Must one believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved?

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,601
13,017
113
#1
There seem to be a large number of “Christians” today who do not believe that Jesus is God: ‘About a third of evangelicals say Jesus was a “good teacher” but was not God, according to a LifeWay Research study created for Ligonier Ministries. Also, 65 percent of evangelicals believe “Jesus is the first and greatest being created by God” a statement that goes against the Bible’s teachings.’
https://www.beliefnet.com/columnist...evangelicals-say-jesus-was-not-god-poll-shows

Also, there are at least nine “faith groups” which reject the doctrine of the Holy Trinity as held by Bible-believing Chiristians. They include Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Christadelphians, Oneness Pentecostals, Unification Church, Unity School of Christianity, Armstrongists, and Scientologists.

So the question remains “Must one believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved?” And the answer from Scripture is a resounding “Yes”.

This passage from Isaiah 45:21-23 makes it perfectly clear that it is applicable to both God and Christ:
Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

We see here that our Saviour is God, and we find in the New Testament that Jesus is called “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13).

Did Jesus insist that believing in Him as God was necessary in order to be saved? Yes, He did. In John chapter 8 there is a lengthy discourse between Christ and His enemies. Jesus declared to the scribes and Pharisees that He was the Light of the world. Then He went on to say in verse 24:
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM [he], ye shall die in your sins.

The King James translators failed to translate this verse correctly. “I AM” is the name of God (Exodus 3:14) and it is capitalized in the OT. That is how it should have been translated in the New Testament and there are several times when this was not done. Also there is no “he” in that verse, and that is why it is in italics. Here is how the Greek in written in the Received Text: εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν, and it literally reads as “I said therefore to you that you will die in the sins of you. If for not you believe that I AM, you will die in the sins of you”.

We find in Exodus 3, that Jesus is called (1) the Angel of the Lord (in His pre-incarnate form), (2) the LORD (YHWH=Yahweh), (3) God, (4) the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, (5) IAM THAT I AM, and (6) I AM. Jesus chose to call Himself “I AM” therefore He also said to the Jews “Before Abraham was I AM” (John 8:58). Unless it meant exactly what it meant in Exodus, that statement would not make grammatical sense.

This goes back to the fact that (a) Jesus is “God manifest in the flesh” (1 Tim 3:16) and (b) Jesus is “the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). There could be only one sinless Substite for the sins of the whole world, and that is God as sinless Man dying on the cross of Calvary, and being made “Sin” for us. The very fact that our Saviour was named “Yehoshua” or “Yeshua” or “Yahshua” (which is “Iesous” in Greek and “Jesus” in English) proves that Jesus is God. His name means “God is our Salvation”.


So why is it that in spite of all these Scripture, people reject the deity of Christ and therefore face eternal damnation? There can only be one reason. Satan blinds the minds of people to prevent them from believing the truth, and then deceives them into believing a lie. His ultimate goal is to see the entire human race in Hell. But the light of the Gospel is given so that people will come to the Light of the world -- Jesus. Therefore God will bring many to salvation.
 

Eromonnis

Senior Member
Dec 21, 2017
141
9
18
#2
Why rely on what is not God, or from God, to tell you who is God.
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
2,920
1,591
113
47
#3
When I first became a Christian, I knew at least that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only One who could save me. However, I didn't fully grasp the concept of Jesus being fully God Himself at the time I was saved.

I have come to lot better understanding of that since then.

The Holy Spirit knows which level of understanding each person needs in order to accept Christ as Savior. Some will better understand His divine nature than others will at the moment of salvation. Then the Spirit will work on each person to illuminate his/her understanding of who & what God really is.

$0.02
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
1,375
432
83
30
Anacortes, WA
#4
One may be saved without knowing the name "Jesus".
But to deny the deity of Jesus after knowing it is of the spirit of Antichrist.
 
