No Eternal Security = No Salvation?

[NayborBear]

Nope, I never said it was ok, or they would not pay for it. The corinthian church was paying dearly for their milk eating,

But if your saying they will lose their salvation. We have serious issues.

In post #71 you stated: "No one is arguingn that there are different aspects of sanctification."

Romans 13:11

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

It's a good thing then EG, we do not have "serious" issues!

What I do say, and have said in many a post I have offered up to be dissected, analyzed, debated, taken out of context, etc.etc. Is attempting in the telling and warning of "believers", of the "false shepherds", "blind shepherds", one's that "flatter" people into believing that there "journey has ended" AT the "Cross of Christ!" And, because of this? They now have a "front row seat in Heaven", so, there is no need in any further Biblical studying!

For me to say these one's who have stopped traveling, have NO Salvation, or have lost it? That, is not my call, and above my pay grade!

As far as your statement concerning the Church in Corinth, and how "dearly" they were "paying" for their lack, or ceasing from "traveling?" Kinda sounds like every church of these days, don't it?

Just because "He who knows the end from the beginning", is, at least in my belief, NOWISE indicative, of the end being His will, that it be so! Again, in my belief, NOWISE "justify's" ANY believers' being, nor becoming reconciled TO "that" end!
Inaction = complicity? Loss of salvation? Again, not my call!

Just striving in the "telling" of my postings, that endless discussions concerning "doctrines of men", does very little, in helping a believer's spirit becoming any more sanctified, then when the believer first believed!

 

[NayborBear]

Jesus is the gate and the gate does not change.

There is no statement that the road becomes more narrow either.

And now I want to ask why is your avatar one of nuns holding guns? Is there some deeper meaning I am missing?

Matthew 7
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 10
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

So? You should go on and "Tell the God, and Father of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, you are coming!" And, let me know if the "way" doesn't get "narrower!"

As far as my "avatar?" "Nuns, with guns!" Poetic! I like it! You don't? TOUGH!

 

[NayborBear]

Just reading your profile.

Why don't you know that you are saved? Have you not received Christ?

Also, your writing style is way too cryptic for me. It might make sense to you, but I suspect for most the points you try and make are lost in translation.
And what about those nuns?

Oh yes, PennEd! I have received Christ! Yet, I find it more of a reward, and in "service of the God, and Father of Jesus Christ", in not being, nor becoming complacent, or apathetic, regarding the perfecting, or maturing of my spiritual growth.

And, in the "hopes", that my postings reflect this.

As far as my "style" goes? I would have to refer to Paul, and his stating that some things are spiritually discerned, so would sound rather cryptic. Although, as you said, it makes "sense" to me when I peck it out on my keyboard.

Oh yes! "Nuns with guns!" I like it! Am not a nun! Not even a woman! Nor, Catholic, for that matter!

 

[NayborBear]

Yes..im curious too

Only as far as my being a staunch advocate for the 2nd amendment? And, a Christian? Any other interpretations are left to one's own imagination, I guess!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Romans 6:12-17
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

And check out Titus 2, where we are told what the grace of God teaches us:

Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.


Some people accuse those who walk in God's grace of using that grace as a license to sin. Sad, really, because it reveals a complete misunderstanding of the power of the grace of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In post #71 you stated: "No one is arguingn that there are different aspects of sanctification."

Romans 13:11

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

See, now that is the problem. I was speaking about sanctification (also called christian growth) and your talking about salvation, they are two different subjects. If you want to talk about sanctification, we can, But right now we are talking about salvation. Salvation is a different topic. How sanctified one gets there has no bearing on ones salvation. If one is never saved, he will never be sanctified, Think of it this way,

1. Salvation is entering through the gate
2. Santification is the walk we walk after we are saved until we reach our final desitination, Heaven. Not everyone will walk the same path. Again, Some, Like paul will walk along distance, others like the corinthian church will not walk far. Pual lived a full blessed life, even in his suffering which he called a momentary light affliction because his faith grew leaps and bounds, The corinthian church were living short empty lives, because of sin, and a failure to grow their faith. Yet both were called children of God and both reached the destination God promised them as will all his children no matter how far they walk and how much they grow their faith.

So please. Try to stick to the proper subject.. Thats why people get confused, they mix salvation and sanctification saying they are dependent on each other which is not true. While begining sanctification is deendent on salvation, that is the only connection, and salvation is not dependent on sanctification at all;.

It's a good thing then EG, we do not have "serious" issues!

Sadly, I am beginning to think we do.

What I do say, and have said in many a post I have offered up to be dissected, analyzed, debated, taken out of context, etc.etc. Is attempting in the telling and warning of "believers", of the "false shepherds", "blind shepherds", one's that "flatter" people into believing that there "journey has ended" AT the "Cross of Christ!" And, because of this? They now have a "front row seat in Heaven", so, there is no need in any further Biblical studying!

