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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,162
342
83
#21
Then how are they going to be first AFTER we see saints there DURING THE GT.?
Hello HOD,

Could you please explain what you are getting at regarding the great tribulation saints of Rev.7:9-17 in relation to the gathering of the church prior to God's wrath. I'm a little confused as to what you are trying to say.

Thanks!
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
172
63
#22
In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, there is no mentioning of when the Lord's second advent occurs. That's why all eschatological camps use it for proof their's is correct.

In 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, it does not mention of when He comes again, but it does mention the sounding of the trumpet.

In Revelation 4:1, John, and only John, is called up. Not the ekklesia. There is no way to make this the rapture of the church.

But in Matthew 25, we see Him saying “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne."[vs 31]

So, to hold to a pre-trib rapture is to have the Christ coming again, again, and I find that nowhere in scripture.

Why build a theology on nothing more than inferences?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,162
342
83
#23
In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, there is no mentioning of when the Lord's second advent occurs. That's why all eschatological camps use it for proof their's is correct.

In 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, it does not mention of when He comes again, but it does mention the sounding of the trumpet.


This is why it is important to cross-reference and compare scripture. You say "
there is no mentioning of when the Lord's second advent occurs." By understanding that the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the gathering must take place prior to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, which takes place after the completion of God's wrath.

1 Thes.4:13-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-53 is referring to the gathering of the church, not the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

In addition and as I have made clear so many times, the fact that the bride/church is receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb in Rev.19:6-8 and in Rev.19:14 is then shown to be following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen that she will have previously received, would demonstrate that the bride/church would have to already be in heaven in order to be able to follow the Lord out of heaven.

In Revelation 4:1, John, and only John, is called up. Not the ekklesia. There is no way to make this the rapture of the church.


I just gave you the answer to the above, which you obviously chose to ignore, but here it is again:

Though John is the one being called up, it is also a prophetic allusion to the church being caught up in relation to God's wrath, which begins with the opening of the 1st seal. In support of this, in Chapters 1 thru 3 the word church is used 18 times, then after the end of chapter 3 the word church never appears again. The next time we see the church is in heaven as the bride where she will be receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb (Rev.19:6-8). The next time we see that actual word ekklesia/church again is not until Rev.22:16 which is outside the narrative. It's disappearance after the end of chapter 3 is very significant.


Now instead of refuting it, consider the information above. Ask yourself the question as to why the word "ekklesia/church" abruptly disappears from Revelation after the end of chapter 3? Don't just say "
There is no way to make this the rapture of the church" without addressing the answer that I gave you, because that's just you saying "cause I said so" which doesn't carry any weight. Like a puzzle, you have to put all of the pieces together in order to get the big picture.

But in Matthew 25, we see Him saying “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne."


The verse above is referring to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom. It is a completely separate event from the gathering of the church. By putting the church as being gathered in Matt.24:29-31 or Matt.25, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God.
 
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SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
172
63
#24
Again, God knows them that are His and will protect them. When God was throttling Egypt, He was protecting the Jews. He knows who to pour His wrath upon and who not to.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,162
342
83
#25
Again, God knows them that are His and will protect them. When God was throttling Egypt, He was protecting the Jews. He knows who to pour His wrath upon and who not to.
With all due respect, by your claim above, it demonstrates that you don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to make the signs performed against Egypt look like jay walking in comparison. To give you an example, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third respectively, over half the earths population will have been killed and that is not counting the fatalities as a result of trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor the fatalities of the bowl judgments.

You are correct that the remnant of Israel will be protected, which is symbolically represented by the woman of Rev.12, but everyone else, including the great tribulation saints, will all be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments of God's wrath, as well as the beasts kingdom.

No! Instead of protecting us through such horror and chaos, the Lord is going to keep his promise and descend from heaven and gather His church and take us back to the Father's house, that where He is we may be also.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,884
120
63
#26
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is at the end of the age and not a pre-trib rapture. There is no timing mentioned in that passage, none. Pre, mid, post, amil, all use that passage. But there is no timing mentioned in that.

Just like Revelation 4:1. It says John was called up, and the pre-tribs use that to support a pre-trib rapture. John, and only John, not the ekklesia, was called up.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There is great comfort to the Church, the body of Christ that we will be caught up before the great tribulation if we are alive and remain at that time.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,162
342
83
#27
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There is great comfort to the Church, the body of Christ that we will be caught up before the great tribulation if we are alive and remain at that time.
I say, AMEN!
 
