Mystery Babylon

[PlainWord]

Rome would eventually become a majority Christian nation. Under Constantine, the entire Roman empire would be nearly 60% Christian and Christianity was declared the official religion in the Roman Empire. Thus Dan 7:27 was fulfilled.

Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.

Rome ceased being a beast forever!! No longer would it be a threat to God's people.

 

[PlainWord]

See what Peter says in Acts 3:

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet (JESUS) like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ (They were in 70 AD) 24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. (the days they were living in)

 

[Lanolin]

hmm

thanks for detailing that history its a lot for me to digest I dont know about anyone else...but my question is, so does present day Rome mean the Gods kingdom is now synomous with catholicism, since thats where its seat is and if so how to explain Jerusalem and Jews turning to Christ and present day Israel?


or is it protestants or non catholics that are represenative of Gods kingdom and the catholics that are apostate ones not the Jewish unbelievers.

if I get this straight, one argument goes that mystery babylon is rome and will be destroyed in the furture
the other is that its Jerusalem and that it was already destroyed.

It is kind of doing my head in. I think I need diagrams and flowcharts to make sense of it.

 

[PlainWord]

hmm

thanks for detailing that history its a lot for me to digest I dont know about anyone else...but my question is, so does present day Rome mean the Gods kingdom is now synomous with catholicism, since thats where its seat is and if so how to explain Jerusalem and Jews turning to Christ and present day Israel?


or is it protestants or non catholics that are represenative of Gods kingdom and the catholics that are apostate ones not the Jewish unbelievers.

if I get this straight, one argument goes that mystery babylon is rome and will be destroyed in the furture
the other is that its Jerusalem and that it was already destroyed.

It is kind of doing my head in. I think I need diagrams and flowcharts to make sense of it.

Being a protestant myself, I could not answer that question without bias. My ancestors were a mix of Quakers, Lutherans and Mennonites. The Catholics were extremely brutal to my forefathers who were mostly from Germany, France and England. So, I would state that the RCC does NOT represent the kingdom and that they, along with other Christian secs, are apostate. This does not mean ALL Catholics are bad, I do not believe that. I believe many are saved but many are also lost. Many do not uphold what I would consider traditional Christian values, like being pro life.

Having said that, I see no relevance to today's Christianity to any prophetic event in the Bible other than the fulfillment of the Dan 2 statue. Here we see there is no "seat" of Christianity, rather it becomes a great mountain (spiritual stronghold) which fills the whole earth and it lasts forever!! Remember, the Church, under Christ's leadership, ruled the earth with a rod of iron for centuries. From the 900s to the 1800s no modern nation had a king without the consent of the Church. Vast numbers of people were put to death for being heretics.

The infighting that went on from the 1500s starting with Martin Luther was brutal and lead to the 30 Year War and the 100 Years War. This fighting between Catholics and Protestants continued until the 1980s in Ireland. As bad as this was, and as monumental as it was for the past half millennium, I can find no reference to it in the Bible.

 

[PlainWord]

One of the many things lost on futurists is this:

Christ reserved His most torrid rebuke for the religious leaders of His day, the Sanhedrin, the Pharisees, Sadducees, etc. He called them, "Serpents and Brood of Vipers, Hypocrites, Sons of hell, Blind Guides who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel, and whitewashed tombs" - nice on the outside but rotten inside. Christ goes on to say, "All these things will come upon this generation." Christ says repeatedly, "WOE to you."

Yet, in spite of the direct and overwhelming evidence that Christ has these religious leaders in His sights when He speaks about His Wrath to come, futurists take this and apply it to modern Roman Catholics and the like. These people are 100 generations removed from those Christ was talking too and threatening and prophesying about.

In Mat 3, John the Baptist was first to warn these corrupt Jewish religious leaders of what was to come to them.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Jesus picks up the same message throughout. Nobody else was in focus. The 2,000 year old nation that was to be God's chosen people, was soon to end. The Bible is loaded with stories of this history yet are we to believe it's end gets nothing more than a passing mention? I tell everyone, all the apocalyptic prophesy dealt with the end of Israel. In Mat 24, Jesus does not give a single sign not consistent with first century Israel. He makes no mention of anything consistent with our 21st century world. No hint is given to a massive 2,000 year gap. Everything was said with urgency and immediacy.