Name one person who says this? I hope you know this line of reasoning is getting old and outdated. And it is really starting to get on peoples nervs, and is most likely one of the reasons these debates get so heated all the time. Because your doing the very thing you claim people are doing to do. And assuming people are saying something they have never said, will never say, and are not saying. No one here says once a person comes to christ their journey is complet and they can just sit on their behinds and do nothing. That is a strawman you either have conjoured up or people have told you, and sadly, is an excuse to remain in your legalistic mindset.

For me to say these one's who have stopped traveling, have NO Salvation, or have lost it? That, is not my call, and above my pay grade!

You do not have to determine it for yourself. The bible tells you what they have done. The bible says you will be hld accountable for what you believe, And that we are to study to shew purselves approved, a workman who rightly divides the word. The bible tells you the answer. Eternal life is eternal. Conditional life is condition. What does Jesus promise, Did he say he perfected forever those who are being sanctified, Or did he say he will in the futyure perfect them, Did he say they passed from death to life, or did he say they were in a purgatorial state and have t prove themselves worthy before they are passed all the way to life?

As far as your statement concerning the Church in Corinth, and how "dearly" they were "paying" for their lack, or ceasing from "traveling?" Kinda sounds like every church of these days, don't it?

Just because "He who knows the end from the beginning", is, at least in my belief, NOWISE indicative, of the end being His will, that it be so! Again, in my belief, NOWISE "justify's" ANY believers' being, nor becoming reconciled TO "that" end!
Inaction = complicity? Loss of salvation? Again, not my call!

Just striving in the "telling" of my postings, that endless discussions concerning "doctrines of men", does very little, in helping a believer's spirit becoming any more sanctified, then when the believer first believed!

If your warning people they can lose salvation if they do not live up to some standard you think they have to live up to. You are spreading a false gospel. Plain and simple.there is no debate on that issue according to the word. Period.

 

[Ralph-]

And check out Titus 2, where we are told what the grace of God teaches us:

Titus 2:

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Seems a lot of Christians have been skipping that class.

Some people accuse those who walk in God's grace of using that grace as a license to sin.

I think it would be the people who don't walk in God's grace that get accused of using that grace as a license to sin.

And there are plenty of people who will teach you that you can use God's grace as a license to sin. Not that you should, they will say. But that you can.

Sad, really, because it reveals a complete misunderstanding of the power of the grace of God.

What's sad is saying you have a complete understanding of God's grace and then not walking in that grace. That describes the church very well today. They brag on God's grace but don't live in it. They think the proper understanding of God's grace is it let's them live carefree in their old lives. They can deny it all they want but that is exactly what they show by their lives that they believe. That's not a complete understanding of God's grace. That shows how much they do not understand the power of the grace of God.

Not talking about the struggle with sin. I'm talking about willfully and knowingly and without care indulging the sensual desires of our western society. All in the name of grace. They are not ready for Christ's return. But 'once saved always saved' has deceived them into thinking they are.

 

[Ralph-]

If your warning people they can lose salvation if they do not live up to some standard you think they have to live up to. You are spreading a false gospel.

Then you also are spreading a false gospel.

Every time you use 1 John 2 & 3 to defend 'once saved always saved' you are saying there is a standard that you have to maintain or else you are not really saved.

 

[Ralph-]

Did he say he perfected forever those who are being sanctified, Or did he say he will in the futyure perfect them

You are forever perfect in Christ as long as you are believing. Even Calvinism, from where your 'once saved always saved' doctrine comes from, teaches this.

Did he say they passed from death to life, or did he say they were in a purgatorial state and have t prove themselves worthy before they are passed all the way to life?

You have passed from death to life as long as you are believing in Christ. Even Calvinism says this. Even Calvinism, from where 'once saved always saved' comes from says you have to keep believing, or else you weren't really saved.

 

[Hevosmies]

You are forever perfect in Christ as long as you are believing. Even Calvinism, from where your 'once saved always saved' doctrine comes from, teaches this.


You have passed from death to life as long as you are believing in Christ. Even Calvinism says this. Even Calvinism, from where 'once saved always saved' comes from says you have to keep believing, or else you weren't really saved.

Calvinism teaches perseverance of the saints. I also believe that. Eternal security of the BELIEVER. If you profess the christian faith today, and are worshiping in a hindu temple tomorrow, you are clearly not born again / saved.
God will see to it that those born again persevere till the end!

I posted on the previous page of this topic what I believe and I think it matches with the Bible and reconciles everything. The modern teaching of once saved always saved is not perseverance of the saints, it is often times what is mentioned in Jude. I have heard some independent fundamental baptists of the KJVOnly kind say that you can believe on the Lord Jesus now, later in life become an atheist and STILL be saved. That I believe is absolutely wicked false doctrine and rotten to the core. Unbiblical and I would classify that as this:

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I think it would be the people who don't walk in God's grace that get accused of using that grace as a license to sin.

That is true, to some extent. But we also read about Paul — And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? (Rom 3:8). And we know that there were some who followed Paul (and others who traveled with Paul) around as they traveled from city to city. Paul would preach about the liberty in Christ Jesus in which we are to stand fast and when he left to travel to another locale, false brethren would come in to bring the church into bondage (And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage — Gal 2:4).