L

Live4Him2

Guest
#5
This passage from Isaiah 45:21-23 makes it perfectly clear that it is applicable to both God and Christ: Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

We see here that our Saviour is God, and we find in the New Testament that Jesus is called “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13).
In relation to this "God and Saviour" who is mentioned in Isaiah 45:21-23, verse 23 also clearly identifies who he is:

"I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. " (Isaiah 45:23)

Compare this to what we read in the New Testament in relation to Jesus Christ:

Philippians chapter 2

[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 
L

Live4Him2

Guest
#6
One may be saved without knowing the name "Jesus".
???

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
 

glen55

Active member
Jul 10, 2021
168
26
28
68
#7
There seem to be a large number of “Christians” today who do not believe that Jesus is God: ‘About a third of evangelicals say Jesus was a “good teacher” but was not God, according to a LifeWay Research study created for Ligonier Ministries. Also, 65 percent of evangelicals believe “Jesus is the first and greatest being created by God” a statement that goes against the Bible’s teachings.’
https://www.beliefnet.com/columnist...evangelicals-say-jesus-was-not-god-poll-shows


Also, there are at least nine “faith groups” which reject the doctrine of the Holy Trinity as held by Bible-believing Chiristians. They include Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Christadelphians, Oneness Pentecostals, Unification Church, Unity School of Christianity, Armstrongists, and Scientologists.

So the question remains “Must one believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved?” And the answer from Scripture is a resounding “Yes”.

This passage from Isaiah 45:21-23 makes it perfectly clear that it is applicable to both God and Christ: Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

We see here that our Saviour is God, and we find in the New Testament that Jesus is called “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13).

Did Jesus insist that believing in Him as God was necessary in order to be saved? Yes, He did. In John chapter 8 there is a lengthy discourse between Christ and His enemies. Jesus declared to the scribes and Pharisees that He was the Light of the world. Then He went on to say in verse 24: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM [he], ye shall die in your sins.

The King James translators failed to translate this verse correctly. “I AM” is the name of God (Exodus 3:14) and it is capitalized in the OT. That is how it should have been translated in the New Testament and there are several times when this was not done. Also there is no “he” in that verse, and that is why it is in italics. Here is how the Greek in written in the Received Text: εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν, and it literally reads as “I said therefore to you that you will die in the sins of you. If for not you believe that I AM, you will die in the sins of you”.

We find in Exodus 3, that Jesus is called (1) the Angel of the Lord (in His pre-incarnate form), (2) the LORD (YHWH=Yahweh), (3) God, (4) the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, (5) IAM THAT I AM, and (6) I AM. Jesus chose to call Himself “I AM” therefore He also said to the Jews “Before Abraham was I AM” (John 8:58). Unless it meant exactly what it meant in Exodus, that statement would not make grammatical sense.

This goes back to the fact that (a) Jesus is “God manifest in the flesh” (1 Tim 3:16) and (b) Jesus is “the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). There could be only one sinless Substite for the sins of the whole world, and that is God as sinless Man dying on the cross of Calvary, and being made “Sin” for us. The very fact that our Saviour was named “Yehoshua” or “Yeshua” or “Yahshua” (which is “Iesous” in Greek and “Jesus” in English) proves that Jesus is God. His name means “God is our Salvation”.

So why is it that in spite of all these Scripture, people reject the deity of Christ and therefore face eternal damnation? There can only be one reason. Satan blinds the minds of people to prevent them from believing the truth, and then deceives them into believing a lie. His ultimate goal is to see the entire human race in Hell. But the light of the Gospel is given so that people will come to the Light of the world -- Jesus. Therefore God will bring many to salvation.
If you consider that the stories of Bible are still happening and can be found under the sun is changed only with modern ways but do the same thinking repeated to flesh and blood that thinks what spirit knows why they do good and evil that is taught its physical action and don't worry by thoughts, that is a child learning and called milk, when we become told thought also is failure that flesh and blood can't stop it no matter how great you are, it only takes one to fail you and isn't seen by others who see your great life as flesh and blood, the spirit then tells you death defeats law of Moses and then your told to die to bad thoughts by spirit thoughts that is like training where you fail many times until your awakened to being spirit with the seed that is in all man that is trying four times till you defeat thoughts. They call the OT dead letter because you will experience then it will be understood of yourself.
2Cor 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 6But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
That is hard to think its in you but you will like we all will when we wake to it.
Luke 17: (leaves a hint) 20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,781
13,414
113
#8
Can a person be saved and not yet believe that Jesus is God? Yes, absolutely. I was there myself for a few years.

