No gentile has ever been under Mosaic law

[FlyingDove]

There were people from other nations also present at Mt Sinai

Here's what I know:

After Jacob wrestles with the Lord Gen 32:24-30. The Lord changes Jacobs name to Israel.

Jacob's 12 sons become the 12 Tribes of Israel. Each son receives a portion of the promised land. Except Levi/Levites, Levi's Tribe was chosen to be the priests. Moses & his brother Aaron (later chose by God/when is rod budded - Num 17:1-11 - became 1st Levitical high priest) were both Levites.

Ex 1:1 records the names of the "Sons of Israel" who came to Egypt with Jacob; each came with his household:

Ex 1:7 the ""Israelites"" were prolific and increased greatly; they multiplied and became extremely strong, so that the land was filled with them.

If there were slaves (other then Israeli) that left Egypt.

(A) The night before they left. they partook in the Passover meal:

Ex 12:43-48. No foreigners, servants, sojourners or strangers could partake in the in the Passover meal unless they were circumcised.
(MY NOTE: Under the Mosaic covenant, only those of the circumcision were allowed to eat the Passover meal. (Also see Gen 17:7-14)

(B) When they get to Sinai, they are given a choice. They ALL agreed to enter into the this covenant with the Lord.

BTW: This is the 1st Pentecost & the Nation of Israel was born. Under this covenant (that people today tenaciously try to put everyone under) 3000 souls perished/were killed (Ex 32:28) for non-compliance.

A striking difference from the 1st Post resurrection Pentecost. Where the new covenant Church is born. 3000 souls are eternally saved (Acts 2:41) thru faith. When Christ pours out/baptizes them in/with His salvation sealing, indwelling Holy Spirit. Peace, JJ

 

[Blik]

What about the gentiles through out the old testament such as Ruth, and Uriah the Bite, and some other gentiles who helped Israel?

Four woman were mentioned in Matthew's genealogy of Jesus: Tamar, Rahab, Ruth, and Bathsheba. All had tarnished reputations, and Rahab was a gentile, Ruth was a converted Jew.

God judges people according to whether they are forgiven and saved, or according to their rejection of what God offers us.

 

[Blackpowderduelist]

God judges people according to whether they are forgiven and saved, or according to their rejection of what God offers us.

I agree with this. All salvation has always been by grace, through faith, according to His word.

 

[oldethennew]

EX. 12:49.
One Law shall be to him that is home-born, and unto the stranger that sojourns among you.
NUM. 15:15.
One ordinance shall be both for you of the congregation, and also for the 'stranger' that sojourns with you,
an ordinance 'for ever' in your generations: as you are, so shall the stranger be before The LORD.
the point is, that even though Yeshua has a 'chosen people', He is no respecter of persons', and this
means, that he that is 'righteous, whether Jew or Gentile, finds 'favor in God's eyes, and is included
in the 'body of Jesus Christ', whether Jew or Gentile - and thus this brings us into the scripture that
tells us about (SPIRITUAL JEWS), which is very simple to understand; He has made a WAY for 'gentiles'
to be included into the (Children of Promise) = Praise God for His Grace and Mercy!!!

 

[Guojing]

I find it difficult to have a rational set of communications with you. Sorry.

I was being cordial to you all the time right?

But you are free to decide who you want to engage with, cheers

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I was being cordial to you all the time right?

But you are free to decide who you want to engage with, cheers

I'd love to chat with you, but I don't follow your logic as it relates to things that have been shared with you. It's probably me and my limited intellect.

 

[Blik]

Ruth & Uriah, proselyte's, I can't find Bite..

Ruth was a Moabite married to a Jewish man, so she became a converted Jew. Uriah was the husband of Bathsheba who David had killed by assigning him to a deadly position in war so he could marry Bathsheba.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I believe these verses support the OP statement. You are free to disagree, no harm, no foul. Best wishes, JJ

The problem we (as a church) have today is that we have been fed muddy water for the last 2000 years. Hitler proved that in a short time you can convince people of your lies by repeating them. People buy into that kind of thing.

