is all OT prophecy. In Paul's address to Festus, he says (Acts 26) "..I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying NONE OTHER THINGS THAN THOSE WHICH THE PROPHETS AND MOSES DID SAY should come: that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."
And again in the closing verses of Acts, Paul in his final address to the Jewish leadership in Rome says (Acts 28) "..And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both OUT OF THE LAW OF MOSES, AND OUT OF THE PROPHETS, from morning till evening."
So in all, what he taught was all backed up from the Law and Prophets. And it needed to be for his credibility to the Jews. The people of Berea in ch 17 are evidence of this attitude, where "they .. SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES daily, WHETHER THOSE THINGS WERE SO. THEREFORE MANY OF THEM BELIEVED".
4. Miracles in Acts - why?
To the Jews, and from OT history, miracles are a sign of a prophet's credentials. The same applied to Jesus. You see this in the miracle of the lame man. When Jesus was criticised for forgiving the man's sins, he replied (Mat 9:6) "SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW that the Son of Man has AUTHORITY on earth to forgive sins, then He said to the paralytic, 'Arise, take up your bed..'". The miracle was his stamp of authority.
In the opening chapters of Acts we read of the disciples (Jews only at this point) receiving the holy spirit and immediately we see miracles taking place. Something new? Not really. This too is all OT prophecy. Peter explains this in Acts 2 "THIS IS THAT WIHCH WAS SPOKEN OF BY THE PROPHET JOEL, '..your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams... before the coming of the great and glorious day of the lord'". And the context of Joel?, it is all about Israel and its restoration.
Hebrews 6 provides an important clue. Here the writer (Paul) in criticising the Jews behaviour says, "..those who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the holy spirit, who have TASTED the goodness of God and THE POWERS OF THE COMING AGE..".
So there it is, the miraculous powers during Acts were a taste of the coming age, the millennial kingdom! (And so really belong to Israel). And not just some random thing which occurred because it was a good thing, but there is purpose to it.
5. And this will blow your socks off!
Now consider this..
In Acts 2 and 3 Peter addresses the crowds at Pentecost (a Jewish feast drawing pilgrim Jews from the dispersion) as "men of Israel" and "brothers". And in v3:19 saying: "REPENT, then, and turn to God, SO THAT your sins may be wiped out, THAT TIMES OF REFRESHING (ie. the kingdom) MAY COME from the Lord, and THAT HE MAY SEND THE CHRIST, who has been appointed FOR YOU (ie. Israel) - even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, AS HE PROMISED LONG AGO through his holy prophets."
Do you see it? It was possible that Jesus could have returned IN THEIR LIFETIME! "Repent then, ..that he may send the Christ". Incredible stuff!
We know differently now, but for the disciples AT THAT TIME, it really could have happened. In the gospels and various Acts-period epistles the nearness of the second coming was very real..
In their lifetime..
Mat 16.28 - '..some standing here which shall NOT TASTE DEATH till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom'
Mat 24:34 - '..this generation SHALL NOT PASS, till all these things be fulfilled.'
(Note, these gospel statements are not so absolute in the original. The Greek includes a 'maybe' which is usually not translated).
Coming soon..
Heb 10.37 'For in just a VERY LITTLE WHILE, he who is coming will come and will not delay.'
Jam 5.8 '..be patient and stand firm, for THE LORD'S COMING IS NEAR'.
1 John 2.18 'this is THE LAST HOUR'
Rev 1.1 '..what must SOON TAKE PLACE'
Rev '1.3 '..because THE TIME IS NEAR'
1 Cor 10.11 '..for us, on whom the fulfilment of the ages HAS COME'
Rom 13.11-12 'THE HOUR HAS COME....the night is nearly over, the day IS ALMOST HERE'
1 Cor 7.29 'What I mean, brothers, is that THE TIME IS SHORT. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none..' (ie. don't have children)
There is no such urgency in the post-Acts epistles.
6. And then it changed.
continued..
So, end-Acts (or 'Acts 28') dispensationalism, what's it all about?..
1. Its all about Israel.
Anyone reading the OT gets a clear indication that as well as being all about the coming messiah, it is also all about Israel. Other nations barely rate a mention, and then only second to Israel in the coming kingdom.
