Need clarity regarding this Predestination thing and something related to an election?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Milee777

Active member
Dec 24, 2018
102
44
28
#1
What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
33,798
5,157
113
#2
What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..
There are two words primarily applied unto the saved....the words "elect" and "saints" both words are viewed in the following light....

a. The word elect is descriptive of the saved as being "CHOSEN" in Christ

b. The word saint is descriptive of who we are in Christ as "HOLY"

There is a deep divide upon the usage of the word elect and predestination....

My view.....before God cast down the world in creation he predetermined that all who would come to him through faith in Christ would be "elected/chosen" as sons and daughters of God and given eternal life.

That is the basic concept of the word IMV......
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
7,089
1,364
113
#3
What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..
Depending on context "the elect" can mean (a) specific individuals, (b) the believing remnant of Israel, and (c) all believers in Christ.

Divine election is according to God's foreknowledge (1 Pet 1:2), which means that those who would believe and obey the Gospel would be elected or predestined for perfection and glorification.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [elect] to be conformed to the image of his Son, [perfected] that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:29,30).

Election is NOT for salvation, since God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:3,4)
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
310
83
#4
Unconditional Election

So then it does not depend on the man who wills (accepts Christ) or the man who runs (works savation) , but on God who has mercy. Matt. 11:27

God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

You only have to read the Potter and pots verses in Romans 9 to understand election, for it says plainly that God, the Potter, has made SOME pots for glory (salvation) and SOME pots for destruction (no explanation needed on that word!).......then in v21 Paul goes on to ask "why has He done this?", and the answer is so that HIS glory might be made manifest to HIS ELECT. (So that His elect will see His sovereign glory in all that He does and give HIM the adoration He alone deserves)

Also His elect know that they could have been the ones made for destruction, knowing that in themselves they could not be worthy.
 

Milee777

Active member
Dec 24, 2018
102
44
28
#5
Unconditional Election

So then it does not depend on the man who wills (accepts Christ) or the man who runs (works savation) , but on God who has mercy. Matt. 11:27

God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

You only have to read the Potter and pots verses in Romans 9 to understand election, for it says plainly that God, the Potter, has made SOME pots for glory (salvation) and SOME pots for destruction (no explanation needed on that word!).......then in v21 Paul goes on to ask "why has He done this?", and the answer is so that HIS glory might be made manifest to HIS ELECT. (So that His elect will see His sovereign glory in all that He does and give HIM the adoration He alone deserves)

Also His elect know that they could have been the ones made for destruction, knowing that in themselves they could not be worthy.
What if i were the vessel of wrath? What must my attitude be then? How must i live this life after this knowledge?
 

Milee777

Active member
Dec 24, 2018
102
44
28
#6
Unconditional Election

So then it does not depend on the man who wills (accepts Christ) or the man who runs (works savation) , but on God who has mercy. Matt. 11:27

God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

You only have to read the Potter and pots verses in Romans 9 to understand election, for it says plainly that God, the Potter, has made SOME pots for glory (salvation) and SOME pots for destruction (no explanation needed on that word!).......then in v21 Paul goes on to ask "why has He done this?", and the answer is so that HIS glory might be made manifest to HIS ELECT. (So that His elect will see His sovereign glory in all that He does and give HIM the adoration He alone deserves)

Also His elect know that they could have been the ones made for destruction, knowing that in themselves they could not be worthy.
And how would you explain the verse which says about how God wants that 'all' are brought to repentance
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
310
83
#7
What if i were the vessel of wrath? What must my attitude be then? How must i live this life after this knowledge?
If you are seeking after truth you may very well be that vessel of glory. We all started somewhere, none of us knew the docrines of grace when we were born again. It's a journey to knowing who we are IN Christ.