Can a person be saved and consciously reject that Jesus is God? That's a different question, and I would lean to answering no. There is abundant scriptural evidence for Jesus' divinity; I can't see how those who reject it are being taught by the Holy Spirit.

Most of the organizations that corporately reject Jesus' divinity are not Christian, but salvation is offered to individuals, not to organizations.
 

Blade

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2019
1,640
580
113
#9
Simple answer is no. John 3 16 Rom 10 9-10. This should good.. yes I agree one can be saved and never hearing of Jesus.. still happens today. What did Jesus say about if He had never came? Then saying if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains. Indians.. my background.. SO many came and died never hearing of Jesus. Yet ALL still get a choice :)
 
Dec 30, 2020
868
226
43
#10
There seem to be a large number of “Christians” today who do not believe that Jesus is God: ‘About a third of evangelicals say Jesus was a “good teacher” but was not God, according to a LifeWay Research study created for Ligonier Ministries. Also, 65 percent of evangelicals believe “Jesus is the first and greatest being created by God” a statement that goes against the Bible’s teachings.’
https://www.beliefnet.com/columnist...evangelicals-say-jesus-was-not-god-poll-shows


Also, there are at least nine “faith groups” which reject the doctrine of the Holy Trinity as held by Bible-believing Chiristians. They include Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Scientists, Christadelphians, Oneness Pentecostals, Unification Church, Unity School of Christianity, Armstrongists, and Scientologists.

So the question remains “Must one believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved?” And the answer from Scripture is a resounding “Yes”.

This passage from Isaiah 45:21-23 makes it perfectly clear that it is applicable to both God and Christ: Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

We see here that our Saviour is God, and we find in the New Testament that Jesus is called “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13).

Did Jesus insist that believing in Him as God was necessary in order to be saved? Yes, He did. In John chapter 8 there is a lengthy discourse between Christ and His enemies. Jesus declared to the scribes and Pharisees that He was the Light of the world. Then He went on to say in verse 24: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM [he], ye shall die in your sins.

The King James translators failed to translate this verse correctly. “I AM” is the name of God (Exodus 3:14) and it is capitalized in the OT. That is how it should have been translated in the New Testament and there are several times when this was not done. Also there is no “he” in that verse, and that is why it is in italics. Here is how the Greek in written in the Received Text: εἶπον οὖν ὑμῖν ὅτι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν· ἐὰν γὰρ μὴ πιστεύσητε ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι ἀποθανεῖσθε ἐν ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν, and it literally reads as “I said therefore to you that you will die in the sins of you. If for not you believe that I AM, you will die in the sins of you”.

We find in Exodus 3, that Jesus is called (1) the Angel of the Lord (in His pre-incarnate form), (2) the LORD (YHWH=Yahweh), (3) God, (4) the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, (5) IAM THAT I AM, and (6) I AM. Jesus chose to call Himself “I AM” therefore He also said to the Jews “Before Abraham was I AM” (John 8:58). Unless it meant exactly what it meant in Exodus, that statement would not make grammatical sense.

This goes back to the fact that (a) Jesus is “God manifest in the flesh” (1 Tim 3:16) and (b) Jesus is “the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world” (John 1:29). There could be only one sinless Substite for the sins of the whole world, and that is God as sinless Man dying on the cross of Calvary, and being made “Sin” for us. The very fact that our Saviour was named “Yehoshua” or “Yeshua” or “Yahshua” (which is “Iesous” in Greek and “Jesus” in English) proves that Jesus is God. His name means “God is our Salvation”.