Now what I mean by muddy water is, the church have been miss led by its leaders now for a long time and doctrines are being changed to accommodate views and political agendas. So we have to go back to the Word and forget about what we were taught and connect the dots and see Yeshua's salvation unfold in front of our eyes.

Romans teach us that we have always been saved by grace through faith, even if you were part of the nation Israel and under the Law. If we understand this the question will be asked, why did God gave the Law then? The Law (or Instructions) were given to Israel to separate them from the rest of the nations.

The Tabernacle was created to represent Jesus and even if you look at the way Israel camped around the the Tabernacle, it was in the form of a cross. Everything in the OT is a shadow of Yeshua; the feasts, the Tabernacle, the names, the genealogy, the mountain names.... everything you touch is a picture of Jesus. If we can't find Jesus in the Law and see His gentleness we are reading it wrong. Jesus kept the Law to the last letter and yet we say gentle Jesus mild an meek. The Law is love just like our Savior is love. We have to study the word if we don't see it that way and trust God for a revelation to teach us from His word.

 

[Blik]

Romans teach us that we have always been saved by grace through faith, even if you were part of the nation Israel and under the Law. If we understand this the question will be asked, why did God gave the Law then? The Law (or Instructions) were given to Israel to separate them from the rest of the nations. .

It is true we have always been saved by grace, but then you state that Israel is under law for salvation. This is not so. It is an eternal truth that no one has ever been saved through law obedience.

In Romans we are told that the law happened when sin happened. Genesis tells us that sin came into our world through Adam and Eve, so THAT is when the law happened.

It is so true that all scripture is about Christ even if we divide it between old and new. In the old testament it is about the shadow of Christ, but scripture is about the forgiveness of sin that is salvation and it is only through blood (the blood of Christ) that salvation was ever given.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

It is true we have always been saved by grace, but then you state that Israel is under law for salvation. This is not so. It is an eternal truth that no one has ever been saved through law obedience.

In Romans we are told that the law happened when sin happened. Genesis tells us that sin came into our world through Adam and Eve, so THAT is when the law happened.

It is so true that all scripture is about Christ even if we divide it between old and new. In the old testament it is about the shadow of Christ, but scripture is about the forgiveness of sin that is salvation and it is only through blood (the blood of Christ) that salvation was ever given.

I never said the law was given to them for salvation. If it came across like that I apologize but that is not what I believe

 

[TMS]

Jew and Gentile, Law and covenant. Take a step back....
We sinned. WE ARE LOST IN SIN, death rains over us because of sin. Both Jews and Gentiles need a solution and that is Jesus Christ.
The law points out our sin and all have sinned, so it doesn't mater if your old or new, Jew or gentile we are all in the same boat.

If the law that defines sin was taken away by Jesus we can not sin today..... but the law remains and the penalty was paid by Jesus.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

 

[FlyingDove]

The Law is love just like our Savior is love.

In my opinion the Law is love position is antithetical to scripture.

When properly implemented the law KILLS without mercy:

Numbers 15:32 a man gathered sticks on the sabbath day. Vs 33, he's brought before Moses, Aaron & all the congregation. Vs 34, he's locked up until they seek God's council. Vs 35, the Lord say's STONE him to DEATH. Vs 36, the CONGREGATION STONED him to DEATH as commanded by Lord & Moses.

Lev 20:10, anyone that commits adultery PUT THEM TO DEATH.

Ex 22:18 KILL every witch (WITHOUT MERCY)

Ex 35:2 KILL anybody that does any work (temple priests were excluded) on the Sabbath

Paul's Holy Spirit inspired writing also disagree with a, law is love, position:

He cites the law written & engraved in stones. As the ministration of death (vs 7) & the ministration of condemnation (vs 9)

2 Cor 3:
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
(MY NOTE: Written to believers (2 Cor 1:1) The letter/law/administers death. But, the NT Holy Spirit's administration is life giving).