Since the fall of Adam, the bible has been forward looking to the future redeemer. And since Abraham and his family, the focus has been all about Israel as the chosen nation to be God's 'witness' to the world. Israel are to be a 'kingdom of priests' (Ex 19) and the coming redeemer will be THEIR messiah and THEIR king, to rule the nations. This is the yet future, EARTHLY, 'millennial kingdom'.
Many passages build on the picture of this 'day of rest' for the nation of Israel, and this was the hope of the the people of Israel in Jesus's day (for the messiah to bring RESTORATION to Israel), and still is today.
2. The gospels is not new teaching.
Along comes the NT and, apart from that dreaded 'blank page', it is really just a continuation of the OT. In the gospels we read of Jesus coming only 'to the lost sheep of the house of Israel' and telling his disciples to 'go not into the way of the Gentiles'. He did not come to preach to the world, he had come to preach to the nation of Israel. And in all that he said and did, even his rejection and crucifixion - it is all only what was already written or prophesied about in the OT. There is new clarity on old themes, but it is nothing new. Even the 'new covenant' proclaimed at the last supper is also not new teaching, it is foretold in Jer 31, and belongs to ISRAEL, not Gentiles! Israel are still in position #1.
3. Acts is not new teaching.
Israel rejected Jesus the first time. This was foretold and necessary for the 'one sacrifice for all' to be completed. But on the cross Jesus also prayed, 'father forgive them for they know not what they do'. The 'them' here is ISRAEL, and the book of Acts is the answer to that prayer in being a window of opportunity, a second chance, for Israel to accept Jesus as their messiah.
A careful reading of Acts, you can see the prime focus throughout is for Israel (first in Jerusalem and then to the dispersion) to repent and accept Jesus as their messiah. Many individuals were saved during that period, but the Jewish leadership continued to reject the message. Later as Gentiles come into the picture, Israel is still the prime objective and Gentile inclusion is mainly for the purpose 'to provoke them to jealousy' - an adrenaline shot to wake them up. Even Paul who was the 'apostle to the Gentiles' first goes to the synagogue in all the places he goes. The pattern is clear - new town, preach in the synagogue, get rejected, preach to the Gentiles, get chased out of town by the Jews. Even as late as Acts 28:20, Paul says "FOR THE HOPE OF ISRAEL I am bound with this chain". (It may be a stretch to some, but it is possible that the term 'apostle to the Gentiles' can mean 'to those (Jews) among the Gentiles' (ie. the dispersion). It certainly fits the pattern that Paul took.
Yet still, it is all OT prophecy. In Paul's address to Festus, he says (Acts 26) "..I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying NONE OTHER THINGS THAN THOSE WHICH THE PROPHETS AND MOSES DID SAY should come: that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."
And again in the closing verses of Acts, Paul in his final address to the Jewish leadership in Rome says (Acts 28) "..And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both OUT OF THE LAW OF MOSES, AND OUT OF THE PROPHETS, from morning till evening."
So in all, what he taught was all backed up from the Law and Prophets. And it needed to be for his credibility to the Jews. The people of Berea in ch 17 are evidence of this attitude, where "they .. SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES daily, WHETHER THOSE THINGS WERE SO. THEREFORE MANY OF THEM BELIEVED".
4. Miracles in Acts - why?
To the Jews, and from OT history, miracles are a sign of a prophet's credentials. The same applied to Jesus. You see this in the miracle of the lame man. When Jesus was criticised for forgiving the man's sins, he replied (Mat 9:6) "SO THAT YOU MAY KNOW that the Son of Man has AUTHORITY on earth to forgive sins, then He said to the paralytic, 'Arise, take up your bed..'". The miracle was his stamp of authority.
In the opening chapters of Acts we read of the disciples (Jews only at this point) receiving the holy spirit and immediately we see miracles taking place. Something new? Not really. This too is all OT prophecy. Peter explains this in Acts 2 "THIS IS THAT WIHCH WAS SPOKEN OF BY THE PROPHET JOEL, '..your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams... before the coming of the great and glorious day of the lord'". And the context of Joel?, it is all about Israel and its restoration.
Hebrews 6 provides an important clue. Here the writer (Paul) in criticising the Jews behaviour says, "..those who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the holy spirit, who have TASTED the goodness of God and THE POWERS OF THE COMING AGE..".
So there it is, the miraculous powers during Acts were a taste of the coming age, the millennial kingdom! (And so really belong to Israel). And not just some random thing which occurred because it was a good thing, but there is purpose to it.
