Mystery, Babylon the Great - earthly Jerusalem?

[zone]

Problems with Adventist Truth about Babylon the Harlot

4. Is the scarlet beast of Revelation 17 the Papacy?

Adventists rightly assume the beast of Revelation 17 is the same beast as that of Revelation 13. The problem is, they have misconstrued the beast of Revelation 13 to be the papacy. The beast of Revelation 13 is easily identified as Pagan Rome, and so is the beast of Revelation 17.

Revelation 17:9 states:

And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

In this image the woman is riding upon the beast and is seen sitting upon "seven mountains". The city of Rome is notorious for being nestled among seven hills. The first century readers of Revelation could not fail to see the connection between the beast having "seven mountains" just as Rome has seven hills. *

The fact that the woman is sitting upon the seat of Rome's power indicates the country has committed spiritual adultery against God and has joined with the Roman Empire, as is evidenced by the pronouncement of the chief priests of the Jewish nation: "We have no king but Caesar" (John 19:15).


cont......




*

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills

Jerusalem, Israel Scopus, Nob, Olivet, "Mount of Corruption" or "Mount of Offence", "Mount Zion", the "Ophel Mount" and the new "Mount Zion."
- wikipedia


In the Pirke de-Rabbi Eliezer, an 8th century midrashic narrative (section 10), the writer mentioned without commentary (showing that the understanding was well known and required no defense) that "Jerusalem is situated on seven hills"
- recorded in The Book of Legends, edited by Bialik and Ravnitzky, p. 371, paragraph 111

 

[zone]

Problems with Adventist Truth about Babylon the Harlot

5. Do the "seven mountains" represent seven world powers throughout history?

The SDA scenario of world powers existing over many long centuries of history is refuted in the first chapter of Revelation, which says the events written therein must "shortly" come to pass. Furthermore, the seven mountains are said to represent "seven kings" not "seven empires" (Rev. 17:10). These "kings" are easily identifiable. Knowing that Revelation was written around 65 AD*, we can identify the seven kings according to Rev. 17:10:

"Five are fallen". These Caesars* had passed away prior to the writing of Revelation:

Julius
Augustus
Tiberius
Caligula
Claudius
"One is", the sixth Caesar, was reigning when John wrote Revelation:
6. Nero

"The other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space"

7. Galba, the seventh Caesar, reigned for less than seven months

6. Do the "ten horns" represent Europe?

This interpretation of the ten horns is based on a flawed understanding of the ten horns on the beast of Daniel 7. In Bible prophecy, horns upon a beast always represent the kings or human leaders of that empire. The ten horns do not represent other empires. They represent the kings that ruled over the Roman Empire. The ten horns represent the ten Caesars that ruled up until the final termination of the Old Covenant and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

- amazingfiction




*
i do not at this time agree nor disagree with the dating of Revelation.
i haven't examined the subject of datings.

*
nor do i necessarily agree with succession of Caesars listed in this study - "five are fallen".
the 10th horn or Caesar, was Titus, who was Prince Titus at the time of the Siege of Jerusalem - later made Caesar.
the 7 kings, imo were Herods - this is an ongoing study.

this study is posted soley as a resource for the purpose of question posed in the OP.

 

[zone]

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

~

Ezekiel 23:2
1The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2"Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother; 3and they played the harlot in Egypt. They played the harlot in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and there their virgin bosom was handled.

Ezekiel 16:45
You are a true daughter of your mother, who despised her husband and her children; and you are a true sister of your sisters, who despised their husbands and their children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite.

Ezekiel 16:46
Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom.

Ezekiel 23:3
They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed.

~

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

 

[1still_waters]

on 'that whole great city thing'...the description of the 'great city' in revelation doesn't match up with jerusalem...specifically jesus was not crucified in jerusalem according to hebrews 13:12...he was crucified outside the city gate...which means he was no longer in jerusalem...

john of course knew exactly where jesus was crucified because he was there...if he wanted us to think of jerusalem he could have very easily made the details actually match up...but he didn't...

I don't know if outside the gate negates the Jerusalemy-ness of his crucifixion.
Seems like hair splitting to me.

If I died ten feet outside of Baltimore, most would say I died in Baltimore.

