I agree that James agrees with Paul, which is why I think Paul was speaking about not being justified by works that are done to earn it as a wage while James was speaking about being justified by works that are an expression of our faith. I do not think that our faith is the result of our works or that works are the result of our faith, but that choosing to do works is the way to have faith, which is why there are many verses that connect our faith with our works.
No more of works?
- Thread starter John146
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Working out our salvation is an aspect of our salvation that is ongoing in the present in regard to Jesus saving us from continuing to live in sin.
I did not claim that works proceed faith, but that works are the way to have faith. Equivalently, obeying the word of God is the way to have faith. If you came to an old bridge that someone told you was safe, then the way to have faith that it is safe is by being a crosser of that bridge.
I did not claim that works proceed faith, but that works are the way to have faith. Equivalently, obeying the word of God is the way to have faith. If you came to an old bridge that someone told you was safe, then the way to have faith that it is safe is by being a crosser of that bridge.
Before God and man because choosing to do works is the way to have faith and we are justified before by that faith. In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice between leaning on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes or trusting in God with all of our heart by correctly divide between right and wrong through being a doer of what He has instructed in all of our ways and He will make our way straight, so being a doer of what God has instructed is the way to trust God and we are justified by that trust. This is why every example of faith in Hebrews 11 is an example of works.
The only aspect of our salvation that is ongoing, is in its after- effect, which is upon those whom He has saved. When saved, there is no further ongoing salvation possible nor needed - it is eternally complete. Christ's offering is eternal, nothing beyond that is possible.
[Heb 10:16-18 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.
Did you read verse Romans 4:9 that I posted? In it, we are clearly informed that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness - its purpose, to bring righteousness to Abraham: only Christ's faith is righteous: man's faith is not, therefore, of itself, it is a direct violation of Christ. Christ's faith, on the other hand and alone is righteous, so any faith that Abraham might have mustered up of himself - had he even thought to do so(which he did not) - would have made Christ's faith unnecessary but Christ's faith was necessary, otherwise, the basis of the verse and the verse itself would be wrong, which is impossible. By that, we can clearly understand that any faith or works exhibited by Abraham (or by anyone who have becomes saved), had Christ within them, as its source.
Please look closely at these verses which explains the receiving of righteousness:
In Rom 1: 17 we are informed of faith unto faith - that is, Christ's faith reckoned to those whom He saves: faith from Christ to us.
[Rom 1:17 KJV] 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
In Phl 3:9, we are clearly informed that righteousness is obtained only through the faith of Christ and not by our faith.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[Heb 10:16-18 KJV]
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.
Did you read verse Romans 4:9 that I posted? In it, we are clearly informed that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness - its purpose, to bring righteousness to Abraham: only Christ's faith is righteous: man's faith is not, therefore, of itself, it is a direct violation of Christ. Christ's faith, on the other hand and alone is righteous, so any faith that Abraham might have mustered up of himself - had he even thought to do so(which he did not) - would have made Christ's faith unnecessary but Christ's faith was necessary, otherwise, the basis of the verse and the verse itself would be wrong, which is impossible. By that, we can clearly understand that any faith or works exhibited by Abraham (or by anyone who have becomes saved), had Christ within them, as its source.
Please look closely at these verses which explains the receiving of righteousness:
In Rom 1: 17 we are informed of faith unto faith - that is, Christ's faith reckoned to those whom He saves: faith from Christ to us.
[Rom 1:17 KJV] 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
In Phl 3:9, we are clearly informed that righteousness is obtained only through the faith of Christ and not by our faith.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
If what we are doing is just the fruit of having first been saved, then it is something different than our salvation, but it says to work out our salvation. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself both to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of His own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so that is also the ongoing aspect of our salvation that is in accordance with what he completed through the cross.
It doesn't say that Abraham was counted as righteous by Christ's faith, but that Abraham believed God and that was counted to him as righteousness. The way to have faith in Christ is by obeying God's instructions and Christ expresses his faith by obeying God's instructions, so faith in Christ has the same content as the faith of Christ, which means that you are making a moot point. The one and only way that to become righteous is by faith and what we are becoming when we become righteous is someone who practices righteousness in obedience to God's instructions through faith. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith and in Isiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's instructions.
It doesn't say that Abraham was counted as righteous by Christ's faith, but that Abraham believed God and that was counted to him as righteousness. The way to have faith in Christ is by obeying God's instructions and Christ expresses his faith by obeying God's instructions, so faith in Christ has the same content as the faith of Christ, which means that you are making a moot point. The one and only way that to become righteous is by faith and what we are becoming when we become righteous is someone who practices righteousness in obedience to God's instructions through faith. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith and in Isiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's instructions.
You missed the next verse. God moves within us so that our working will lead to, not to becoming saved, but to a growing in belief, and understanding of salvation. IOW, it doesn't matter where one's understanding or faith begins from, if one of the elect, God will move them to a correct understanding of Christ - God is only within those who already have already become saved.