5. And this will blow your socks off!
Now consider this..
In Acts 2 and 3 Peter addresses the crowds at Pentecost (a Jewish feast drawing pilgrim Jews from the dispersion) as "men of Israel" and "brothers". And in v3:19 saying: "REPENT, then, and turn to God, SO THAT your sins may be wiped out, THAT TIMES OF REFRESHING (ie. the kingdom) MAY COME from the Lord, and THAT HE MAY SEND THE CHRIST, who has been appointed FOR YOU (ie. Israel) - even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, AS HE PROMISED LONG AGO through his holy prophets."
Do you see it? It was possible that Jesus could have returned IN THEIR LIFETIME! "Repent then, ..that he may send the Christ". Incredible stuff!
We know differently now, but for the disciples AT THAT TIME, it really could have happened. In the gospels and various Acts-period epistles the nearness of the second coming was very real..
In their lifetime..
Mat 16.28 - '..some standing here which shall NOT TASTE DEATH till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom'
Mat 24:34 - '..this generation SHALL NOT PASS, till all these things be fulfilled.'
(Note, these gospel statements are not so absolute in the original. The Greek includes a 'maybe' which is usually not translated).
Coming soon..
Heb 10.37 'For in just a VERY LITTLE WHILE, he who is coming will come and will not delay.'
Jam 5.8 '..be patient and stand firm, for THE LORD'S COMING IS NEAR'.
1 John 2.18 'this is THE LAST HOUR'
Rev 1.1 '..what must SOON TAKE PLACE'
Rev '1.3 '..because THE TIME IS NEAR'
1 Cor 10.11 '..for us, on whom the fulfilment of the ages HAS COME'
Rom 13.11-12 'THE HOUR HAS COME....the night is nearly over, the day IS ALMOST HERE'
1 Cor 7.29 'What I mean, brothers, is that THE TIME IS SHORT. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none..' (ie. don't have children)
There is no such urgency in the post-Acts epistles.
6. And then it changed.
continued..
6. And then it changed.
At the end of Acts, in Ch 28:25-28 after Paul's all-day gathering with the Jews, their rejection meant Israel's second chance expired. Paul's parting proclamation in Acts 28:25-28 "..And when they AGREED NOT among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, 'well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: for the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. BE IT KNOWN THEREFORE unto you, THAT THE SALVATION OF GOD IS SENT UNTO THE GENTILES, and that they will hear it'". - This is the moment. This is the great dispensational divide. The prophetic clock of Daniel - the 70 sevens, has stopped ticking. The end did not come - not yet. Israel are set aside.
So what changed?
(Post-Acts epistles: Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon).
Before:
Miracles - healing, tongues, prophecy, resurrections, even Paul sending his scarf could heal.
Gifts - healing, tongues, prophecy,..
Urgency - the time is short, do not marry.
Church - israel 'the bride', christ the bridegroom. gentiles 'grafted in' to the olive tree of israel (but the axe is ready). 'since' the foundation of the world.
Scriptural? - many OT proofs, 'the Law and Prophets', 'none other things'
Law observance - the Jews still observed the Law (they had to for credibility), Gentiles only need to keep ceremonially clean "abstain from blood, sexual immorality" (Acts 15), had timothy circumcised.
Status - Jew first
Hope - earthly kingdom ('kingdom OF heaven' on earth - '..your will be done, on earth as in heaven..')
After:
Miracles - no mention of miracles - praying for 'recovery', 'take wine for your stomach pain', 'i left trophimus sick'
Gifts - (eph 4) apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers
Urgency - no mention; marry, have children.
Church - 'the body' with Christ the head, no more Jew/Gentile, one new man. chosen 'before' the foundation of the world.
Scriptural? - not in the OT. 'by revelation', 'mystery, hid in god', 'in other ages, not made known', 'unsearchable riches'.
Law and Prophets practice - 'abolished', 'let no man judge you in respect to food, drink, holy days, sabbaths', circumcision is 'mutilators of the flesh'
Status - No more Jew/Gentile, the two made one
Hope - not fully clear, but seems our destination is IN heaven, rather than to the earthly kingom, which is 'OF heaven', he has 'blessed us with all spiritual blessings IN THE HEAVENLIES in Christ' (eph 1).
