Mysticism & righteousness

[StripeSocks]

Peter, I know the definition of grace and this is not it!

Try going to the Oxford dictionary and looking it up.
Once you have got a handle on that perhaps then we can try applying it in a theological context.

Tony Jay

The OED is supercool, but it's for Britspeak. We Americans use the American (ironic, eh?) Heritage Dictionary.

Or somesuch.


Is there a balanced mystic? I mean, can you be heterodox (whatever we decide that means)and mystical?

I don't maen a syncreticism of (say) Buddhism and Christianity

 

[miknik5]

Getting ones heart right and sorting out how you choose is the calling. Maybe you never read EG points or the rest.
Sin is sin, but walking in righteousness is seeing need and meeting it.

God does not demand "perfection" God asks us to learn love and let it out of our hearts. That is a purified heart.
I am simply saying this is possible, you can do it. Like forgiveness you talked about before, it takes time, but everyone can get there. Now it appears to me hyper-grace denies this or as Ben said desiring to sin less. This is just cynism and because he does not see the end goal. I am daring to say I do. Is that so hard to understand? People can taste, touch and feel it which is why we start to follow Christ. How is it after years, still people feel lost and empty, defeated without focus?

Is it because they have arrived but have not understood it, and are now dis-satisfied and want something more, rather than exploring what is, engaging with others, developing friendship, encouraging, serving and being with others. We so often want to be heros, when God says speak to that person in need there and just share, share love, share openness.

The world measures success, God measures love from the heart.

What is the "end goal"?

 

[miknik5]

I see the idea here. We have arrived all is safe, unless you agree, you are in need.
What I write is irrelevant because you are actually in heaven now, no change required. That is a mystics response.

Maybe one day you will understand, I doubt it. I think once you accept you do not have to do anything in response to the cross and Christ, the gospel will never touch you. That is the divide, because the idea of failure can never happen, or a bad conscience, or the Lord ever rejecting you. Fear is a sin, even fear of God. Judgement of God is taken for granted you have passed clean. But listen to Paul who was not arrogant at all

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
Phil 2:12

In your gospel this is being instructed to sin by Paul which means your ideas about fear and sin must be wrong, 100% wrong.

What your group loves to do is discredit people with absolutes and slide in a seemingly sensible idea but with a serious lie within it. Most do not care to look or see what is going on. Are there sheep here or is this just another distraction?

I appears nothing will move you guys because you have heard it all before and are set 100% where you are. Sin, you live with it. So I have to say I part understand you have no doubts or interest in really engaging just repeating the same words. So until we meet Jesus and Jesus tells you where you really are goodbye.

Everyone ALWAYS seems to leave at the remaining part of that scripture verse:

Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...

for it is GOD who worketh in you to will and to do HIS GOOD PLEASURE...

 

[miknik5]

There is a problem. Jesus is pointing at your heart needs to be sorted. If you are interested in cleaning your heart, then that is good. From the grace camp the count has been zero. Love from the heart, not interested.

All I hear is accept future sins are forgiven or no engagement. That is just refusal to believe the heart can be changed or even acknowledging there is a point to it. And anger is an interesting issue, but you again just want to block the point.
If you actually believed in emotional transformation you would go beyond this. But grace7 appears to be your teacher.

There is nothing else. The door is open, but most close it, thinking the sermon on the mount is condemning and not the key to the path. If you do not walk the path, there is no end. So I can say no more, that is the end of my witness and contribution. I came to learn and ask and find how people responded. You all have taught me well.

Without proper one to one engagement this medium does not work. There is so much more in knowing another than just these words, and everyone reflects their own problems back at themselves, which change all the benefits.

God bless you, and may Christ lead you into life.

Is that what you "hear"?
Accept future sins?

How about accepting this:

Whoever confesses their sins HE is faithful and just to purify us of all unrighteousness...
Or this as well, he who hopes in HIM purifies themselves even as HE is pure?