That describes the church very well today. They brag on God's grace but don't live in it. They think the proper understanding of God's grace is it let's them live carefree in their old lives. They can deny it all they want but that is exactly what they show by their lives that they believe. That's not a complete understanding of God's grace. That shows how much they do not understand the power of the grace of God.

Not talking about the struggle with sin. I'm talking about willfully and knowingly and without care indulging the sensual desires of our western society. All in the name of grace. They are not ready for Christ's return. But 'once saved always saved' has deceived them into thinking they are.

And then there's the pastor who welcomes all into the church and who reaches out to the most destitute, or those who struggle with addiction, or _____ (fill in the blank) ... the pastor who has a Christ-like love for the cast offs of society. And those who appear to be the "dregs of society" are welcomed into the church, the pastor feeds them and works hard to help them overcome their struggle.

Some who see the drug addicted man or woman attend a church and then continue in their struggle with their addition and their little baby-steps in Christ. They then presume the pastor teaches grace "let's them live carefree in their old lives" when they have no idea of the bondage in which the addict finds him/herself and struggles to be released from.

And I know you are not one who would accuse that pastor of teaching "let's them live carefree in their old lives", but there are others who do. And I have seen that pastor stand accused, yet stand firm and not let go of those on whom society has turned its back, even when only a small number actually overcome that bondage to addiction.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

And check out Titus 2, where we are told what the grace of God teaches us:

Titus 2:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.


Some people accuse those who walk in God's grace of using that grace as a license to sin. Sad, really, because it reveals a complete misunderstanding of the power of the grace of God.

Yes JESUS paid the price for sin on our behalf with his blood and GOD accepted HIS sacrifice so then sin Is no longer the Issue but the Issue now Is faith In the WORD of GOD.

 

[Lillywolf]

Jesus said no one will take us from his hand. For me, that seals it. Naysayers don't trump Christ and what he died to insure in the covenant that is written in the blood of God's only begotten son.
John 10:28-30 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

 

[dcontroversal]

These conversations often boil down to "How much can I sin and get away with it?". And when this charge is laid, the two parties respond accordingly:

The OSAS side claims that individual was never truly saved, if his life shows no fruit of the Spirit and no changed life at all.
The youcanloseyoursalvation side claims that the individual was indeed saved, but sinned too much and now has lost his salvation. (The amount of how much sin is too much is rarely mentioned, or discussed).

I am somewhere in the middle, I believe that a born again individual will produce fruit, and his life will be one of obedience, rather than disobedience.

There are only two ways one walks, in the flesh or in the spirit, in disobedience or obedience. The bible tells us what produces what:

Romans 6:12-17
Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

When you start a post with a generalized lie....the whole post is a lie!!! Or a deceptive false allegation....this whole post is a farce and deceptive at best.....! No one I know teaches what you accuse of in the first two lines...

 

[LW97]

Calvinism teaches perseverance of the saints. I also believe that. Eternal security of the BELIEVER. If you profess the christian faith today, and are worshiping in a hindu temple tomorrow, you are clearly not born again / saved.
God will see to it that those born again persevere till the end!

I posted on the previous page of this topic what I believe and I think it matches with the Bible and reconciles everything. The modern teaching of once saved always saved is not perseverance of the saints, it is often times what is mentioned in Jude. I have heard some independent fundamental baptists of the KJVOnly kind say that you can believe on the Lord Jesus now, later in life become an atheist and STILL be saved. That I believe is absolutely wicked false doctrine and rotten to the core. Unbiblical and I would classify that as this:

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Calvinism is false tho except for eternal security

 

[UnderGrace]

Calvinism is false tho except for eternal security

"Perseverance" of the saints is not really a doctrine of eternal security.

 

[LW97]

"Perseverance" of the saints is not really a doctrine of eternal security.

Amen, yes to preservation of the saints, no to perseverance of the saints

 

[LW97]

"Perseverance" of the saints is not really a doctrine of eternal security.

Oh, and Romans 6:14 technically is an eternal security verse too

 

[Chester]

This is a sincere question to mostly those who already believe they are eternally secure (OSAS), and cannot lose their Salvation because Jesus is the One who gave it to them and keeps it secure.

I know there are umpteen OSAS threads, and that can certainly and most likely will be discussed here as EVERY thread eventually boils down to that.

But what I'm asking is are those that don't believe in eternal security saved? I honestly don't know, but would like to hear your thoughts on this issue. At one time I thought you COULD lose your Salvation. I knew who Jesus is (God in the flesh) and what He has done (die to pay for our sin and resurrected to life after 3 days) but also thought that I could lose that Salvation for "willing sin" or disobedience in not totally following Him.

Others here believe they could lose their Salvation for additional reasons. So my question is does thinking you can lose your Salvation equate to NOT being saved?

May God Bless you all!

If those who do not believe in eternal security are not saved, then salvation has become mental assent to a doctrine rather than belief in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[LW97]

If those who do not believe in eternal security are not saved, then salvation has become mental assent to a doctrine rather than belief in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.

amen