But did the people understand the new message? did the Jews like the idea of the law being abolished? not really - 'all those in asia have turned away from me'
7. So what next?
Somehow, some time, this dispensation must close, like a parenthesis, and the old one resume for the OT prophecies to be fulfilled, the 70 sevens of Daniel to complete, the temple, the daily sacrifices, the antichrist, the desolation, the return of Christ to setup his kingdom..
Rom 11:25-27 "For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE NATIONS HAS COME IN. And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, 'There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins.'"
Wrap up.
Well, that was a bit long - it certainly could've been longer - but hopefully it is enough to layout some of the thinking. I'm no expert at this, most of this has been taught to me by others, so I may struggle for the inevitable backlash, but I stand by it. Some of this is subtle and confusing, and particularly if you stick to one English version or another it may not stack up (we have different translations for a reason - its not so easy a task and often the original text can be translated in completely different ways), it takes time. But once you 'see' it there is no going back. It will take me some convincing to ditch it for something other than an end-Acts dispensational divide.
I didn't really answer the original question on miracles now or not, but to be brief - I believe that miracles can happen now, but certainly not in the same way as during the gospels and Acts period. At that time, miracles were for a SIGN (to SIGNify) to Israel that the kingdom was indeed AT HAND. After Israel failed to accept that, at the end-Acts, the purpose for these miracles was gone, so the miracles ceased.
Now this failure of Israel was planned for by God, it just wasn't documented in prophecy. If it was, they would have an excuse that it was not their fault, so it was "hid in God". But also, because there is a war ongoing between God and Satan, so this 'mystery' (secret) was hidden from Satan too. But now this current dispensation has a whole new purpose, and seems to be related to the reparation of the damage done IN HEAVEN at Satans' fall.
Okay, okay, stopping.
(exhausted now..)
At the end of Acts, in Ch 28:25-28 after Paul's all-day gathering with the Jews, their rejection meant Israel's second chance expired. Paul's parting proclamation in Acts 28:25-28 "..And when they AGREED NOT among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, 'well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: for the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. BE IT KNOWN THEREFORE unto you, THAT THE SALVATION OF GOD IS SENT UNTO THE GENTILES, and that they will hear it'". - This is the moment. This is the great dispensational divide. The prophetic clock of Daniel - the 70 sevens, has stopped ticking. The end did not come - not yet. Israel are set aside.
So what changed?
(Post-Acts epistles: Ephesians, Colossians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon).
Before:
Miracles - healing, tongues, prophecy, resurrections, even Paul sending his scarf could heal.
Gifts - healing, tongues, prophecy,..
Urgency - the time is short, do not marry.
Church - israel 'the bride', christ the bridegroom. gentiles 'grafted in' to the olive tree of israel (but the axe is ready). 'since' the foundation of the world.
Scriptural? - many OT proofs, 'the Law and Prophets', 'none other things'
Law observance - the Jews still observed the Law (they had to for credibility), Gentiles only need to keep ceremonially clean "abstain from blood, sexual immorality" (Acts 15), had timothy circumcised.
Status - Jew first
Hope - earthly kingdom ('kingdom OF heaven' on earth - '..your will be done, on earth as in heaven..')
After:
Miracles - no mention of miracles - praying for 'recovery', 'take wine for your stomach pain', 'i left trophimus sick'
Gifts - (eph 4) apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers
Urgency - no mention; marry, have children.
Church - 'the body' with Christ the head, no more Jew/Gentile, one new man. chosen 'before' the foundation of the world.
Scriptural? - not in the OT. 'by revelation', 'mystery, hid in god', 'in other ages, not made known', 'unsearchable riches'.
Law and Prophets practice - 'abolished', 'let no man judge you in respect to food, drink, holy days, sabbaths', circumcision is 'mutilators of the flesh'
Status - No more Jew/Gentile, the two made one
Hope - not fully clear, but seems our destination is IN heaven, rather than to the earthly kingom, which is 'OF heaven', he has 'blessed us with all spiritual blessings IN THE HEAVENLIES in Christ' (eph 1).
But did the people understand the new message? did the Jews like the idea of the law being abolished? not really - 'all those in asia have turned away from me'
7. So what next?
Somehow, some time, this dispensation must close, like a parenthesis, and the old one resume for the OT prophecies to be fulfilled, the 70 sevens of Daniel to complete, the temple, the daily sacrifices, the antichrist, the desolation, the return of Christ to setup his kingdom..
