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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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There is NO CONTRADICTION. It is a simple misunderstanding through improper reading of the text:

Ahaziah's age of confirmation

The "problem":
The King James Bible (as well as the majority of "original manuscripts") says of Ahaziah:
2Ki 8:26 Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem.


And it also says:
2Ch 22:2 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem.


The "stock" answer:
The King James Bible and vast majority of "original" manuscripts are obviously wrong. It is a simple copyist error.

The truth:

Look again at the context of 2nd Kings 8:26:

2Ki 8:25 In the twelfth year of Joram the son of Ahab king of Israel did Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah begin to reign. 26 Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel.

This was eloquently explained in the notes from the Geneva Bible (circa 1599 A.D.). I'll just quote it:

"Which is to be understood, that he was made king when his father reigned, but after his father's death he was confirmed king when he was forty-two years old, as in 2Ch 22:2."

So there you have it.

https://av1611.com/kjbp/faq/ahaziah.html
Methinks you don't understand the word "contradiction". However, you aren't the one calling comparable issues in other translations "lies"... so far.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Refuted many times. Your skeptic belief has kept you from seeing the truth. Are you truly searching for truth? Or are you simply out to prove the KJV to be false? What mind do you have?
I see no reason to continue entertaining your lack of integrity.

Either you acknowledge that the comparable issues in other translations are exactly that, or you acknowledge that the KJV lies regarding the age of Ahaziah when he became king.

Or, continue being a hypocrite, for at this point, that is what you are.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,879
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If you only reading the KJV bible in piecemeal fashion of course you not going to get the full counsel of God. The Bible is a narrative its not bits and pieces you can chop and change, thats the thing people just dont read things anymore and seem to have really short attention spans.

Its better to read ONE bible all the way through than 7 different ones skimread in my opinion.
Don't make unwarranted assumptions about others.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
9,077
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So it's ok to just come along and change the word to fit your socio-political plans. And reject the idea of, don't add or take away from this word even though that is the directive from the Lord. We can just kick that to the curb huh? I guess that leaves the question about J-dubbs and mormo followers and their Jimmied up versions of the Bible.
I believe the KJV is the word of God. We don't have any originals. NONE! Either you trust that God has preserved His word in the English language in a certain version or you don't trust any version to be the word of God. For the English language, words have to be added to make the statement a statement of truth. I have no problem with that.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Refuted many times. Your skeptic belief has kept you from seeing the truth. Are you truly searching for truth? Or are you simply out to prove the KJV to be false? What mind do you have?
Oh man! The KJV is never been refuted! All those seeming errors has all the answers right straight straight from the words of God. The fundamental truth can be reconciled using "spiritual things with spiritual" 1 Cor. 2:13. never with man's wisdom teacheth.

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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I believe the KJV is the word of God. We don't have any originals. NONE! Either you trust that God has preserved His word in the English language in a certain version or you don't trust any version to be the word of God. For the English language, words have to be added to make the statement a statement of truth. I have no problem with that.
I might add, KJV is given by the inspiration of God.

God bless
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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Dino you just being a pain, why bother posting when all you want to do is argue with everyone.
Yes open rebuke is better than secret love I just rebuke your nonsense. Stop being a hater.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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I might add, KJV is given by the inspiration of God.

God bless
Haleuljah well, as demonstrated inThis discussion people with other new bibles cant even seem to share the truth. Are not even willing to. Hmm.

Propitiation! Lol can you make propititiation please? Jesus has done it, so why cant we?
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I might add, KJV is given by the inspiration of God.
Oh my goodness. Fredo, that's a load of absolute, unadulterated hogwash. You have left sound reasoning and all kinds of evidence far behind and have departed into fantasy.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Dino you just being a pain, why bother posting when all you want to do is argue with everyone.
Yes open rebuke is better than secret love I just rebuke your nonsense. Stop being a hater.
Yes, I'm a "hater". I hate hypocrisy and erroneous views of Scripture. I will continue to be a hater of such things, because they are contrary to the nature and revelation of God.

You are free to disagree with me. Many do. However, I take the criticism whence it comes, and treat it accordingly. :)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
10,591
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Methinks you don't understand the word "contradiction". However, you aren't the one calling comparable issues in other translations "lies"... so far.
There is no contradiction, and there is no scribal error.

Twenty two = עֶשְׂרִ֨ים ‘eś-rîm וּשְׁתַּ֤יִם ū-šə-ta-yim

Forty two = אַרְבָּעִ֨ים ’ar-bā-‘îm וּשְׁתַּ֤יִם ū-šə-ta-yim
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,879
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There is no contradiction, and there is no scribal error.

