Nature of man --- a different biblical perspective worth considering ( part 1)

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jul 11, 2020
137
38
28
#61
"Nehemiah6, posted

This is PATENTLY FALSE. All references to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are in the MASCULINE gender. The Feminists hate this, but Christians do not.[/QUOTE]


The issue of feminism does not arise here. I did not say in my op that God is not our father. In fact, the Fatherhood of God is not in question, for it runs through the scripture and is quite understandable.

The God Almighty is our maker, the creator of all that exists. The Supreme Power and the Sustainer of all existence. Every creature is dependent on Him. He is our father by nature and Jesus Christ reveals and shows us how to live and maintain this father - son relationship. We must appreciate the fact that God, most times in the scripture reveals Himself to us in a way we can understand, in view of our limited knowledge. In this particular case, we can understand Him by analogy with human family unit. (Here, He portrays His male attributes as Father.)

For us who believe in the Trinity, we know that God the Father is also the Son and the Holy Spirit. Here, He shows His Deity in His unity. The bible is very clear on this but it is difficult for some people to understand.

In the same way, He also manifests His attributes in what we, human call "feminine" attributes such as , Care, Nurture, Compassion, Humility, Faithfulness etc. His attributes are the same as His nature/ character.

We know from the scripture that God is not a man. (Numbers 23:19). His thoughts are not our thoughts neither his ways our ways ( Isaiah 55:8). He transcends our distinction between the sexes. He is neither a man nor a woman. He is God/Spirit.

When Christ Jesus enjoins us in Matthew 23:9 not to call any man our father upon the earth, for one is our father which is in heaven, does he not know that there are people who are called fathers on earth? He knows definitely but spiritual things have spiritual connotations. And here, he was speaking about the spiritual not the flesh and we need spiritual understanding to grasp his meaning.
 
Jul 3, 2015
32,049
10,174
113
#62
This man, Adam, is Spirit - driven and incapable of sinning as he does not have the capacity, tendency or ability to sin. He has dominion and the earth is in subjection to him. It is only in this state or nature that Adam can fulfil the perfect will of God. And, this state of Adam is the true selfhood of man. It is this state of oneness Jesus showed us how to live and the Spirit continues to show us. This is the perfect man God wants us to become.
Are you saying Adam was incapable of sinning? Sin entered the world through one man: Adam.
 
Jul 8, 2018
4,664
691
113
#63
[QUOTE="Adstar, posted

]I will condense it down for everyone..

This is just another in a long line of Sinlessness in the flesh preachers that come into CC telling everyone that people can live a perfect sinless life in their current flesh in this world..

I don't know where this cult originates from but it seems to attract a lot of adherents who then go out to preach it online.. Sadly they do get their fair share of converts to their religion it seems..


It is really sad that after more than 2000 years our Lord Jesus came, we are yet to grasp the understanding he declared to us and the Cross he carried. Please do not call it cult because you do not understand it. The bible is very clear that it is possible for us to live sinless in this world. It is possible to live in the environment of God here on earth if you understand what God's environment is.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't the scriptures say that Jesus was the only man without sin?
 
Jul 11, 2020
137
38
28
#64
"infinitekhanol, posted

The issue of feminism does not arise here. I did not say in my op that God is not our father. In fact, the Fatherhood of God is not in question, for it runs through the scripture and is quite understandable.

The God Almighty is our maker, the creator of all that exists. The Supreme Power and the Sustainer of all existence. Every creature is dependent on Him. He is our father by nature and Jesus Christ reveals and shows us how to live and maintain this father - son relationship. We must appreciate the fact that God, most times in the scripture reveals Himself to us in a way we can understand, in view of our limited knowledge. In this particular case, we can understand Him by analogy with human family unit. (Here, He portrays His male attributes as Father.)

For us who believe in the Trinity, we know that God the Father is also the Son and the Holy Spirit. Here, He shows His Deity in His unity. The bible is very clear on this but it is difficult for some people to understand.

In the same way, He also manifests His attributes in what we, human call "feminine" attributes such as , Care, Nurture, Compassion, Humility, Faithfulness etc. His attributes are the same as His nature/ character.

We know from the scripture that God is not a man. (Numbers 23:19). His thoughts are not our thoughts neither his ways our ways ( Isaiah 55:8). He transcends our distinction between the sexes. He is neither a man nor a woman. He is God/Spirit.