[Phl 2:12-13 KJV]
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
We have already explained that good works follow, and is a result of, salvation, not the reverse.
No, it doesn't say that. It says Abraham was reckoned faith (belief) FOR righteousness: righteousness through Christ's faith. Christ's righteousness and his faith are one. When His faith is reckoned, His righteousness is too. Righteousness only comes with Christ's faith. That is what "from faith to faith" means: from Christ's faith unto faith within us. Man's faith has no righteousness in it, only Christ's does. Did you see/understand the verses I posted regarding righteousness? "the righteous" of Habakkuk 2:4, are those saved who were made righteous through the faith (and righteousness), of Christ reckoned to them - Christ alone is the Saviour, man is not, as such, if we then live, it can only be though/because of Christ and not because of ourselves.
Regarding Isiah 51:7, those who hearken to God are those who already know righteousness. To know righteousness comes by, and through, having been saved and having received the righteousness of Christ. The law of God is Christ Himself, which is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus -it is not the law of works, which is the law of sin and death.
Why would someone choose to obey "God's instructions" as you say, if they didn't already have faith to make them want to do so?
They would have no desire to, so would already have faith, in order to desire to acquire faith- a logical impossibility/ absurdity.
[Phl 2:12-13 KJV]
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
We have already explained that good works follow, and is a result of, salvation, not the reverse.
No, it doesn't say that. It says Abraham was reckoned faith (belief) FOR righteousness: righteousness through Christ's faith. Christ's righteousness and his faith are one. When His faith is reckoned, His righteousness is too. Righteousness only comes with Christ's faith. That is what "from faith to faith" means: from Christ's faith unto faith within us. Man's faith has no righteousness in it, only Christ's does. Did you see/understand the verses I posted regarding righteousness? "the righteous" of Habakkuk 2:4, are those saved who were made righteous through the faith (and righteousness), of Christ reckoned to them - Christ alone is the Saviour, man is not, as such, if we then live, it can only be though/because of Christ and not because of ourselves.
Regarding Isiah 51:7, those who hearken to God are those who already know righteousness. To know righteousness comes by, and through, having been saved and having received the righteousness of Christ. The law of God is Christ Himself, which is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus -it is not the law of works, which is the law of sin and death.
Why would someone choose to obey "God's instructions" as you say, if they didn't already have faith to make them want to do so?
They would have no desire to, so would already have faith, in order to desire to acquire faith- a logical impossibility/ absurdity.
God working in us the will to do good works is still describing the aspect of our salvation in the present. Good works are not the result or the cause of our salvation, but rather doing them is itself the content of the gift of God saving us from not doing good works.
Genesis 15:1-6 clearly states that it is Abraham who believed the believing. Likewise, in James 2:23, it directly states that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. In Galatians 3:6, Abraham is described as the father of faith, so he clearly had faith. Christ is righteousness, every righteous actions testifies about the nature of who He is and there is not righteousness apart from the nature of who He is. God's law was not given as instruction for how to establish our own righteousness, but for how to testify about Christ's righteousness.
In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God said without departing from it, so the Law of Moses is the Law of God, and it is referred as being the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-3. The Law of Moses is God's word and Christ is God's word made flesh. God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. The Law of Moses is not a law of works, but the law of faith (Romans 3:27-31). In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so the Law of Moses is not the law of sin and death.
The same faith by which we are justified is also expressed by becoming a doers of God's instructions. Someone who is not a doer of God's instructions also does not have faith.
"Righteous" has a lot of theological baggage, so let's try speaking about "courageous". It is not the case that someone is required to have first done a certain amount of courageous act in order to become courageous as the result as if it could be earned a wage, but rather the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be someone who is a doer of courageous works apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of courageous works. Becoming courageous means becoming a doer of courageous works and it is contradictory to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works. The same is true of becoming righteousness or any other character trait.
God's law is His instructions for how to be a doer of righteous works, not for how to become righteous. For example, God's law reveals that it is righteous to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the only way to become righteous is through faith in Christ that we ought to be a doer of righteous works. So when God declares us to be righteous through faith He is declaring us to be a doer of righteous works through faith. Becoming a doer of righteous works is not the cause of the result of becoming righteous, but rather that is what it means to become righteous.
Genesis 15:1-6 clearly states that it is Abraham who believed the believing. Likewise, in James 2:23, it directly states that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. In Galatians 3:6, Abraham is described as the father of faith, so he clearly had faith. Christ is righteousness, every righteous actions testifies about the nature of who He is and there is not righteousness apart from the nature of who He is. God's law was not given as instruction for how to establish our own righteousness, but for how to testify about Christ's righteousness.