And I guess that is the whole point:

the DOOR is open...and those who belong to HIM have already entered in...and there is one work that all the sheep must do...that is to REMAIN IN HIM...and not "go out" from HIM...


What DOOR HE opens no man can close...
And what DOOR HE closes no man can open...

 

[StripeSocks]

chennae91 knows the answer to my riddel, if anyone's wondering. it was'nt entirely a good (or really, bad) joke. it is to illustrate

some
thing​

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

:smoke: weve heared from those old folks in the valley that there is
someone before speaking as it is realy sound weird
because the story tells that he is willing to become evil in order for everyone
in the valley shall remain in the good side ... .

:8) he sacrificed himself unto the abyss along with all the evil things inside him
and never came back according to the old folks on that valley . ...

as we remember this we also searched
the holy scriptures if there were such a verse that explained about
the story of those old folks in the valley ... .

:happy: as it is written
:read:
Isaiah 9:2
The people who walk in darkness will see a bright light. The light will shine on those who live in the land of death's shadow.

:ty:

godbless us all always

Oh! Is that folklore from where you are from? It's a story I wish I could read!
The old folks had the ending wrong didn't they? He did come back but it is not our human eyes that see Him!
I have to work hard to understand your posts but they are so interesting sometimes! It's worth the extra effort.

The apostle PAUl would have told the old folks in the valley, I have met this man! He DID come back! And He wants to meet you!

There is an old folklore from the region of Mexico (maybe from the Mayans) that one day a giant spider web will encompass the whole earth. Everyone will be caught in this spider web. It is quite amazing, because of the internet being called The World Wide Web!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Peter, if you come back, I had a few thoughts upon waking this morning I want to share with you.
Just because you see that something is a bit wrong in someones belief framework does not mean they are heretics.
They are on a journey to know God better just like you are.
We all have some wrong thoughts and supposings, me and you included.
We don't have to get angry about that. We just ask God to show us.

I believe their thoughts (and when I say "their", I mean brothers who believe God does not ever want, or permit, us to ever be sick) are not right. I have seen with my own eyes and in my own experience that He purifies us through sufferings and sicknesses and ailments - both our own and others who we love.

I have seen the kicking and flailing and asking God WHY??! And I have also seen the purification that comes when we get to the place of calm peace and trust, even amid the sufferings.

But we can't beat each other up. If someone is not ready to bear this truth, God will see to it when they are ready.

I have seen other things also that they believe that I in no way agree is correct. But I trust God to correct them. As for me, I look for whatever is lovely, whatever we both know and agree on, whatever can strengthen us together.

We ALL have some wrong thoughts about God, Peter. But walking in love is what our Lord commands.

 

[ukok102nak]

Oh! Is that folklore from where you are from? It's a story I wish I could read!
The old folks had the ending wrong didn't they? He did come back but it is not our human eyes that see Him!
I have to work hard to understand your posts but they are so interesting sometimes! It's worth the extra effort.

The apostle PAUl would have told the old folks in the valley, I have met this man! He DID come back! And He wants to meet you!

There is an old folklore from the region of Mexico (maybe from the Mayans) that one day a giant spider web will encompass the whole earth. Everyone will be caught in this spider web. It is quite amazing, because of the internet being called The World Wide Web!

:smoke: nice to hear it from you ... .
its an old tale and perhaps a folklore as youve said
though some of those old folks here were just weird especially in the mountains
for some of them doesnt know how to read nor doesnt even know how to write
but they know the holy scriptures
much more than any of us . ...

