No Eternal Security = No Salvation?

[NayborBear]

See, now that is the problem. I was speaking about sanctification (also called christian growth) and your talking about salvation, they are two different subjects. If you want to talk about sanctification, we can, But right now we are talking about salvation. Salvation is a different topic. How sanctified one gets there has no bearing on ones salvation. If one is never saved, he will never be sanctified, Think of it this way,

1. Salvation is entering through the gate
2. Santification is the walk we walk after we are saved until we reach our final desitination, Heaven. Not everyone will walk the same path. Again, Some, Like paul will walk along distance, others like the corinthian church will not walk far. Pual lived a full blessed life, even in his suffering which he called a momentary light affliction because his faith grew leaps and bounds, The corinthian church were living short empty lives, because of sin, and a failure to grow their faith. Yet both were called children of God and both reached the destination God promised them as will all his children no matter how far they walk and how much they grow their faith.

So please. Try to stick to the proper subject.. Thats why people get confused, they mix salvation and sanctification saying they are dependent on each other which is not true. While begining sanctification is deendent on salvation, that is the only connection, and salvation is not dependent on sanctification at all;.



Sadly, I am beginning to think we do.

Name one person who says this? I hope you know this line of reasoning is getting old and outdated. And it is really starting to get on peoples nervs, and is most likely one of the reasons these debates get so heated all the time. Because your doing the very thing you claim people are doing to do. And assuming people are saying something they have never said, will never say, and are not saying. No one here says once a person comes to christ their journey is complet and they can just sit on their behinds and do nothing. That is a strawman you either have conjoured up or people have told you, and sadly, is an excuse to remain in your legalistic mindset.



You do not have to determine it for yourself. The bible tells you what they have done. The bible says you will be hld accountable for what you believe, And that we are to study to shew purselves approved, a workman who rightly divides the word. The bible tells you the answer. Eternal life is eternal. Conditional life is condition. What does Jesus promise, Did he say he perfected forever those who are being sanctified, Or did he say he will in the futyure perfect them, Did he say they passed from death to life, or did he say they were in a purgatorial state and have t prove themselves worthy before they are passed all the way to life?



If your warning people they can lose salvation if they do not live up to some standard you think they have to live up to. You are spreading a false gospel. Plain and simple.there is no debate on that issue according to the word. Period.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

And then? In your very first statement? You say they are 2 different topics? "See, now that is the problem. I was speaking about sanctification (also called christian growth) and your talking about salvation, they are two different subjects."

It is not I, EG, promoting a false gospel! One CANNOT, or MUST NOT try and separate ANY of these REQUIREMENTS!

Having said that, I was "attacked" by the spirit of anti christ and powers of darkness and princapalities, which is why I've not been on for several days. aka I was "sick!"

I thank God and the Father of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, for pulling me out of it. Giving credence to the saying: That which doesn't kill you, makes you stronger!

I do agree with you, however, that not all believers are sanctified giants! And, I dare say, that some are even deluded into believing a lie! But, it is for their OWN benefit! As it is more beneficial TO, and FOR the Glory of God, and His Kingdom, to seek, and be forgiven for believing a lie, then it would be in "losing" a single soul, for committing something for which there is NO forgiveness!

For this is something God HIMSELF sees fit to do, for the advancing of His Kingdom, and that of Jesus Christ! As well, as His Good Pleasure! As it humors Him how "certain" ones of His children, react to a variety of circumstances, and scenerio's!

 

[UnderGrace]

Not talking about the struggle with sin. I'm talking about willfully and knowingly and without care indulging the sensual desires of our western society. All in the name of grace. They are not ready for Christ's return. But 'once saved always saved' has deceived them into thinking they are.

And exactly how are you able to measure this "willfully and knowingly?"

Do you talk to these people who are destroying your idealized version of church building life?

They think the proper understanding of God's grace is it let's them live carefree in their old lives. They can deny it all they want but that is exactly what they show by their lives that they believe.

You make so many false assumptions and grandiose accusations of this "they" group.

Your doctrine does nothing to rectify any false understanding of the grace of God.

Why you may ask?

If God's grace is the source that empowers against sin how can a person under grace indulge in sin, this is a direct contradiction!!!

Your remedy is to promote the "loss of salvation" doctrine therefore you promote a false gospel of kept salvation based on good behavior.

Here is another surprise,.......... a person can keep on believing and trusting (Ralph's dogma) and sin to their heart's content too as long as they believe they covered by the blood right????