So why is it that in spite of all these Scripture, people reject the deity of Christ and therefore face eternal damnation? There can only be one reason. Satan blinds the minds of people to prevent them from believing the truth, and then deceives them into believing a lie. His ultimate goal is to see the entire human race in Hell. But the light of the Gospel is given so that people will come to the Light of the world -- Jesus. Therefore God will bring many to salvation.
Jesus, the Father, and We are One. John 17: 21 That they may be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent Me.





A. The largest rectangle represents:
1. The Family of God the Father in heaven
2. The Holy Spirit of the Father
3. The Father of Christ
4. God almighty
5. God of all ( including Jesus Christ)
6. Those that are Baptized in the Father's name
7. Supreme Ruler
8. Lord of all

B. The second largest rectangle represents:
1. The first and only creation of the Father
2. The Son
3. The Christ
4. Jesus
5. The Body of Christ
6. The Spirit of Christ
7. Our Lord
8. Our Savior
9. Our God
10. The Right Hand of the Father
11. Jehovah
12. Those Baptized in the Son's name
13. The Holy One of Israel
14. The tabernacle of God
15. The kingdom of the Son
16. The Word


C. The smallest rectangle represents:
1. The Church of Christ
2. The Bride of Christ
3. The spirits of those humans who in their lifetime repented of their
sins, trusted and believed in God's plan for their salvation.
4. The elect
5. Those chosen
6. The saints
7. Those baptized in the Name of the Father
8. Those baptized in the Name of the Son
9. Those that are filled with the Spirit of the Father and Son
10. Those that obey the Spirit of the Law and are filled with God-
given love to accomplish this obedience
11. Those who worship both Father and Son in Spirit and in Truth
 
Dec 30, 2020
868
226
43
#11
Jesus, the Father, and We are One. John 17: 21 That they may be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent Me.





A. The largest rectangle represents:
1. The Family of God the Father in heaven
2. The Holy Spirit of the Father
3. The Father of Christ
4. God almighty
5. God of all ( including Jesus Christ)
6. Those that are Baptized in the Father's name
7. Supreme Ruler
8. Lord of all

B. The second largest rectangle represents:
1. The first and only creation of the Father
2. The Son
3. The Christ
4. Jesus
5. The Body of Christ
6. The Spirit of Christ
7. Our Lord
8. Our Savior
9. Our God
10. The Right Hand of the Father
11. Jehovah
12. Those Baptized in the Son's name
13. The Holy One of Israel
14. The tabernacle of God
15. The kingdom of the Son
16. The Word


C. The smallest rectangle represents:
1. The Church of Christ
2. The Bride of Christ
3. The spirits of those humans who in their lifetime repented of their
sins, trusted and believed in God's plan for their salvation.
4. The elect
5. Those chosen
6. The saints
7. Those baptized in the Name of the Father
8. Those baptized in the Name of the Son
9. Those that are filled with the Spirit of the Father and Son
10. Those that obey the Spirit of the Law and are filled with God-
given love to accomplish this obedience
11. Those who worship both Father and Son in Spirit and in Truth
A1.,A6. Eph 3: 14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.
A2. Eph 1: 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
THe Father is not only the Father and God of Jesus Christ, but is the Father or source of His Holy Spirit which He indwells both spirits and humans to communicate , empower, enlighten, and perform His will. When someone is glorified, he is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit.
A3. Eph 1: 2-3 Grace be to you, and peace, from God, our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.
John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

A4. Eph 1: 19-21 And what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come;
It was the mighty power of the Father that raised Christ from the dead and set Him in His position of Honor in Heaven and Earth.
John 10: 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father
John 12: 49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father, who sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting; whatsoever I speak, therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
The Father through His Holy Spirit communicates through Christ to the point that it is actually the Father speaking through Jesus.
Isaiah 45: 11-12 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and His Maker: Ask me of things to come concerning my sons; and concerning the work of my hands, command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it; I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. The Lord, the Holy One of Israel, is the Christ, and His Maker is the Father.