:8) they just put it in some kind of story
like the tales of the unknown people ( which is different from the first one )
where we never realise from the start
as we dont have any idea what they were talking
telling us about those undead creatures from the past
then we just got amazed because it is really written as it is
and the only thing we could prove it is to
:read:
Hebrews 11:33
Through faith they conquered kingdoms, did what God approved, and received what God had promised. They shut the mouths of lions,
34*put out raging fires, and escaped death. They found strength when they were weak. They were powerful in battle and defeated other armies.
35*Women received their loved ones back from the dead. Other believers were brutally tortured but refused to be released so that they might gain eternal life.
36*Some were made fun of and whipped, and some were chained and put in prison.
37*Some were stoned to death, sawed in half, and killed with swords. Some wore the skins of sheep and goats. Some were poor, abused, and mistreated.
38*The world didn't deserve these good people. Some wandered around in deserts and mountains and lived in caves and holes in the ground.
39*All these people were known for their faith, but none of them received what God had promised.
40*God planned to give us something very special so that we would gain eternal life with them.

:ty:

godbless us all always

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe we have to add patience to our faith in order to receive in this life the things that have been freely given to us by God.

The proper understanding of the gift of righteousness in Christ frees us to believe all that the Lord has bought for us with His blood.

We have an enemy in this world and we live in a world that is fallen and evil. If we are going to rise above these enemies - we will need to stand on what God says about our situations and not on our experiences.

God doesn't bring these things on us - He does however make all things work for our good as we trust in Him no matter what comes against us.

Jesus said "If your child asks for a fish - would you give him a snake? - if you being evil know how to give good things - how much more does your Father give good things to those that ask Him?" God's word will always be true no matter how much it appears not to be true in our lives.

Hebrews 6:11-12 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end,

[SUP]12 [/SUP] so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

[Grandpa]

It makes perfect sense for people who think they work for their own righteousness and maintain their own 'salvation' to call real Christianity 'mysticism' and 'gnostic'.

Because they don't understand it.

They can't.

2 Corinthians 3:14-16
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

That seems kind of mystic, doesn't it? There is a vail over your mind when you read the old testament. The only way you can truly understand the old testament is when you come to Christ.

Coming to Christ is pretty mystic too, isn't it? Its not like you can go to Jerusalem and meet Him in the garden of Olives or anything like that. The only way (that I know of) to come to Christ is in prayer.



2 Corinthians 3:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[SUP] 6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


That seems pretty mystical too, doesn't it? Kind of spiritual... We aren't sufficient of ourselves but our sufficiency is of God... The letter kills but the Spirit gives life...

I can see how people who would rather work at their own righteousness by their own understanding would think Christianity is mystical.

 

[Grandpa]

If you don't like Grace you call it hyper-grace.

If you don't like imputed righteousness you call it mystic righteousness.

What else about Christianity don't you like? What else about Christianity do you want to change to make more like the old way of Judaism, and therefore no Christianity at all?

It doesn't really matter. Call it what you want.

 

[StripeSocks]

I should tell you a folktale about Anansi, the SpiderGod of some African cultures. But alas, no one would read it. HwVrySd4me

 

[StripeSocks]

He is. Mn is bankrupt and God is All.

 

[FreeNChrist]

It makes perfect sense for people who think they work for their own righteousness and maintain their own 'salvation' to call real Christianity 'mysticism' and 'gnostic'.

Because they don't understand it.

They can't.

2 Corinthians 3:14-16
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

That seems kind of mystic, doesn't it? There is a vail over your mind when you read the old testament. The only way you can truly understand the old testament is when you come to Christ.

Coming to Christ is pretty mystic too, isn't it? Its not like you can go to Jerusalem and meet Him in the garden of Olives or anything like that. The only way (that I know of) to come to Christ is in prayer.

2 Corinthians 3:5-6
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[SUP] 6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

That seems pretty mystical too, doesn't it? Kind of spiritual... We aren't sufficient of ourselves but our sufficiency is of God... The letter kills but the Spirit gives life...

I can see how people who would rather work at their own righteousness by their own understanding would think Christianity is mystical.

That's right. The problem is as Luther said, "The sin underneath all our sins is the lie of the serpent that we cannot trust the love and grace of Christ and that we must take matters into our own hands.”

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Re: Mysticism & righteousness & humoR

I wouldn't even know where to start to try and understand what this post means...