Twenty two = עֶשְׂרִ֨ים ‘eś-rîm וּשְׁתַּ֤יִם ū-šə-ta-yim

Forty two = אַרְבָּעִ֨ים ’ar-bā-‘îm וּשְׁתַּ֤יִם ū-šə-ta-yim
One man, at one particular point in his life, was two different ages.

Uh huh... no contradiction at all.

What colour is the sky in your world?
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
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Not liking the sarcasm here Dino.

Give it up.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
5,837
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Ok i foind the lolcat bible online and the word it uses for proptititian...well I cant really post it here cos I find it hard to read and copy the verse 1 John 2:2

But if anyone can that would be good. Thanks. Doesnt have to be Dino since hes not willing to do it.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
12,879
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Not liking the sarcasm here Dino.

Give it up.
You seem to have taken a distinct dislike to my contributions, and have taken it upon yourself to be the Thought Police.

Try to keep up. :)
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
10,871
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Well good you getting that as well good point.
Same with thee and thou, thou being mostly used to address God.

If youve got a new bible, dont be stingy, share what the word is for propitititian. If you dont well, to me seems like you a bit embarassed to admit you cant find it or dont understand it. Im not going to argue with someone whos got a bit of an attitude problem with answering questions.

I dont have a 'new' bible, so I am asking you who has one. If you want to be kind and share. If you dont well, forget about it. You probably dont know what propitiation means.
Just for you!

NASB
Romans 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

ESV
Romans 3:25
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Amplified
Romans 3:25
whom God displayed publicly [before the eyes of the world] as a [life-giving] sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation (propitiation) by His blood [to be received] through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness [which demands punishment for sin], because in His forbearance [His deliberate restraint] He passed over the sins previously committed [before Jesus’ crucifixion].

Hebrews 2:17
Therefore, it was essential that He had to be made like His brothers (mankind) in every respect, so that He might [by experience] become a merciful and faithful High Priest in things related to God, to make atonement (propitiation) for the people’s sins [thereby wiping away the sin, satisfying divine justice, and providing a way of reconciliation between God and mankind].

1 John 2:2
And He [that same Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins [the atoning sacrifice that holds back the wrath of God that would otherwise be directed at us because of our sinful nature—our worldliness, our lifestyle]; and not for ours alone, but also for [the sins of all believers throughout] the whole world.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation [that is, the atoning sacrifice, and the satisfying offering] for our sins [fulfilling God’s requirement for justice against sin and placating His wrath].

ASV
Romans 3:25
whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God;

Hebrews 2:17
Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

1 John 2:2
and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

1 John 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.


NASB is a bit older, one of those dreadful (NOT!) Bibles first published in 1960. ESV is newer, first published in 2001, with revisions in 2007; 2011; and 2016. Amplified was first published in 1965. So, I guess all NEW Bibles that use the word "propitiation." Also, the ASV, first published in 1901 uses propitiation, and uses more archaic language than most modern version. . But, that was not first published after 1960.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Oh my goodness. Fredo, that's a load of absolute, unadulterated hogwash. You have left sound reasoning and all kinds of evidence far behind and have departed into fantasy.
\Dino, Dino, Dino, Ho,ho...

You seem to be offended because I posted what I believe of the KJV is given by inspiration. Why not? I believe KJV is English text of scripture. It is scripture of truth, is quick and powerful. I believe in every word in the KJV is “All scripture…”. Does your bibles not given by inspiration? Are they not an inspired text? Are they not profitable for doctrine? For reproof? for instructions? If so, that might be a big difference with mine.

Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince
Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
10,871
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@Lanolin said:

"You probably dont know what propitiation means."

That is the point, isn't it!?

I read NASB the first 25 years after I was saved, from cover to cover, once a year. I remember finding that word "propitiation"in my first read through and not having a clue what it meant. No internet in 1980, and I had no dictionary. I think I finally asked a pastor. Of course today, the whole POINT of newer Bibles, is that they don't feel it necessary to use words that no one uses anymore! Because, the Greek is NOT propitiation, either.

In fact, the word in Greek for Romans 3:25 is ἱλαστήριον or hilastaron. So, just because the older versions use it, doesn't make it right. So, if people don't know what it means, they are losing A LOT reading a translation that does use it.

Here is the dropping off of usage of the word, propitiation. Obviously not in use much any more. So, why make new or young Christians, or those with less education use a word that has fallen out of common usage? Which is ALWAYS my point about why the KJV simply is not a good translation for someone just wanting to read the Bible through. Word like propitiation are stumbling blocks, in fact! Here is how the usage of propitiation has gone down since the 1800s.