A5. 1 Cor 15 : 27-28 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted who did put all things under Him.
The Father put all things under Jesus' feet except Himself. Even Jesus is subject unto Him because the Father's Spirit resides in Jesus and in us.

A7., A8. Deut 10: 17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and awesome , who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
John 10: 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father
The Father issues commands and the Son obeys. Why is it so difficult to understand the chain of command?
 
Dec 30, 2020
868
226
43
#12
A1.,A6. Eph 3: 14-15 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.
A2. Eph 1: 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
THe Father is not only the Father and God of Jesus Christ, but is the Father or source of His Holy Spirit which He indwells both spirits and humans to communicate , empower, enlighten, and perform His will. When someone is glorified, he is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit.
A3. Eph 1: 2-3 Grace be to you, and peace, from God, our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ.
John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

A4. Eph 1: 19-21 And what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power, Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come;
It was the mighty power of the Father that raised Christ from the dead and set Him in His position of Honor in Heaven and Earth.
John 10: 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father
John 12: 49-50 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father, who sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that His commandment is life everlasting; whatsoever I speak, therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
The Father through His Holy Spirit communicates through Christ to the point that it is actually the Father speaking through Jesus.
Isaiah 45: 11-12 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and His Maker: Ask me of things to come concerning my sons; and concerning the work of my hands, command ye me. I have made the earth, and created man upon it; I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. The Lord, the Holy One of Israel, is the Christ, and His Maker is the Father.

A5. 1 Cor 15 : 27-28 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted who did put all things under Him.
The Father put all things under Jesus' feet except Himself. Even Jesus is subject unto Him because the Father's Spirit resides in Jesus and in us.

A7., A8. Deut 10: 17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and awesome , who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
John 10: 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father
The Father issues commands and the Son obeys. Why is it so difficult to understand the chain of command?
B1. Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as He by inheritance obtained a more excellant name than they. Isaiah 43: 10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen, that ye may know and believe, and understand that I am He; before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. God the Father existed in Spirit before anything was formed. Christ is the first and only being formed by the Father. That is another reason He is referred to as the Son of God. Christ is the tool that the Father uses to perpetrate His will. In 1 Cor 15: 27-28 the Father puts all things under Christ's feet since all things were created by the Father through Christ. That makes Christ Lord of all creation. As a reward for His perfection and obedience to the point of becoming a human and going through suffering and death, the Father gives Him the title of a God and a kingdom made up of born again believers. No God formed before and no God will be formed after. Christ is our Lord, our Savior, and our God, but the Father is the God of all ( including Christ). Isaiah 44: 1 explains that the Lord is referring to Jacob as His servant and Israel as His chosen.
Heb1: 8 But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever: a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom.
Psalm 45: 6-7 Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever; the scepter of thy kingdom is a right scepter. Thou lovest righteousness and hatest wickedness; therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.
THe beginning starts when the Spirit of the Father forms Christ. The Father has always existed and has no beginning.
John 1: 1-3 In the beginnng was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made.

B2. Matt 3: 17 And, lo, a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

B3., B4. Matt 16: 15-16 He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

B5,6,7,8,9 Eph 1: 22-23 And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is His body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all.
Through time Christ's body is being filled with the spirits of the saints by the Father who determines when fullness is achieved.
Matt 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There are some standing here, who shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom.
The Son has a kingdom and therefore sits on a throne.
Rom 14: 17 For the kingdom of God is not food and drink, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.
 
Dec 30, 2020
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#13
B11 Exodus 6: 2-3 And God spoke unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord; And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Christ, before He became Jesus, was very active in Old Testament times and is very active today. He is the God of the Old Testament perpetrating the Father's will then, now, and in the Future.
In Rev 22: 3 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
For it to mean one throne for the Father and the Lamb, it would have read but the throne of God and the Lamb. The scripture in Rev 22: 3 means but the throne of God and the throne of the Lamb.
What you have is a kingdom of the Son within the kingdom of the Father and therefore two thrones.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,791
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#14
Jesus, the Father, and We are One. John 17: 21 That they may be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent Me.