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
(MY NOTE: The apostle calls the 10 commandments the ministration of death)

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
(MY NOTE: The apostle calls the 10 commandments the ministration of condemnation)

Rom 4:15 (A) the law worketh wrath

Gal 3:19 It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made
(MY NOTE: Because of sin the law was added & in effect, UNTIL, Christ/the promised seed should come)

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith
(MY NOTE: The law is a teacher, it's purpose is to identify, expose & without mercy condemn sin. Having said that, we don't have to be (And Aren't!) under Mosaic law, to understand what sin is.)

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
(MY NOTE: The law via the prophets was preached, UNTIL, the arrival of Jesus the Christ)

Final point:
Fundamentally, Mosaic law is just, BUT, it can't justify anyone. The law is holy, BUT, can't make anyone holy. The law is righteous, BUT, can't make anyone righteous.

If the law can't make us holy, righteous or justified, condemns without mercy unto death, was to be preached UNTIL Christ's arrival.

Why, are so many people tenaciously driven. To place today's NT believers under it's yoke of condemnation?

Rom 8:1 (A) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:14. Shalom, JJ

 

[Blik]

I never said the law was given to them for salvation. If it came across like that I apologize but that is not what I believe

Doesn't being under the law mean that you use the law to be saved? When we are under grace, we are saved through grace.

I understood that in the old testament, it makes much of the secular blessings that come from obedience, and it is a common misconception that the Lord teaches that salvation was also given for obedience, but old testament scripture never says that, it only speaks of grace and forgiveness through blood.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Doesn't being under the law mean that you use the law to be saved? When we are under grace, we are saved through grace.

I understood that in the old testament, it makes much of the secular blessings that come from obedience, and it is a common misconception that the Lord teaches that salvation was also given for obedience, but old testament scripture never says that, it only speaks of grace and forgiveness through blood.

The Old Testament teaches about True Salvation, which is Circumcision of the Heart as described in Colossians 2:9-15. Ezekiel chapters 11 and 36 speak about it clearly, that God will place new Hearts and spirits within His True Remnant. Deut 30:6 also speaks of Circumcision of the Heart . . . and there are others.

The Lord has His Mysterious Plan hidden behind the word circumcision, which no one can seem to handle. When thinking of circumcision, people needs to stop thinking about a man's "junk" and thinking about Abraham, our Father of Faith, and try to figure out when his Heart was actually Circumcised by Christ.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

[

Doesn't being under the law mean that you use the law to be saved? When we are under grace, we are saved through grace.

I understood that in the old testament, it makes much of the secular blessings that come from obedience, and it is a common misconception that the Lord teaches that salvation was also given for obedience, but old testament scripture never says that, it only speaks of grace and forgiveness through blood.

your argument is that grace means no obedience necessary ? There is Gods grace which teaches us to repent and do good and that’s how we’re saved by grace

this is how Gods grace saves

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭KJV‬



the law doesn’t offer salvation at all it’s a curse because no one is perfect

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭

The only purpose of the law is to reveal sin to sinners and thier condemation for sin

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬

grace that saves us teaches us to repent and do good that’s how Gods grace saves us from the death sentence of the law upon every soul that has sinned.

grace in no way means sin is now acceptable or obedience is not needed the gospel is where Gods grave is found in his teachings and mercy

Obedience and repentance are always central the difference is how we get there through effort or belief consider this important point about obedience and then see if it seems irrelevant

“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:15-18, 22-23‬ ‭

Gods grace moves us to repentance because of the teachings of Jesus Christ repentance is necessary and obedience is to become our nature not a struggle

“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:2-3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Christians need to realize Gods ways are the way to salvation none of us are perfect but all of us need to believe

 

[Blik]

[
your argument is that grace means no obedience necessary ?
Gods grace moves us to repentance because of the teachings of Jesus Christ repentance is necessary and obedience is to become our nature not a struggle