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As for what hilastaron means:
Bauer or BDAG (3rd Ed.) pg 474, the best Greek Lexicon says:

1. means of expiation, of Christ, Romans 3:25
2. place of propitiation, Mercy seat - Hebrews 9:25

Internet Definition:
pro·pi·ti·a·tion

Dictionary result for propitiation
/prəˌpiSHēˈāSHən/
noun

1. the action of propitiating or appeasing a god, spirit, or person.
"he lifted his hands in propitiation"
2. atonement, especially that of Jesus Christ.

Here is a good definition from biblestudytools.com

Propitiation
that by which God is rendered propitious, i.e., by which it becomes consistent with his character and government to pardon and bless the sinner. The propitiation does not procure his love or make him loving; it only renders it consistent for him to execise his love towards sinners.

In Romans 3:25 and Hebrews 9:5 (A.V., "mercy-seat") the Greek word hilasterion is used. It is the word employed by the LXX. translators in Exodus 25:17 and elsewhere as the equivalent for the Hebrew kapporeth , which means "covering," and is used of the lid of the ark of the covenant ( Exodus 25:21 ; 30:6 ). This Greek word (hilasterion) came to denote not only the mercy-seat or lid of the ark, but also propitation or reconciliation by blood. On the great day of atonement the high priest carried the blood of the sacrifice he offered for all the people within the veil and sprinkled with it the "mercy-seat," and so made propitiation.

In 1 John 2:2 ; 4:10 , Christ is called the "propitiation for our sins." Here a different Greek word is used (hilasmos). Christ is "the propitiation," because by his becoming our substitute and assuming our obligations he expiated our guilt, covered it, by the vicarious punishment which he endured.

So, in fact, atonement is probably a better word to use. At least most people have heard of it, although for sure this is such an important word, that further study should be done by anyone.

NIV
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished"

PS. I just found out the HSCB ) Holman's, uses propitiation for all 4 verses listed in my post #157. First published in 2003. It sure wasn't hard to look in all the new, functional and find 5 modern versions that use the word. Again, as Dino said, try Biblegateway.com, and you can find 100's of versions, in many languages. All translations, none of them inspired like the original autographs, but certainly useful for everything, when you understand the words!!
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
10,871
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\Dino, Dino, Dino, Ho,ho...

You seem to be offended because I posted what I believe of the KJV is given by inspiration. Why not? I believe KJV is English text of scripture. It is scripture of truth, is quick and powerful. I believe in every word in the KJV is “All scripture…”. Does your bibles not given by inspiration? Are they not an inspired text? Are they not profitable for doctrine? For reproof? for instructions? If so, that might be a big difference with mine.

Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince
Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Thanks for pointing out another mistake in the KJV, Fred!

KJV
"16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Tim. 3:16-17

The word, ALL above is wrong. Here is the Greek (SLB) :

"16 πᾶσα γραφὴ θεόπνευστος καὶ ὠφέλιμος πρὸς διδασκαλίαν, πρὸς ἐλεγμόν, πρὸς ἐπανόρθωσιν, πρὸς παιδείαν τὴν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ, 17 ἵνα ἄρτιος ᾖ ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος, πρὸς πᾶν ἔργον ἀγαθὸν ἐξηρτισμένος." 2 Tim. 3:16-17 SBL Greek

This agrees with Stephanus 1550!
"16 πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος και ωφελιμος προς διδασκαλιαν προς ελεγχον προς επανορθωσιν προς παιδειαν την εν δικαιοσυνη
17 ινα αρτιος η ο του θεου ανθρωπος προς παν εργον αγαθον εξηρτισμενος" 2 Tim. 3:16-17

So, what is the mistake you ask?

The word γραφὴ or Scripture/writing is nominative, feminine, singular. So, it is described by the Nom. Fem. Sg. word πᾶσα. The word in the singular is translated as "each, every." If it was plural, which it is not, it would be All Scriptures. But, it is not plural, so "every" is a better translation, in fact the RIGHT translation.

Here is a modern translation for you! In fact the NET seems to be one of the few Bibles that uses the singular and uses it properly. Unfortunately, in translation committees, the tendency for many versions is to follow "the tradition of the KJV, rather than translating it properly." That a direct quote from my Greek professor, Bill Mounce, one of the top Greek scholars and teachers in the world today.

"Every scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the person dedicated to God may be capable and equipped for every good work." 2 Tim. 3:16-17 NET

It's funny to me, that people who are so insistent on using the KJV because "every word is right" then put up with shoddy, (although probably as good as it got, 400 years ago!) translations.