At the heart of your doctrine you are promoting law keeping with a thin veneer of this redefined belief to make it sound legit and outside of legalism. Really you do not have anyone fooled!!

 

[Ralph-]

And exactly how are you able to measure this "willfully and knowingly?"

The same way the Bible does:

"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth "-Hebrews 10:26

I know you're familiar with the passage.

If God's grace is the source that empowers against sin how can a person under grace indulge in sin, this is a direct contradiction!!!

How? By not believing in the grace of God anymore.

People go back to the world of sin they came from because they have either never received the grace of God, or they have rejected it after receiving it. So I agree with you, if they still had the grace of God and were holding fast to it they would not be willfully indulging sin. You have to cast the grace of God away from you (or never have received it in the first place) to go back to the world.

Your remedy is to promote the "loss of salvation" doctrine therefore you promote a false gospel of kept salvation based on good behavior.

NO! It's loss of salvation based on loss of faith with bad behavior being the consequence and sign of that loss of faith.

Here is another surprise,.......... a person can keep on believing and trusting (Ralph's dogma) and sin to their heart's content too as long as they believe they covered by the blood right????

The fact that they are sinning to their heart's content shows they are no longer believing and trusting in the blood of Christ.

At the heart of your doctrine you are promoting law keeping with a thin veneer of this redefined belief to make it sound legit and outside of legalism. Really you do not have anyone fooled!!

Obedience is the outcome of having faith in Christ. That's why it's the sign of whether or not you have faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sin and are continuing in it. When that faith ceases you go back to disobedience.


Keep trying, UG.

 

[preston39]

This is a sincere question to mostly those who already believe they are eternally secure (OSAS), and cannot lose their Salvation because Jesus is the One who gave it to them and keeps it secure.

I know there are umpteen OSAS threads, and that can certainly and most likely will be discussed here as EVERY thread eventually boils down to that.

But what I'm asking is are those that don't believe in eternal security saved? I honestly don't know, but would like to hear your thoughts on this issue. At one time I thought you COULD lose your Salvation. I knew who Jesus is (God in the flesh) and what He has done (die to pay for our sin and resurrected to life after 3 days) but also thought that I could lose that Salvation for "willing sin" or disobedience in not totally following Him.

Others here believe they could lose their Salvation for additional reasons. So my question is does thinking you can lose your Salvation equate to NOT being saved?

May God Bless you all!

P...,

First allow me to point out that the OSAS concept never existed (from ongoing research to date)...prior to the 1960's. In such era we experienced a great social and moral upheaval resulting in a mirrored of new Bible interpretations...including ...OSAS. It is revealing that there is little to no recorded mention of the concept or...term ....prior..... in history.

No one can seem to answer and actually are reluctant to approach an answer. Why is that? My opinion ....it was a new way to approach the Bible and still experience living a life as one wishes while maintaining some semblance of being a christian.

Coalesced with that process was the miss application of the term..."saved". This also is misleading.
If we say we are saved while alive here on earth we preempt G-d's plan which calls for judgement of our righteous life after death. I doubt He appreciates that...much.

While on this earth....in these temporary bodies....we can only be repented, baptized and living a righteous life.......not saved as some profess. I learned in, I believe Miss Jones 4th grade English class that....ed ...means finished, done over with, complete, past tense. That definition has not changed...nor will it.

That is the common sense answer notwithstanding several scripture references which relegates the concept to the dung heap.

 

[Lillywolf]

If we're going into histrionics concerning terms, "trinity" doesn't actually appear in the written scriptures either. But it is a foundation stone of the faith.

In my opinion, "OSAS" as it is termed , is a confluence of facts that secure the believer in Christ for eternity. While also , for those who read the Gospel scriptures, outline what God would have to undo in order for us to not be eternally secure in the grace He gave unto those who he said he knew before the world was created.
If God knows for whom the Gospel truth shall resonate, he would certainly know that it would not for long if someone who was regenerated by God's will alone were false. "God giveth and God taketh away." If that pertains to our salvation, then God didn't know as much as he thought He did in the beginning. And we're all delusional thinking God saves, because we ourselves must do that if we can then choose to renounce salvation and go back to being damned.

What a picture.
A false one.

 

[Ralph-]

secure the believer in Christ for eternity.

Yes, the BELIEVER. Not the fake believer, not the former believer, but the present BELIEVER.

Those who never believed and those who stop believing do not have eternal life.