So I how do you live your life? By the word of truth, ......."study to be approved as a workman who is able to handle accurately the word of truth." 2 Tim 2:15
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
7,089
1,364
113
#8
You only have to read the Potter and pots verses in Romans 9 to understand election, for it says plainly that God, the Potter, has made SOME pots for glory (salvation) and SOME pots for destruction (no explanation needed on that word!)
This is a misapplication of the Scripture in question. What it simply means is that God -- IN HIS DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE -- knows in advance who will repent and believe and who will not. Therefore He already knows who will be saved and who will be damned.

God DOES NOT elect any for either salvation or damnation, since that would violate the Gospel and the character of God. God desires all men to be saved, that is why He commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent (Acts 17:30).

Did God consign Pharaoh to Hell, or did Pharaoh consign himself to Hell by Hi evil thoughts and deeds? Did God consign Lucifer to Hell, or did Lucifer and his evil angels consign themselves to Hell, which was created for the devil and his angels?
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
310
83
#9
And how would you explain the verse which says about how God wants that 'all' are brought to repentance
ALL.....a trip word for the unlearned.
Go to the verse, look at who is speaking and who are they speaking to? (Peter to "beloved" believers)
"God does not wish for any of YOU to perish but for all to come to repentance"

So the 'any" is a select group...the group Peter is addressing.
the ALL is likewise confined to that group Peter is addressing.

(If I say "look at all the ducks in that pond", do I mean all the ducks in the whole world or do I mean a group of ducks specific to that pond?) Context is the means to understanding and the small words are as important as the big ones.

It actually just reads that God did not with any of them to perish but to come to repentence.
A statement of a fact. God was not willing and God does not lose any that He has chosen.
You can't read it like it is something they have yet to do because that makes no sense.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
1,108
310
83
#10
This is a misapplication of the Scripture in question. What it simply means is that God -- IN HIS DIVINE FOREKNOWLEDGE -- knows in advance who will repent and believe and who will not. Therefore He already knows who will be saved and who will be damned.

God DOES NOT elect any for either salvation or damnation, since that would violate the Gospel and the character of God. God desires all men to be saved, that is why He commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent (Acts 17:30).

Did God consign Pharaoh to Hell, or did Pharaoh consign himself to Hell by Hi evil thoughts and deeds? Did God consign Lucifer to Hell, or did Lucifer and his evil angels consign themselves to Hell, which was created for the devil and his angels?
YOUR mis-applications are world famous!!

Congratulations on another one!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
7,089
1,364
113
#12
Yeah but Romans 9 says God Hardened the heart of Pharoah. What should i think now..
Please study the first 14 chapters of Exodus carefully.

1. Firstly Pharaoh was an evil man to begin with.

2, But God gave him multiple opportunities to repent and do what is righteous.

3. Pharaoh rejected every opportunity to do God's will, and kept on hardening his heart.

4. Then Pharaoh let the Israelites go, but then again changed his mind and went after them.

5. Therefore God FINALLY hardened his heart to the point that he could not repent and was therefore damned.

God gives every sinner multiple opportunities to repent before their hearts are hardened. The wicked world of Noah's time has 120 years of preaching and refused to repent. Nineveh had one day of preaching, and they all repented.
 

Milee777

Active member
Dec 24, 2018
102
44
28
#13
ALL.....a trip word for the unlearned.
Go to the verse, look at who is speaking and who are they speaking to? (Peter to "beloved" believers)
"God does not wish for any of YOU to perish but for all to come to repentance"

So the 'any" is a select group...the group Peter is addressing.
the ALL is likewise confined to that group Peter is addressing.

(If I say "look at all the ducks in that pond", do I mean all the ducks in the whole world or do I mean a group of ducks specific to that pond?) Context is the means to understanding and the small words are as important as the big ones.

It actually just reads that God did not with any of them to perish but to come to repentence.
A statement of a fact. God was not willing and God does not lose any that He has chosen.
You can't read it like it is something they have yet to do because that makes no sense.
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,022
480
83
#14
1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
If He will have all men to be saved, then why are not all men saved? Are their fallen wills stronger than God's my friend?
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,022
480
83
#15
What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..
The elect are those God has chosen to save. Read Ephesians 1, especially verses 4-11. Then read Romans 8, especially verses 28-30. Also read Ezekiel 34, too, my friend.