Feb 7, 2017
326
35
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#28
Jesus will come three and half days after the first half of the seventieth week of Daniel 9.24.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
172
63
#29
With all due respect, by your claim above, it demonstrates that you don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to make the signs performed against Egypt look like jay walking in comparison. To give you an example, with just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third respectively, over half the earths population will have been killed and that is not counting the fatalities as a result of trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor the fatalities of the bowl judgments.

You are correct that the remnant of Israel will be protected, which is symbolically represented by the woman of Rev.12, but everyone else, including the great tribulation saints, will all be exposed to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments of God's wrath, as well as the beasts kingdom.

No! Instead of protecting us through such horror and chaos, the Lord is going to keep his promise and descend from heaven and gather His church and take us back to the Father's house, that where He is we may be also.
I do understand the severity of God's wrath. But I also know that nothing happens until the man of lawlessness is revealed per 2 Thess. 2:3.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,162
342
83
#30
Jesus will come three and half days after the first half of the seventieth week of Daniel 9.24.
Hello so-Jesus-e-deus,

According to scripture, Jesus will not return to the earth to end the age until after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which is at the end of the seven years when God's wrath has been completed.

"
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,162
342
83
#31
I do understand the severity of God's wrath. But I also know that nothing happens until the man of lawlessness is revealed per 2 Thess. 2:3.
You are correct! The revealing of the man of lawlessness/antichrist is symbolically represented by the rider on the white horse of the 1st seal, which means that believers must be gathered prior to the 1st seal being opened.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
2,283
116
63
#32
It's all falling apart for the pre-trib position. There is too much scripture simply left ignored. And a tendency to interpret scriptural evidence as supporting the existing position.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
2,283
116
63
#33
Again, God knows them that are His and will protect them. When God was throttling Egypt, He was protecting the Jews. He knows who to pour His wrath upon and who not to.
Indeed!

Psalm 91

1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High
will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.[a]
2 I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress,
my God, in whom I trust.”


3 Surely he will save you
from the fowler’s snare
and from the deadly pestilence.
4 He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge;
his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.
5 You will not fear the terror of night,
nor the arrow that flies by day,
6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness,
nor the plague that destroys at midday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side,ten thousand at your right hand,
but it will not come near you.
8 You will only observe with your eyes
and see the punishment of the wicked.


9 If you say, “The Lord is my refuge,”
and you make the Most High your dwelling,
10 no harm will overtake you,
no disaster will come near your tent.
11 For he will command his angels concerning you
to guard you in all your ways;
12 they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.
13 You will tread on the lion and the cobra;
you will trample the great lion and the serpent.


14 “Because he[b] loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him;
I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.
15 He will call on me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble,
I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him
and show him my salvation.”

 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,162
342
83
#34
It's all falling apart for the pre-trib position. There is too much scripture simply left ignored. And a tendency to interpret scriptural evidence as supporting the existing position.
Please provide an example of what is being ignored. Thanks!
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
2,283
116
63
#35
Please provide an example of what is being ignored. Thanks!
I was thinking of doing a write-up when I get chance (time). I have a lot of handwritten notes in my bibles to refer to but have never typed them out anywhere. Whenever I made suggestions in the past you showed no interest so I proceeded no further.
Perhaps a blog entry might be a better way to go about it?

Please understand that I think I have things to learn from you, one who has studied the word regarding this subject.
I am not trying to disprove you, only to challenge what has been taught in churches for years- that we will be whisked out of here before things get rough. In my own studies over the years based on scripture, I find too many holes in that theory.

I would give you less grief if you would admit that you may not have it ALL figured out yet.;) I don't think I do. But I do have an understanding of SOME things.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,510
1,510
113
#36
If they came OUT of great tribulation, it can not be before it happens. You do not come out of a tunnel before or in the middle of the tunnel, but after you come out the other side. Those coming out of great tribulation went through it, and then came out of it on the other side.
AMEN...been saying since about 1992 POST-TRIB/PRE-WRATH in gathering at the 7th trump.......I used to believe in the imminent return, was taught it my whole life, defended it dogmatically and then changed my mind due to study because there are too many contradictions found in scripture for it to be correct......not going to argue with anyone about it........
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
5,108
682
113
#37
If they came OUT of great tribulation, it can not be before it happens. You do not come out of a tunnel before or in the middle of the tunnel, but after you come out the other side. Those coming out of great tribulation went through it, and then came out of it on the other side.
I don't understand brother why these can't be people that BECAME Christians DURING the reign of antichrist, but AFTER the Rapture of the Church.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
30,510
1,510
113
#38
Again, God knows them that are His and will protect them. When God was throttling Egypt, He was protecting the Jews. He knows who to pour His wrath upon and who not to.
AMEN and the word "KEEP" as applied unto the church at Philadelphia means to protect or guard from loss or harm, not remove.