 

[BaptistBibleBeliever]

Yes, the BELIEVER. Not the fake believer, not the former believer, but the present BELIEVER.

Those who never believed and those who stop believing do not have eternal life.

To stop believing is analogous to a living person that stops breathing (just because he wants to) . . . It isn't 'my' faith, but 'His' faith. Will He stop believing? That would be the only way. Galatians 2:20.

You ascribe quite a bit to a dead man . . . seeing as we are dead 'in Christ.'

 

[Lillywolf]

To stop believing is analogous to a living person that stops breathing (just because he wants to) . . . It isn't 'my' faith, but 'His' faith. Will He stop believing? That would be the only way. Galatians 2:20.

You ascribe quite a bit to a dead man . . . seeing as we are dead 'in Christ.'

You're not yet dead. Nor am I.
Dead in Christ pertains to those who have died yet held the faith in Christ. Their spirit returns to the God that gave it. Their body to the dust from whence it sprang.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

This is a sincere question to mostly those who already believe they are eternally secure (OSAS), and cannot lose their Salvation because Jesus is the One who gave it to them and keeps it secure.

I know there are umpteen OSAS threads, and that can certainly and most likely will be discussed here as EVERY thread eventually boils down to that.

But what I'm asking is are those that don't believe in eternal security saved? I honestly don't know, but would like to hear your thoughts on this issue. At one time I thought you COULD lose your Salvation. I knew who Jesus is (God in the flesh) and what He has done (die to pay for our sin and resurrected to life after 3 days) but also thought that I could lose that Salvation for "willing sin" or disobedience in not totally following Him.

Others here believe they could lose their Salvation for additional reasons. So my question is does thinking you can lose your Salvation equate to NOT being saved?

May God Bless you all!

NO! Not the way I understand it. I probably allow, by my belief of eternal salvation, more people to enter into everlasting life than anyone on this forum. I believe that they are as many as the grains of sand on the seashore. The scriptures says they are not able to be numbered.

 

[Rosemaryx]

I'm truly befuddled by this post. I asked a question that I several times said I WASN'T SURE of the answer!

So who am I judging? I think it's possible that those who don't believe they are eternally secure, haven't put their full trust in Jesus, and partially trust in their FOLLOWING Jesus for Salvation, and aren't saved because of that.

I also think it's possible these people ARE saved but haven't been given the revelation yet that Jesus will NEVER leave them and are eternally secure. I just don't know which is true, and wanted to hear others thoughts on this question. But I certainly haven't judged ANYONE.

That is it , they do not believe they are secure in Christ , they doubt their Salvation , does not the word of GOD give us security as we delve deeper into His Word...xox...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation THROUGH sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

And then? In your very first statement? You say they are 2 different topics? "See, now that is the problem. I was speaking about sanctification (also called christian growth) and your talking about salvation, they are two different subjects."

It is not I, EG, promoting a false gospel! One CANNOT, or MUST NOT try and separate ANY of these REQUIREMENTS!

Having said that, I was "attacked" by the spirit of anti christ and powers of darkness and princapalities, which is why I've not been on for several days. aka I was "sick!"

I thank God and the Father of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, for pulling me out of it. Giving credence to the saying: That which doesn't kill you, makes you stronger!

I do agree with you, however, that not all believers are sanctified giants! And, I dare say, that some are even deluded into believing a lie! But, it is for their OWN benefit! As it is more beneficial TO, and FOR the Glory of God, and His Kingdom, to seek, and be forgiven for believing a lie, then it would be in "losing" a single soul, for committing something for which there is NO forgiveness!

For this is something God HIMSELF sees fit to do, for the advancing of His Kingdom, and that of Jesus Christ! As well, as His Good Pleasure! As it humors Him how "certain" ones of His children, react to a variety of circumstances, and scenerio's!

Yes it is you, The fact you think you can meet some requirement shows you do not understand the gospel.
So I will just wish you good luck good luck trying to work to earn your salvation. Me? I will continue t trust in the blood of christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If those who do not believe in eternal security are not saved, then salvation has become mental assent to a doctrine rather than belief in the atoning blood of Jesus Christ.

If you trusted in the atonment of the blood of Christ. You would not wonder if you a=had eternal security, you would know you had it. Thus there owuld be no question of it.

The fact one thinks he may not be eternallly secure shows he is not trustin gn the blood. But in himself. Either way. He lacks faith in God.