A. The largest rectangle represents:
1. The Family of God the Father in heaven
2. The Holy Spirit of the Father
3. The Father of Christ
4. God almighty
5. God of all ( including Jesus Christ)
6. Those that are Baptized in the Father's name
7. Supreme Ruler
8. Lord of all

B. The second largest rectangle represents:
1. The first and only creation of the Father
2. The Son
3. The Christ
4. Jesus
5. The Body of Christ
6. The Spirit of Christ
7. Our Lord
8. Our Savior
9. Our God
10. The Right Hand of the Father
11. Jehovah
12. Those Baptized in the Son's name
13. The Holy One of Israel
14. The tabernacle of God
15. The kingdom of the Son
16. The Word


C. The smallest rectangle represents:
1. The Church of Christ
2. The Bride of Christ
3. The spirits of those humans who in their lifetime repented of their
sins, trusted and believed in God's plan for their salvation.
4. The elect
5. Those chosen
6. The saints
7. Those baptized in the Name of the Father
8. Those baptized in the Name of the Son
9. Those that are filled with the Spirit of the Father and Son
10. Those that obey the Spirit of the Law and are filled with God-
given love to accomplish this obedience
11. Those who worship both Father and Son in Spirit and in Truth

that is very good.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,601
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#16
Can a person be saved and not yet believe that Jesus is God? Yes, absolutely. I was there myself for a few years.
When the Gospel is preached is it not an integral part of the Gospel to show people that God became sinless Man in order to die for their sins? It would be impossible to preach the true Gospel and avoid the supernatural birth of Christ and what it meant.
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
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Anacortes, WA
#17
???

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
The Scripture you shared is correct, but unrelated to my statement. When I said "without knowing the name 'Jesus' ", I was referring to people who never heard the gospel, never seen a Bible, never heard a preacher preach, the isolated, etc.

“When Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them...God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.” (Romans 2:14–16)

I encourage you to study the passage if you'd like more clarification.
 
L

Live4Him2

Guest
#18
When the Gospel is preached is it not an integral part of the Gospel to show people that God became sinless Man in order to die for their sins? It would be impossible to preach the true Gospel and avoid the supernatural birth of Christ and what it meant.
In the true gospel message, there is a very important reason why Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man, and that reason is that he's the only one who is both God and man, and therefore the only one who can truly represent both parties.

I'm reminded of the words of Job, who said:

"For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. " (Job 9:32-33)

Again, Jesus Christ is the only "daysman" or mediator who can rightfully "lay his hand upon us both", with "us both" being God and man, because he is the only one who is both God and man.
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
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432
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Anacortes, WA
#19
When I first became a Christian, I knew at least that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only One who could save me. However, I didn't fully grasp the concept of Jesus being fully God Himself at the time I was saved.

I have come to lot better understanding of that since then.

The Holy Spirit knows which level of understanding each person needs in order to accept Christ as Savior. Some will better understand His divine nature than others will at the moment of salvation. Then the Spirit will work on each person to illuminate his/her understanding of who & what God really is.

$0.02
Furthermore, the Holy Spirit can enable the heart to believe what the mind cannot (yet) articulate.
 
L

Live4Him2

Guest
#20
The Scripture you shared is correct, but unrelated to my statement. When I said "without knowing the name 'Jesus' ", I was referring to people who never heard the gospel, never seen a Bible, never heard a preacher preach, the isolated, etc.

“When Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them...God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.” (Romans 2:14–16)

I encourage you to study the passage if you'd like more clarification.
I've read Paul's epistle to the Romans 100 times or more, and this doesn't say that anyone can be saved apart from knowing Jesus' name.

Instead, it's merely talking about someone obeying the law written in their heart.

The gospel that Paul preached is truly revealed all throughout his epistles, and here it is, in his own words, from this same epistle to the Romans:

Romans chapter 10

[6] But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
[7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
[8] But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

How is someone supposed to confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus apart from knowing his name?

It's nonsense.