It was a story/riddle. Two men die. Both see the same sign afterwards but one thinks it says "HELL" and the other thinks it says "GAS STATION" and it's a gas station he recognizes from his time on earth.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

:smoke: nice to hear it from you ... .
its an old tale and perhaps a folklore as youve said
though some of those old folks here were just weird especially in the mountains
for some of them doesnt know how to read nor doesnt even know how to write
but they know the holy scriptures
much more than any of us . ...

:8) they just put it in some kind of story
like the tales of the unknown people ( which is different from the first one )
where we never realise from the start
as we dont have any idea what they were talking
telling us about those undead creatures from the past
then we just got amazed because it is really written as it is
and the only thing we could prove it is to
:read:
Hebrews 11:33
Through faith they conquered kingdoms, did what God approved, and received what God had promised. They shut the mouths of lions,
34*put out raging fires, and escaped death. They found strength when they were weak. They were powerful in battle and defeated other armies.
35*Women received their loved ones back from the dead. Other believers were brutally tortured but refused to be released so that they might gain eternal life.
36*Some were made fun of and whipped, and some were chained and put in prison.
37*Some were stoned to death, sawed in half, and killed with swords. Some wore the skins of sheep and goats. Some were poor, abused, and mistreated.
38*The world didn't deserve these good people. Some wandered around in deserts and mountains and lived in caves and holes in the ground.
39*All these people were known for their faith, but none of them received what God had promised.
40*God planned to give us something very special so that we would gain eternal life with them.

:ty:

godbless us all always

I am laughing! They don't know how to read but know the scriptures better than some who read them all the time! They heard the Gospel and met and received the Holy Spirit who guides to all truth!

I have met many men who are so well versed in theology but have never met or received this Spirit! It makes you laugh with wonder...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I should tell you a folktale about Anansi, the SpiderGod of some African cultures. But alas, no one would read it. HwVrySd4me

I would read it!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That's right. The problem is as Luther said, "The sin underneath all our sins is the lie of the serpent that we cannot trust the love and grace of Christ and that we must take matters into our own hands.”

Yes. Sometimes also though, I find that it isn't that I don't believe what God has said, but rather I worry that what He has said won't be what I desire.

For instance, to not worry about food, drink, shelter (what we will eat and wear) - provision in other words - sometimes it isn't that I worry I will starve to death but that He will not give me as MUCH as I DESIRE.

The problem then is not unbelief. It is the lust of my eyes, which always wants more than I have.

 

[psalm6819]

Two stages of salvation
1. Washed, purified and cleansed
2. Our response, our walk, our faith, our hope.

So much of scripture says you are called, but your response needs to be real, and consistent.
It is not so much you earn salvation that you prove the work Christ has done in you.

As believers we cannot improve upon it but we can waste it, ignore it, throw it away.
The whole point of salvation is that we learn to walk as independent children of God freely loving
and caring. If we cannot do this, like a chick when it leaves the nest it flys, then we are still
born. You could say God is brutal, but that is the privilege and the risk. No safe place here.

A phrase like "You must carry your cross daily or you are not worthy of me"
or "Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it."Matt 10:39

This is tough stuff, not believe in me, praise and prayer and it will just roll to you, no effort involved.

Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
1 John 5:5

Doing the mystic route you become a friend of the world, learn how to shop for relaxation, not
reject greed and the easy life but live for truth and love.

I am reporting this post, Mr Jens, you should be ashamed of yourself and BTW there's no two step process involved in salvation

ONE way-Jesus

 

[FreeNChrist]

Yes. Sometimes also though, I find that it isn't that I don't believe what God has said, but rather I worry that what He has said won't be what I desire.

For instance, to not worry about food, drink, shelter (what we will eat and wear) - provision in other words - sometimes it isn't that I worry I will starve to death but that He will not give me as MUCH as I DESIRE.

The problem then is not unbelief. It is the lust of my eyes, which always wants more than I have.

If you are in Christ and Christ is in you then He's already given you everything you truly desire. The rest is just gravy.