In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God said without departing from it, so the Law of Moses is the Law of God, and it is referred as being the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-3. The Law of Moses is God's word and Christ is God's word made flesh. God is not in disagreement with Himself about which laws we should follow, so the Law of Christ is the same as the Law of the Spirit and the Law of the Father, which was given to Moses. The Law of Moses is not a law of works, but the law of faith (Romans 3:27-31). In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of Life with the law of sin and death, so the Law of Moses is not the law of sin and death.
The same faith by which we are justified is also expressed by becoming a doers of God's instructions. Someone who is not a doer of God's instructions also does not have faith.
"Righteous" has a lot of theological baggage, so let's try speaking about "courageous". It is not the case that someone is required to have first done a certain amount of courageous act in order to become courageous as the result as if it could be earned a wage, but rather the only way to become courageous is through faith that we ought to be someone who is a doer of courageous works apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of courageous works. Becoming courageous means becoming a doer of courageous works and it is contradictory to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works. The same is true of becoming righteousness or any other character trait.
God's law is His instructions for how to be a doer of righteous works, not for how to become righteous. For example, God's law reveals that it is righteous to help the poor, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the only way to become righteous is through faith in Christ that we ought to be a doer of righteous works. So when God declares us to be righteous through faith He is declaring us to be a doer of righteous works through faith. Becoming a doer of righteous works is not the cause of the result of becoming righteous, but rather that is what it means to become righteous.
In thinking about it further, I'm not satisfied with the way I stated it in my prior reply to you, so I'll try to clarify it here a little bit.
The verse you were thinking about says "Abraham believed God"; the verse I was thinking about says "faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness".
What I should have included, is that his belief was as a product of the reckoned faith, as it is reckoned to all of the saved. By that refaith (and righteousness), Abraham believed God. For those saved, a belief in (and a knowledge of) Christ grows throughout their lifetimes but it comes from faith. This is relationship is confirmed by Gal 2:16 - that faith, and from it, belief, originates from Christ, not man.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The verse you were thinking about says "Abraham believed God"; the verse I was thinking about says "faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness".
What I should have included, is that his belief was as a product of the reckoned faith, as it is reckoned to all of the saved. By that refaith (and righteousness), Abraham believed God. For those saved, a belief in (and a knowledge of) Christ grows throughout their lifetimes but it comes from faith. This is relationship is confirmed by Gal 2:16 - that faith, and from it, belief, originates from Christ, not man.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Sorry, I don't understand that. Please clarify.
Read my prior reply to you. It all comes from Christ.
Abraham believed, but his belief was because of Christ, not himself.
A "doer" is someone who's belief is in Christ and who rests from his labors therein.
[Jas 1:25 KJV] 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
No righteous is not courageous. To be righteous is to be made so by Christ wherein all one's sins have been forgiven.
Do not understand. You seem to contradict or reverse yourself. There is only one who is righteous is Christ's, not man.
Those saved do good works, but they do them as a result of the righteousness given them from Christ.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
No, the only way to become righteous is through the faith OF Christ, not faith IN Christ. Faith IN Christ only comes from the faith OF Christ.
Read my prior reply to you. It all comes from Christ.
Abraham believed, but his belief was because of Christ, not himself.
A "doer" is someone who's belief is in Christ and who rests from his labors therein.
[Jas 1:25 KJV] 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
No righteous is not courageous. To be righteous is to be made so by Christ wherein all one's sins have been forgiven.
Do not understand. You seem to contradict or reverse yourself. There is only one who is righteous is Christ's, not man.
Those saved do good works, but they do them as a result of the righteousness given them from Christ.
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
No, the only way to become righteous is through the faith OF Christ, not faith IN Christ. Faith IN Christ only comes from the faith OF Christ.
Yes, it is different, but it is from. God is working within us. For God to be working within us, we first would have to be saved, but not to become saved.
If Abraham was counted as righteous by God then he was righteous. The righteousness was not of Abraham but of Christ. That is why
Christ is the Saviour and man is not.
THEY ARE ABSOULTELY NOT the same! The faith OF Christ is genitive which denotes that Christ is the possessor of faith; faith IN Christ denotes faith's object - the two are entirely different things with two entirely different purposes and meanings.
The law of God is, and is by, Christ, not in our works.
Okay, no offense, but I don't see any benefit in us continuing with this further and we keep repeating the same things.
So, until one of us changes our biblical understanding, we can then resume it then.
If Abraham was counted as righteous by God then he was righteous. The righteousness was not of Abraham but of Christ. That is why
Christ is the Saviour and man is not.
THEY ARE ABSOULTELY NOT the same! The faith OF Christ is genitive which denotes that Christ is the possessor of faith; faith IN Christ denotes faith's object - the two are entirely different things with two entirely different purposes and meanings.
The law of God is, and is by, Christ, not in our works.
Okay, no offense, but I don't see any benefit in us continuing with this further and we keep repeating the same things.
So, until one of us changes our biblical understanding, we can then resume it then.