When Christ Jesus enjoins us in Matthew 23:9 not to call any man our father upon the earth, for one is our father which is in heaven, does he not know that there are people who are called fathers on earth? He knows definitely but spiritual things have spiritual connotations. And here, he was speaking about the spiritual not the flesh and we need spiritual understanding to grasp his meaning.[/QUOTE]


When we join ourselves unto the Lord, we become one spirit ,the bible says in 1 Corinthians 6:17.) And in Christ Jesus, there is neither male nor female, neither Jew nor Greek ----------- (Galatians 3:28).

We must reach that level of spirituality where our actions are solely determined by the Holy Spirit.
 
Jul 11, 2020
137
38
28
#66
[QUOTE="posthuman, posted

it's Genesis 5:2 -- in Hebrew the name "Adam" is the same as the word for "man" or "mankind" -- Adam being the first man, you can see why the language may have developed this way.[/QUOTE]


Adam remains the first man if you read my post well. The op did not say Adam is not the first man in creation.
 
Jul 11, 2020
137
38
28
#67
posthuman, posted

God disagrees with you on this point. see Romans 8.
we, and all of creation, eagerly await the final redemption of our bodies.


Christ was bodily resurrected. we are bipartite beings, a soul inhabiting a body. though God defines personhood, existence, life & death not in terms of the flesh but of the spirit, the flesh is not inconsequential. [/QUOTE]


Yes, but not because our sins are not forgiven or that we are not reconciled with God our Father. ( our understanding of that scripture may differ anyway)

I did not say in my op that Christ Jesus was not bodily resurrected. My op did not dwell on the "parts" of the soul, otherwise, that aspect of the body would have been mentioned. Of course the "flesh" is not inconsequential in the order of creation but when it is laced with the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life, it becomes inconsequential and profits nothing.
 
Jul 11, 2020
137
38
28
#69
"Magenta, posted

Are you saying Adam was incapable of sinning? Sin entered the world through one man: Adam.[/QUOTE]

The Adam that was wholly Spirit - driven is incapable of sinning. If you notice in the garden of Eden, before Eve was made, Adam had a perfect relationship with God. Sin entered when Eve, the woman was introduced. The second part of my op shows why this is so.
 
Jul 31, 2013
28,505
8,864
113
#70
We perish for lack of understanding.
i hope it's clear that i agree man is not merely dust but a soul, quickened by the breath of the spirit of life.
an hallmark of classical gnosticism is the teaching that the body is either (1) of no consequence or (2) evil or (3) some combination of bad & irrelevant.


The only reason man continues to sin is his belief in the material sense of things, or belief of flesh. For the flesh, as it is written, is an enemy of God and is not subject to the law of God. It is earthy and sensual and tends to vanity only.
so this statement in the OP raises a red flag for me, and for that reason i pointed out that Christ was bodily resurrected -- God deems this so important that in Luke 24 He proves it is Him by showing His hands and feet, and eating a fish. Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, points at His flesh as evidence that He is who He is.

just as we may perish for hoping our soul will be saved while failing to recognize that we have a soul, we may likewise perish for lack of understanding that the body will be raised, just as Jesus was raised: in the flesh.

do you believe this?
 
Jul 31, 2013
28,505
8,864
113
#71
i hope it's clear that i agree man is not merely dust but a soul, quickened by the breath of the spirit of life.
an hallmark of classical gnosticism is the teaching that the body is either (1) of no consequence or (2) evil or (3) some combination of bad & irrelevant.




so this statement in the OP raises a red flag for me, and for that reason i pointed out that Christ was bodily resurrected -- God deems this so important that in Luke 24 He proves it is Him by showing His hands and feet, and eating a fish. Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, points at His flesh as evidence that He is who He is.

just as we may perish for hoping our soul will be saved while failing to recognize that we have a soul, we may likewise perish for lack of understanding that the body will be raised, just as Jesus was raised: in the flesh.

do you believe this?
all this should raise an immediate, obvious question: why?

why does God make man in the manner of {dust + spirit = living soul}
when man is poisoned with sin, why does God first redeem him with a new spirit?
why does God later redeem also the body, physically resurrecting us?

something about man having a physical body of flesh is important to God. so important that He Himself comes in one to reconcile man to Himself. so important that even though the flesh is poisoned with death, God renews and resurrects it.
why?
 