Christians need to realize Gods ways are the way to salvation none of us are perfect but all of us need to believe

I agree. We are made the same as perfect through Christ, as if we were righteous. We are to accept and thank the lord for this forgiveness, it would be like stabbing ourselves to not want to keep ourselves that way, or as scripture puts it, to repent of sin.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree. We are made the same as perfect through Christ, as if we were righteous. We are to accept and thank the lord for this forgiveness, it would be like stabbing ourselves to not want to keep ourselves that way, or as scripture puts it, to repent of sin.

the means by which we are
Made right is belief of the gospel

this is the issue that causes us to sin

“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭7:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

righteousness comes from that heart because we believe the gospel

adulteries and fornications come from our heart and mind our thinking and musings so this commandment needs to be accepted this is where you find the distinction between the law of Moses and the gospel

Moses spoke to man through thier flesh so the commandment is “do not do it “

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

( but to the spirit of a believer it is said by the lord)

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

belief of the gospel circumcised from our hearts the motivations that tempt us through our mind. It’s why the gospel and belief is what saves of we believe the truth , it cleanses the lie and corrects our belief

if a believer holds to Jesus word about list in the heart , they will then begin noticing thier thiught life more and what happens is we begin to recognize temptation in us , before it becomes sin that condemns us and we deal with the thinking so it doesn’t lead us into sin

his blood is the sacrifice of atonement but this doesn’t cancel his word his word is the source of our righteousness it comes by believing the truth of Christ

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

belief is the thing that ties all
Of it together we have to believe the one God sent to teach us the truth

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭

we need grace that’s the truth and not the distorted grace that eliminates repentance and obedience

we see Gods grace comes with a call to repentance

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭5:32‬ ‭KJV‬‬


What does that is believing the gospel the spiritual commandments that Jesus gave I showed the one regarding lust one of them anyways but it’s the same with all the things we struggle with

a person who is angry and violent need to believe the gospel

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment:

and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:21-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The grace of God exists in those verses the power to circumcise the things inwardly that lead us to sin outwardly

a good heart is a good life a wicked heart a wicked life . There is forgiveness and I think we know his sacrifice is the source but there’s also the word of truth we need to accept and believe

“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That word of truth we believe is our new birth inwardly the word saves souls

“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:18-22‬ ‭

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree. We are made the same as perfect through Christ, as if we were righteous. We are to accept and thank the lord for this forgiveness, it would be like stabbing ourselves to not want to keep ourselves that way, or as scripture puts it, to repent of sin.

are you saying that we are instantly changed to perfect ? That’s not at all what I was saying

 

[Blik]

are you saying that we are instantly changed to perfect ? That’s not at all what I was saying

"Instantly perfect"? I truly believe that when Christ forgives our sins it is done and we are saved from death. Even though we are still flesh, the fleshly thoughts and our sin does not kill any longer at that time. I guess that is instantly. It is as if we are perfect, and we need, then, to accept our forgiveness and live in a state of repentance from sin.

I truly object to your shouting with those caps, but I think all of them are truth. We are told there are people who even heal in the name of the Lord call on the name of the Lord, but the Lord does not know them, so we need to look at the bottom line. You have explained it.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Doesn't being under the law mean that you use the law to be saved? When we are under grace, we are saved through grace.

I understood that in the old testament, it makes much of the secular blessings that come from obedience, and it is a common misconception that the Lord teaches that salvation was also given for obedience, but old testament scripture never says that, it only speaks of grace and forgiveness through blood.

There is not one verse in the Bible (that I know of) that state the Law saves. The Law is a map to perfection but none could be perfect, except Yeshua .

Yeshua lived His life as a Jew and never once contradicted the Law, yet He showed grace and mercy when people approached Him. Is this in itself not contradicting the Law as described by many Christians today?

It is our understanding of the Law that is flawed and by investigating the life of our King we can see how to live Torah. May Yeshua give us wisdom to learn from Him and to teach one another in kindness.