Also the more literal translations of Heb 13:12 say outside the gate.
That doesn't necessarily mean outside the city itself. It may have meant outside the gate of the temple, seeing the context itself is talking about the place of sacrifice/camp.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp.[SUP]12 [/SUP]So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.[SUP]14 [/SUP]For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.[SUP]16 [/SUP]Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

 

[1still_waters]

Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

~

Ezekiel 23:2
1The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2"Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother; 3and they played the harlot in Egypt. They played the harlot in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and there their virgin bosom was handled.

Ezekiel 16:45
You are a true daughter of your mother, who despised her husband and her children; and you are a true sister of your sisters, who despised their husbands and their children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite.

Ezekiel 16:46
Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom.

Ezekiel 23:3
They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed.

~

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Zone I would like to hear you address heb 13:12 in relation to the great city of Revelation.
It is a legit point in my mind.

 

[AmmiAmmiel]

As each day goes on, I'm becoming more and more convinced that mystery babylon the great is America. I mean think about it, what current nation has the most characteristics that fit the description? There are many others that are dogmatic about this but I remain agnostic so far. Though I will not be surprised if my assumption is correct in the coming future,..

 

[ProphetExcalibur]

Revelation was a New Testament document, but it was written as the last Old Testament document to that last generation of Old Covenant Israel; before the Temple was destroyed in 70 a d. John wrote it in the style of the ancient Prophets of Israel, using the symbolic and prophetic language of these same Prophets. It was not written for anyone in the 21st century to try to understand it by the way we reason or know things in our day! It was not meant to match up to what Jerusalem means in your mind today! This scroll Jesus was given, He unsealed in 30 ad; it has nothing to do with any of us in the 21st century. Jerusalem, was the Great Holy City of God; it had now become Babylon the Great Harlot. Stop taking the text out of it's historical setting and putting in in your day like your the great hero's of God! 30 ad to 70 ad was a special generation! It was the last generation of Old Covenant Israel and the 1st generation of New Covenant Israel at the same time; keep the prophetic text in it's historical setting. No one except bad teaching has given anyone the right to move it to the, 18th, 19th 20th, 21st Century's!

 

[Imperfect]

i didnt read every post so excuse me if its already been addressed. but the mystery babylon is america.. the united states of america.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I don't know if outside the gate negates the Jerusalemy-ness of his crucifixion.
Seems like hair splitting to me.

If I died ten feet outside of Baltimore, most would say I died in Baltimore.

Also the more literal translations of Heb 13:12 say outside the gate.
That doesn't necessarily mean outside the city itself. It may have meant outside the gate of the temple, seeing the context itself is talking about the place of sacrifice/camp.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp.[SUP]12 [/SUP]So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured.[SUP]14 [/SUP]For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come.[SUP]15 [/SUP]Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.[SUP]16 [/SUP]Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.

i don't consider it hair splitting to insist on an interpretation that doesn't violate the principle of biblical inerrancy...any interpretation has to start with the assumption that the text is factually correct in -all- details...'close enough' is a sign of faulty exegesis...

in biblical times especially the city gate was the unambiguous city limit...go one step outside the gate and you were outside the city...

here are some of the best scriptural examples...

joshua 20:4...where a person who kills someone unintentionally stands at the entrance of the gate of a city of refuge...states his case to the elders...and only -after that- is said to be taken 'into the city'...

2 kings 23:6...where the kidron brook is said to be 'outside jerusalem'... on the southeast side of jerusalem the kidron brook actually runs -closer- to the city than golgotha was in jesus' time...and yet it is still considered to be outside the city...

matthew 21:1-11 and mark 11:1-11 and luke 19:28-44...on palm sunday...jesus is near the descent of the mount of olives according to luke...which you can see on a map is not much further from city walls then golgotha was... and according to luke it was in that place where the crowd began to shout 'blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord etc.' yet matthew and mark do not say that jesus 'entered jerusalem' until -after- that point...

finally 'outside the camp' in the old testament meant beyond where the people were living in their tents...for example see exodus 33:7 where moses' original tent of meeting was a good distance from where the people were living... the equivalent for a city with walls would be beyond the city gate...outside the gate of the temple would not correspond to being outside the camp...it would be more like being outside of the courtyard of the tabernacle... so the analogy with being outside the camp really argues against the idea that jesus could have been viewed in any way as having been crucified in jerusalem...