Jul 31, 2013
28,505
8,864
113
#72
all this should raise an immediate, obvious question: why?

why does God make man in the manner of {dust + spirit = living soul}
when man is poisoned with sin, why does God first redeem him with a new spirit?
why does God later redeem also the body, physically resurrecting us?


something about man having a physical body of flesh is important to God. so important that He Himself comes in one to reconcile man to Himself. so important that even though the flesh is poisoned with death, God renews and resurrects it.
why?
more questions:

is a view that the body is irrelevant compatible with these things God does regarding the body?
is the view that the flesh is inherently evil & should not be considered as part of man, compatible with the resurrection?
 
Jul 3, 2015
32,049
10,174
113
#73
"Magenta, posted

Are you saying Adam was incapable of sinning? Sin entered the world through one man: Adam.

The Adam that was wholly Spirit - driven is incapable of sinning. If you notice in the garden of Eden, before Eve was made, Adam had a perfect relationship with God. Sin entered when Eve, the woman was introduced. The second part of my op shows why this is so.
Scripture specifically says sin entered through Adam.

How do you figure Adam, before Eve was made, was wholly spirit?

He was fashioned out of the dust of the ground.
 
Jul 31, 2013
28,505
8,864
113
#76
Yes, but not because our sins are not forgiven or that we are not reconciled with God our Father. ( our understanding of that scripture may differ anyway)

I did not say in my op that Christ Jesus was not bodily resurrected. My op did not dwell on the "parts" of the soul, otherwise, that aspect of the body would have been mentioned. Of course the "flesh" is not inconsequential in the order of creation but when it is laced with the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life, it becomes inconsequential and profits nothing.
you said this:

Even after the fall, with the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, his death, and resurrection, He restored us back to that pre -fall position if we really understand his teachings /the cross. We still perish today for lack of understanding.
that is not correct. our bodies are not without sin. they decay; that's death in them: that's evidence that we are not yet completely redeemed. Adam and his wife did not decay until death entered the world.
 
Jul 31, 2013
28,505
8,864
113
#77
Of course the "flesh" is not inconsequential in the order of creation but when it is laced with the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and pride of life, it becomes inconsequential and profits nothing.
being without profit is not equal to being of no consequence.

God would not have come in the flesh if the flesh was irrelevant.
He did not resurrect in order to destroy the body, but that it might be saved by rising from death with Him.
((that part hasn't happened yet -- per Romans 8))


He came to save sinners -- there aren't any other kinds of people but sinners -- and sinners, all of us, have bodies laced with sin. there is no good thing dwelling in the flesh; it has no profit compared to the Word of life. for some reason it is God's intention to redeem that profitless flesh.

why?
and why not immediately, but only later, when He returns?

why give us a new heart and foretaste of the Spirit, but leave us in this flesh that is contrary to our spirit, while we wait, looking toward Him?
 
Jul 11, 2020
137
38
28
#78
"posthuman, posted

i hope it's clear that i agree man is not merely dust but a soul, quickened by the breath of the spirit of life.
an hallmark of classical gnosticism is the teaching that the body is either (1) of no consequence or (2) evil or (3) some combination of bad & irrelevant.




so this statement in the OP raises a red flag for me, and for that reason i pointed out that Christ was bodily resurrected -- God deems this so important that in Luke 24 He proves it is Him by showing His hands and feet, and eating a fish. Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, points at His flesh as evidence that He is who He is.

just as we may perish for hoping our soul will be saved while failing to recognize that we have a soul, we may likewise perish for lack of understanding that the body will be raised, just as Jesus was raised: in the flesh.

do you believe this? [/QUOTE


I believe I am not dust. Rather, I am God's image and likeness.

Well I can see, you are implying things I did not say in my op.
 
Jul 31, 2013
28,505
8,864
113
#79
I believe I am not dust.
sure :)

but that leaves questions:


why did God give you a body of dust before breathing life into it?
why did God come in the flesh Himself?
why did Christ resurrect in the flesh?
why will God finally redeem your body at the resurrection?
 
Jul 3, 2015
32,049
10,174
113
#80
Even after the fall, with the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, his death, and resurrection, He restored us back to that pre -fall position if we really understand his teachings /the cross. We still perish today for lack of understanding.
that is not correct. our bodies are not without sin. they decay; that's death in them: that's evidence that we are not yet completely redeemed. Adam and his wife did not decay until death entered the world.
You are correct, post :) But of course ;):D

Pre-fall, man was not born again of the Spirit, as they had not eaten of the Tree of Life.

Adam and Eve chose to eat from the forbidden tree instead.