The disciples couldn't stop talking about the pending return of Christ, yet if you read later early Church writers of the 2nd and 3rd century, there is no mention of it. In fact one of the earliest, post apostle writers says this:

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master-how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead." The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians Chapter IX.-Let Us Live with Christ.

He seems to indicate Christ had come and raised them from the dead. This was written between 105-115 AD.

 

[PlainWord]

Before Darby and Moody popularized this future "rapture" nonsense whereby we all get to fly to heaven without experiencing death, the Church believed "all men were destined for death." In the past year I've been studying my ancestry, thanks to a DNA test kit my wife bought me last Christmas. In so doing, I read the Last Will and Testaments of dozens of my ancestors who died before Darby began his charade. In so doing I learned all of them were devotedly Christian. I also learned these Wills were usually written a few years before their deaths. Do you know what struck me as most interesting?

To a man, not ONE of them made any mention of hoping to be spared death and that the Lord would come first. To a man they all quoted Heb 9:27 'And as it is appointed for men to die once.' THEY WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO IMMEDIATELY BEING IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD IN THEIR AFTERLIFE.

 

[PlainWord]

If you read the writings of Polycarp, who was being led to Rome to be burned at the stake in the early 2nd century, he isn't writing that he hope Christ returns before he has to endure this brutality. NO!! He's asking God to give him strength to endure it and he's looking forward to being immediately with His God upon his death. Of course the fires failed to consume his body so he was stabbed to death.. But still.

 

[PlainWord]

According to the Midrash, the Sun represents the King, the Moon represents the Sanhedrin and the Stars represent Rabbis.

In Matthew 24:29, the sun and moon darken and the stars fall from the sky. These astral omens are very similar to the heavenly signs said to accompany the fall of Judah in the sixth century B.C. (Jeremiah 4:23-26), the fall of Egypt in the sixth century B.C. (Ezekiel 32:7-9), the fall of Babylon in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 13:9-13), and the fall of Edom in the sixth century B.C. (Isaiah 34:4-5). And just as various heavenly omens marked a great slaughter at the fall of Judah, Egypt, Babylon and Edom in the sixth century B.C., the same thing is expected to occur at the fall of Jerusalem and Israel at the end of the age in 70 AD.

The fall of each of these cities in the 6th century BC as described mirrors the language of Mat 24 and Rev.

Jer 4 Destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon:

13 “Behold, he shall come up like clouds, And his chariots like a whirlwind. His horses are swifter than eagles. Woe to us, for we are plundered!” 14 O Jerusalem, wash your heart from wickedness, That you may be saved. 27 For thus says the Lord: “The whole land shall be desolate; Yet I will not make a full end. 28 For this shall the earth mourn, And the heavens above be black, Because I have spoken.

Ezk 32 Destruction of Egypt:

2 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of Egypt, and say to him...3 ‘Thus says the Lord God: "...And cause to settle on you all the birds of the heavens. And with you I will fill the beasts of the whole earth...7 When I put out your light, I will cover the heavens, and make its stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, And the moon shall not give her light.

Isa 13 Fall of Babylon:

The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw...9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 “I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the Lord of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

Isa 34 Fall of Edom:

4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom,
And on the people of My curse, for judgment. 6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood...

Thus there have been multiple "Days of the Lord" whereby He would intervene with divine judgment using foreign armies to execute His judgment. In each case, the invading armies were pagan. The language was apocalyptic containing cosmetic disturbances of seemingly world-ending in magnitude. Therefore should we expect Jesus to use similar language when He discusses the imminent fall of Jerusalem which happened in 70AD?

Mat 24 Fall of Jerusalem:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In each of these destructive judgments of wicked cities, the language is the same. The Presence of God and the Lamb in the case of 70 AD is common to each. There is no world-wide apocalyptic great tribulation as we understand it found in the Bible, so everyone MERRY CHRISTMAS.

 

[azamzimtoti]

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