oh and one more thing...in the torah being sent outside the camp was pretty much synonymous from being cut off from the nation of israel...and daniel 9:26 prophesies that the messiah will be 'cut off'

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Stop taking the text out of it's historical setting and putting in in your day like your the great hero's of God!

i would say interpreting revelation according to various old testament passages dating from 650 to 900 years before revelation was written...passages of -already fulfilled- prophecy at that...would be 'taking the text out of its historical setting'

 

[1still_waters]

i don't consider it hair splitting to insist on an interpretation that doesn't violate the principle of biblical inerrancy...any interpretation has to start with the assumption that the text is factually correct in -all- details...'close enough' is a sign of faulty exegesis...

in biblical times especially the city gate was the unambiguous city limit...go one step outside the gate and you were outside the city...

here are some of the best scriptural examples...

joshua 20:4...where a person who kills someone unintentionally stands at the entrance of the gate of a city of refuge...states his case to the elders...and only -after that- is said to be taken 'into the city'...

2 kings 23:6...where the kidron brook is said to be 'outside jerusalem'... on the southeast side of jerusalem the kidron brook actually runs -closer- to the city than golgotha was in jesus' time...and yet it is still considered to be outside the city...

matthew 21:1-11 and mark 11:1-11 and luke 19:28-44...on palm sunday...jesus is near the descent of the mount of olives according to luke...which you can see on a map is not much further from city walls then golgotha was... and according to luke it was in that place where the crowd began to shout 'blessed is he who comes in the name of the lord etc.' yet matthew and mark do not say that jesus 'entered jerusalem' until -after- that point...

finally 'outside the camp' in the old testament meant beyond where the people were living in their tents...for example see exodus 33:7 where moses' original tent of meeting was a good distance from where the people were living... the equivalent for a city with walls would be beyond the city gate...outside the gate of the temple would not correspond to being outside the camp...it would be more like being outside of the courtyard of the tabernacle... so the analogy with being outside the camp really argues against the idea that jesus could have been viewed in any way as having been crucified in jerusalem...

oh and one more thing...in the torah being sent outside the camp was pretty much synonymous from being cut off from the nation of israel...and daniel 9:26 prophesies that the messiah will be 'cut off'

Sure are using alotta OT references and outside of Rev references to Interpret that one verse in Revelation.

I thought the book could interpret itself.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

this is probably off topic...though you never know when something might be relevant...but i just noticed something interesting...

according to the map i am looking at...the particular gate of jerusalem that jesus would have been taken through to reach golgotha for crucifixion was known in new testament times as the 'judgment gate'

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Sure are using alotta OT references and outside of Rev references to Interpret that one verse in Revelation.

I thought the book could interpret itself.

many of the -symbols- in the book do interpret themselves...but i think john assumed his readers were aware of basic understandings of geography in biblical times...such as what it meant to be outside the city gate...modern readers might need a little bit of help though...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Sure are using alotta OT references and outside of Rev references to Interpret that one verse in Revelation.

I thought the book could interpret itself.

however if you want an example from revelation itself...i have one...

revelation 22:14..."Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city."

according to this verse...a person entered 'into the city' by going through the gates...

 

[1still_waters]

however if you want an example from revelation itself...i have one...

revelation 22:14..."Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city."

according to this verse...a person entered 'into the city' by going through the gates...

So which city is Rev referring to when it says the great city Jesus was crucified in?

 

[zone]

Zone I would like to hear you address heb 13:12 in relation to the great city of Revelation.
It is a legit point in my mind.

i really don't see the problem
the outskirts of Jerusalem were still called Jerusalem.
your point that the burnt sacrifices had to be disposed of outside the camp is self-evident that it was still considered a necessary part of the Levitical system; therefore, Jerusalem.

yes? no? i wonder where the notion comes from that we need to say it wasn't Jerusalem.

where exactly are we attempting to say He was crucified when Revelation tell us His crucifixion was precisely the same place - CITY - which is called Spiritually Sodom and Egypt?

what CITY would that be?

is the worldwide christian church (apostate or otherwise) a city?
even if we say, yes, she belongs to New Jerusalem, the other holy city - are we saying Jesus was crucified THERE?
is God calling Heavenly Jerusalem Sodom & Egypt? He doesn't do it anywhere else.