 

[Rosemaryx]

If you trusted in the atonment of the blood of Christ. You would not wonder if you a=had eternal security, you would know you had it. Thus there owuld be no question of it.

The fact one thinks he may not be eternallly secure shows he is not trustin gn the blood. But in himself. Either way. He lacks faith in God.

Jesus tells us we are secure in Him...Those who do not have security in Chris are lukewarm , I heard once that the devil owns the fence , Jesus will spit them out from His mouth ...How can someone be saved by Gods grace and not believe they are saved for eternal , I just do not get it...xox...

 

[preston39]

If we're going into histrionics concerning terms, "trinity" doesn't actually appear in the written scriptures either. But it is a foundation stone of the faith.

Saved....is hardly histrionics.
Those are apples compared to oranges.
Rapture is not in scriptures either and none of those are related references.

In my opinion, "OSAS" as it is termed , is a confluence of facts that secure the believer in Christ for eternity.

...and you are wrong. It is a miss application of the biblical word that only G-d can apply.

...a false one.

L...,

Then you are saying the Bible is false....take that one up with G-d. Be blessed in that trip.

 

[Rosemaryx]

L...,

Then you are saying the Bible is false....take that one up with G-d. Be blessed in that trip.

Hi Preston...I am so curious why you type God with the missing O , what does that mean , I genuinely want to know , I have seen a few people do this but I do not understand why , please explain to me...xox...

 

[preston39]

NO! Not the way I understand it. I probably allow, by my belief of eternal salvation, more people to enter into everlasting life than anyone on this forum. I believe that they are as many as the grains of sand on the seashore. The scriptures says they are not able to be numbered.

F...,

I pray you are correct. But, we must deal with G-d's word which cautions that ...many will miss..a few will find, gate is narrow, etc.
Caution, caution, caution.

 

[Chester]

If you trusted in the atonment of the blood of Christ. You would not wonder if you a=had eternal security, you would know you had it. Thus there owuld be no question of it.

The fact one thinks he may not be eternallly secure shows he is not trustin gn the blood. But in himself. Either way. He lacks faith in God.

Jesus tells us we are secure in Him...Those who do not have security in Chris are lukewarm , I heard once that the devil owns the fence , Jesus will spit them out from His mouth ...How can someone be saved by Gods grace and not believe they are saved for eternal , I just do not get it...xox...

I trust in Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection for my salvation and now because I do not believe in the doctrine of "eternal security" I am told on this forum that I do not trust in the blood, that I lack faith in God, and that Jesus will spit me out of His mouth.

Nevertheless I know who I have believed and I am persuaded that He is able and will keep me safe and secure because of the blood sacrifice of His Son. I believe! I believe! And because of Jesus Christ I am secure in Him!

 

[preston39]

....I think this vastly differs from the one who does not believe in eternal security, but has no fear of losing it because they actually count on THEIR following, and obedience to save them.....This question may boil down to these 2 type groups that disbelieve in eternal security.

P...
OSAS has no relation to one who doesn't believe in eternal security. If so then they do not understand the basics of The Bible.
OSAS has to do with...when we are saved...not..... if we can be saved.

If I understand your point here.

 

[preston39]

Those that teach one can lose that 'free gift' which the Saviour gave are pulling verses from the gospels . . . men did not understand the grace of God until Paul revealed the mystery of the gospel in the epistles.

"Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into" (I Peter 1:9-12).

B...,

You are wrongly concluding what OSAS means to that believer.

The free gift must be received...first....then it cannot be lost. We cannot conclude that we are entitled to that ...free gift...until G-d passes judgement on us after death, for the receipt thereof.

I for one will not conclude that I can usurp G-d's planned judgement on me after my physical death. That will not happen.

 

[preston39]

Hi Preston...I am so curious why you type God with the missing O , what does that mean , I genuinely want to know , I have seen a few people do this but I do not understand why , please explain to me...xox...

R...,

Hi...thanks for the question.
It has to do with the most high respect and reverence for G-d.
Best explained here;


"Why do we leave out the "o" G-d?

A Note About the Spelling of G-d's Name

Why do we leave out the "o" when referring to G-d? According to Hebrew tradition we do not write out the Creator's name in any language, unless as part of a printed book which we know will be preserved with dignity and treated as holy. Refraining from writing out His name is a sign of reverence and awe for the Creator. If this name were to be written out and then, the paper on which it was written would become lost or destroyed, or even if it was brought into an unclean place, this would be showing disrespect and it would be a desecration of His name."

Hope this helps.