Rom 11:25-27 "For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE NATIONS HAS COME IN. And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, 'There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. For this is My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins.'"
Wrap up.
Well, that was a bit long - it certainly could've been longer - but hopefully it is enough to layout some of the thinking. I'm no expert at this, most of this has been taught to me by others, so I may struggle for the inevitable backlash, but I stand by it. Some of this is subtle and confusing, and particularly if you stick to one English version or another it may not stack up (we have different translations for a reason - its not so easy a task and often the original text can be translated in completely different ways), it takes time. But once you 'see' it there is no going back. It will take me some convincing to ditch it for something other than an end-Acts dispensational divide.
I didn't really answer the original question on miracles now or not, but to be brief - I believe that miracles can happen now, but certainly not in the same way as during the gospels and Acts period. At that time, miracles were for a SIGN (to SIGNify) to Israel that the kingdom was indeed AT HAND. After Israel failed to accept that, at the end-Acts, the purpose for these miracles was gone, so the miracles ceased.
Now this failure of Israel was planned for by God, it just wasn't documented in prophecy. If it was, they would have an excuse that it was not their fault, so it was "hid in God". But also, because there is a war ongoing between God and Satan, so this 'mystery' (secret) was hidden from Satan too. But now this current dispensation has a whole new purpose, and seems to be related to the reparation of the damage done IN HEAVEN at Satans' fall.
Okay, okay, stopping.
(exhausted now..)
I believe the age of grace started on the day of penticost when the Holy Spirit came and dwelled in the Apostles.. The age of grace was already established before Paul converted.. In fact Paul who was Saul was actually engaged in a war against those who where already saved by Grace through the LORD Jesus Christ..
O.T. forgiveness.....
“…on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins.” - Leviticus 16:30
“In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now." The LORD replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked. Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth.” - Numbers 14:19-21
Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit. - Psalm 32:1-2
“Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin…Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.” - Psalm 51: 2; 7
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool
"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.” Isaiah 43:25
“I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you. Isaiah 44:22
See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.” - Zechariah 3:4
“…on this day atonement will be made for you, to cleanse you. Then, before the Lord, you will be clean from all your sins.” - Leviticus 16:30
“In accordance with your great love, forgive the sin of these people, just as you have pardoned them from the time they left Egypt until now." The LORD replied, "I have forgiven them, as you asked. Nevertheless, as surely as I live and as surely as the glory of the LORD fills the whole earth.” - Numbers 14:19-21
Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord does not count against them and in whose spirit is no deceit. - Psalm 32:1-2
“Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin…Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.” - Psalm 51: 2; 7
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool
"I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.” Isaiah 43:25
“I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you. Isaiah 44:22
See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.” - Zechariah 3:4
No need to be disrespectful in your reply....
God forgives all sin except one... Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit,, through the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..
So the fact that God does not forgive one sin blasphemy of the holy Spirit is not ""idiotic"" it is Biblical direct from the mouth of the LORD Jesus Christ..
God forgives all sin except one... Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit,, through the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..
So the fact that God does not forgive one sin blasphemy of the holy Spirit is not ""idiotic"" it is Biblical direct from the mouth of the LORD Jesus Christ..
See...now you are embellishing and trying to switch gears mid stride....your comment was clear and not correct.......YOU SAID the following which had NOTHING to do with blasphemy of the SPIRIT....
You said....GOD forgave DAVID'S sin of adultery and murder, BUT the REST of HIS SINS were not forgiven until<<<<exactly what you implied and said.....FALSE and make no mistake.....no disrespect implied or meant, but to say what you said was idiotic......
Adstar said:
I am referring to eternal grace.......
Of course God forgave people in the OT of specific sins and in Davids case it was his sin of adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband.. But other sins of David would not be forgiven until Jesus atoned for them on the cross..
You said....GOD forgave DAVID'S sin of adultery and murder, BUT the REST of HIS SINS were not forgiven until<<<<exactly what you implied and said.....FALSE and make no mistake.....no disrespect implied or meant, but to say what you said was idiotic......
Adstar said:
I am referring to eternal grace.......
Of course God forgave people in the OT of specific sins and in Davids case it was his sin of adultery with Bathsheba and the murder of her husband.. But other sins of David would not be forgiven until Jesus atoned for them on the cross..