And to say it means remove = a split rapture...what happens to the other 6 churches represented......the whole imminent return farce is contradicted on so many levels.....

They use a thief in the night...false We are not in darkness that it should over take us as a thief.

They use this "we disappear" farce...false The saved, religious lost, every eye, kindred, tongue and nation see HIM come in the clouds with great glory and power

His return is VISIBLE, just as lightning cracking in the East and shining unto the West and or like a dead carcass due to the gathered birds

Matthew, mark and Luke ALL teach a POST great tribulation ingathering

The parable of the wheat and tare teaches the ingathering is AFTER GOD begins to deal with the tares which supports a post TRIBULATION ingathering

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-6 teaches the ingathering will NOT take place until the man of sin is revealed as GOD...Paul uses a Grandsville Sharp in Greek --->By the coming of Christ THAT IS TO SAY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM..IT WLL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL........

To teach the imminent return one must flat ignore the HUNDREDS of biblical contradictions to that belief, words must be twisted, context ignored or flat denied etc.......

The bible clearly teaches a POST GREAT Tribulation PRE-WRATH ingathering and this comes from one who was raised believing it, dogmatically defended it and I thought all who thought differently were ignorant of the word.....and when I really started studying I begin to come across one contradiction after another and in context I could not dismiss the contradictions.....

all I am gonna say....it is obviously not a test of salvation and or fellowship, but for sure my mind is set...just saying
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#39
In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, there is no mentioning of when the Lord's second advent occurs. That's why all eschatological camps use it for proof their's is correct.

In 1 Corinthians 15:51-58, it does not mention of when He comes again, but it does mention the sounding of the trumpet.

In Revelation 4:1, John, and only John, is called up. Not the ekklesia. There is no way to make this the rapture of the church.

But in Matthew 25, we see Him saying “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne."[vs 31]

So, to hold to a pre-trib rapture is to have the Christ coming again, again, and I find that nowhere in scripture.

Why build a theology on nothing more than inferences?
1 thes.
Incorporate 1 thes. Dead in christ rise FIRST. Your broadbrushing it away.

Btw,incorporate JESUS appearing in rev 14 during the GT.
He COMES BACK DURING THE GT ti harvest ripe fruit.

So,what was that about multiple appearings?
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#40
AMEN and the word "KEEP" as applied unto the church at Philadelphia means to protect or guard from loss or harm, not remove.

And to say it means remove = a split rapture...what happens to the other 6 churches represented......the whole imminent return farce is contradicted on so many levels.....

They use a thief in the night...false We are not in darkness that it should over take us as a thief.

They use this "we disappear" farce...false The saved, religious lost, every eye, kindred, tongue and nation see HIM come in the clouds with great glory and power

His return is VISIBLE, just as lightning cracking in the East and shining unto the West and or like a dead carcass due to the gathered birds

Matthew, mark and Luke ALL teach a POST great tribulation ingathering

The parable of the wheat and tare teaches the ingathering is AFTER GOD begins to deal with the tares which supports a post TRIBULATION ingathering

2nd Thessalonians 2:1-6 teaches the ingathering will NOT take place until the man of sin is revealed as GOD...Paul uses a Grandsville Sharp in Greek --->By the coming of Christ THAT IS TO SAY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM..IT WLL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL........

To teach the imminent return one must flat ignore the HUNDREDS of biblical contradictions to that belief, words must be twisted, context ignored or flat denied etc.......

The bible clearly teaches a POST GREAT Tribulation PRE-WRATH ingathering and this comes from one who was raised believing it, dogmatically defended it and I thought all who thought differently were ignorant of the word.....and when I really started studying I begin to come across one contradiction after another and in context I could not dismiss the contradictions.....

all I am gonna say....it is obviously not a test of salvation and or fellowship, but for sure my mind is set...just saying
So,you are saying rev 14 is the rapture?.

You have to be saying rev 14 also has the dead in Christ raised and raptured.
Doesnt fit.

Because now you have the dead in Christ raised AFTER rev 7. Meaning they DIDNT rise first
 
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