was Jesus taken all the way to Rome and crucified?

are there not enough passages on God through the prophets equating earthly Jerusalem with an harlot; sodom; egypt; gomorrah?

i'd like to see the passages where the prophets apply the awful names to pagan nations or the church.
wait...hold up - they prophesied to Israel.

the suggestion that Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem (even outside the gate of the walled city, but on the outskirts) - seems nigh on heretical to me. you'd have to deny pretty much all the Gospel accounts; the sermons and words of the Apostles in Acts, etc.

not to mention Daniel & Revelation.

Daniel 9
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Daniel 9 covers the earthly city Jerusalem...Jesus coming and being killed....right through to her desolation - which we already saw in all the other passages. didn't we

seems pretty clear.

but if you have a burning desire to deny earthly Jerusalem was what God said she was, and that that very city is where our Lord was crucified......well....cough.

and that's all i got to say about that.
for now

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

So which city is Rev referring to when it says the great city Jesus was crucified in?

it has to be a figurative or spiritual 'great city'...since it is just a matter of historical fact that jesus was not actually crucified in a city...

this also lines up with the fact that the city of God is likewise a spiritual or heavenly city according to hebrews 11:8-16...

and i will add that the word 'figuratively' actually is used in the same sentence as 'where their lord was crucified' in revelation...

 

[1still_waters]

it has to be a figurative or spiritual 'great city'...since it is just a matter of historical fact that jesus was not actually crucified in a city...

this also lines up with the fact that the city of God is likewise a spiritual or heavenly city according to hebrews 11:8-16...

So Jesus was crucified in a figurative spiritual great city?

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

So Jesus was crucified in a figurative spiritual great city?

well -literally- he was crucified in the judean countryside outside of any city...

figuratively jesus could be said to have been crucified in 'the world'...which spiritually speaking is the exact opposite of the kingdom of heaven and city of God... conceptually you could compare this with matthew 13:38 where the 'sons of the kingdom' are contrasted with the 'sons of the evil one'...there are always two teams...two spiritual kingdoms...two spiritual cities...

and like i said in an edit to my previous post after you responded...it would not be breaking any grammatical rule to apply the word 'figuratively' in revelation 11:8 to the entire rest of the sentence...including the phrase 'where also their lord was crucified'

 

[zone]

Revelation was a New Testament document, but it was written as the last Old Testament document to that last generation of Old Covenant Israel; before the Temple was destroyed in 70 a d. John wrote it in the style of the ancient Prophets of Israel, using the symbolic and prophetic language of these same Prophets. It was not written for anyone in the 21st century to try to understand it by the way we reason or know things in our day! It was not meant to match up to what Jerusalem means in your mind today! This scroll Jesus was given, He unsealed in 30 ad; it has nothing to do with any of us in the 21st century. Jerusalem, was the Great Holy City of God; it had now become Babylon the Great Harlot. Stop taking the text out of it's historical setting and putting in in your day like your the great hero's of God! 30 ad to 70 ad was a special generation! It was the last generation of Old Covenant Israel and the 1st generation of New Covenant Israel at the same time; keep the prophetic text in it's historical setting. No one except bad teaching has given anyone the right to move it to the, 18th, 19th 20th, 21st Century's!

well, these prophets certainly identified Jerusalem as an harlot - with daughters; and they used the names Egypt & Sodom.

Ezekiel 23:2
1The word of the LORD came to me again, saying, 2"Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother; 3and they played the harlot in Egypt. They played the harlot in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and there their virgin bosom was handled.

Ezekiel 16:45
You are a true daughter of your mother, who despised her husband and her children; and you are a true sister of your sisters, who despised their husbands and their children. Your mother was a Hittite and your father an Amorite.

Ezekiel 16:46
Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom.

Ezekiel 23:3
They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. In that land their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed.

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

presumably the faithful remnant who received the Revelation would recognize the identification Sodom and Egypt from generations past. and they would know here Jesus was crucified.

kind of a stretch to think John would be projecting 2000 years into the future referencing America.

the Christians had the scriptures. those prophets were their prophets.
i reckon that's why the wicked apostates killed their prophets - didn't like the names