On here, there are some you need to avoid at all costs. They are anti-election, denying election has anything to do salvation, only service. Think about this...election has nothing to do with salvation. Election deals with God choosing to save people from their sins. If election has nothing to do with salvation, then many will be with God who God never chose. Makes no sense whatsoever my friend.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,022
480
83
#16
@Milee777 you have been given a bum steer. Nowhere in the Exodus account of Moses and Pharaoh was Moses commanded to preach to Pharaoh and for him to serve God. God sent Moses to get His people out of Egypt so that He could destroy Pharaoh and his army. Pharaoh would have relented to save his skin, but God hardened it so that he would not. God was very active in the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. Do not listen to those who say otherwise.

All you have to do is go back and read Exodus for yourself and see who is telling you the context of that great book. Nowhere did Moses tell Pharaoh to worship the God of Israel, but rather, "God said to let my people go that they may worship Me."
 
Dec 28, 2016
7,910
1,547
113
#17
The elect are those God has chosen to save. Read Ephesians 1, especially verses 4-11. Then read Romans 8, especially verses 28-30. Also read Ezekiel 34, too, my friend.

On here, there are some you need to avoid at all costs. They are anti-election, denying election has anything to do salvation, only service. Think about this...election has nothing to do with salvation. Election deals with God choosing to save people from their sins. If election has nothing to do with salvation, then many will be with God who God never chose. Makes no sense whatsoever my friend.
Also it is good to read 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 as well.
 
Dec 28, 2016
7,910
1,547
113
#18
What does the Bible mean when it says... '' the elect''... Who are these?
And if salvation is for all and Jesus died for all.. Why is there an elect..?..
What if i were the vessel of wrath? What must my attitude be then? How must i live this life after this knowledge?
And how would you explain the verse which says about how God wants that 'all' are brought to repentance
Hello Milee777,

You've asked good questions. May I ask what have you read that deals with this? I would suggest this book which will answer your questions, and it is free. You can get a hard copy here. Either way I highly recommend you to read it.

As to your question about "all" being brought to repentance, it is concerning context of that passage that we must consider. The text is 2 Peter 3:9. Note this from verse 1 "To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours..." We see this then is talking to and speaking of those whom God has saved.

The "all" in that passage is those to whom Peter addresses therefore it refers to those whom he has elected. God is patiently awaiting the sending of the Lord Jesus Christ again only until each elect person he has chosen to save comes to full repentance. That is the meaning of the "all" or the "usward" in 2 Peter 3:9. Read it, see that the context there is his chosen from the very beginning of the epistle to the end, the "you" the "all" the "usward" (worded according to whichever version you're looking at) is referring to the elect.

This passage shows us why God is patient, he is patient to bring into Christ all he has chosen before the sending of his Son.

Concerning being a vessel of wrath, and your question note that even his elect were formerly under wrath, like the rest of mankind, Ephesians 2:3; Note also Ephesians 1:4-11 for context of whom Paul is addressing in the Epistle. Place your faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, in his work on the cross, repent and believe his Gospel for the salvation he bought. If you have been brought to repentance and faith you need not fear his wrath, there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus; Romans 8:1.

God bless you Milee777.
 
Mar 14, 2011
55,807
3,498
113
#20
To the Op.

Elect mens chosen, or predetermined. Or special

God chose a nation out of all nations to have a special purpose on earth. They are called his elect (national) and this form has no bearingn n anyone, including that nations salvation.

Then there are the elect. Chosen by God in his foreknowledge, to be saved by the will of God. What is th will of God? In John 6, It says the will of God is al who SEE and BELIEVE will be given eternal life. Never die, and be assured of ressurection to life. How do we see. The bible says through the word.

The bible does say he is the savior of all. But it also mentions that it is ESPECIALLY those who are being save. Just because hee came to save all does not mean all will be saved, He will nt force his salvation on anyone. And do not let anyone tell you otherwise.