No one helplessly falls away from Christ - it's a choice

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throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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Are you going to put Isaiah 63:11 in your ignore bucket? Yes, had Jesus not risen, neither will Moses, or any of us arise. Jesus conquered death for all of the elect.
No you miss the point . No one could be regenerated until after the resurrection of Jesus . So before the resurrection no one could be regenerated. Now because this is critical to your calvinism you cannot accept this ,otherwise you would have to question your position . Which wont be an overnight process. But I hope you will begin to consider the major flaws in your world view of reformed theology.
 

MyrtleTrees

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Sep 5, 2014
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In all do respect, How do you interpret Rom 8:18-25? Is this saying that Paul fell away at times?
Ok here's your passage:

Rom 8:18-25

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
KJV
Comment: I see no evidence that Paul ever fell away from Christ, after he was converted on that road, on the way to persecute Christians. Romans is a difficult book, I know. To me, your passage here, means: That though God's people must suffer hardships in this life, it isn't worth comparing it with the eternal joy they'll have in heaven after this life. God has allowed us to suffer such hardships, because of His hope and plan for us all to end up in heaven if we remain faithful to Him. We "groan" in our wish to be free of our fleshly bodies and their weaknesses, and to be in heaven where we'll suffer none of this. The hope of eternity in heaven for humans was not made possible until Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world. A person who has no hope of getting to heaven - isn't able to end up in heaven - unless or until he comes to have that hope in this life, before he dies, at least. It is well worth being patient in waiting for our eternity in heaven, once we get saved, and in doing so, have the confidence that this is where they'll end up if they remain faithful to God to the end of their life.
 

MyrtleTrees

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Sep 5, 2014
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Putting up a general search really is not acceptable! Next time, pull out some of those verses, in context, not cherry picked, and explain why they support your beliefs. Of course, you can continue being lazy, and posting links like this, but be assured, few will click on the link, because you have not even had the courtesy to give an explanation for what you believe the verse says!

Plus, these searches are one sided. And 1 verse doesn't begin to look at the whole meaning of the passage. A good example is Psalms 14:1

"There is no God"

I looked up this phrase, and it is all over Scripture. But each time, when I looked and the verses before and after, in the chapter, in context to the people being written to, and the time, I find this phrase is qualified.

"The fool says in his heart,
'There is no God.'
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good." Psslm 14:1

In context, that phrase was NOT saying there is no God, instead, the verse is saying that this is what fools say, and also disbelievers in God are corrupt, vile, and do no good.

I could give you 10 more examples, suffice it to say, your hermeneutics is faulty, when you post a link to a topic without explain the verse in context

Moving on to my main point, God clearly states that those who fall away never really were on of the elect. (If you don't believe in the elect, that's too bad, because the Bible uses that term to describe believers!)

"Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:18-19

Here John refers to these people first as antichrists, and when they left the church, it was because they were never saved in the first place!

If someone belongs to Christ they will not slip away! Either we belong to Christ, and we are believers, or we don't belong to Christ, and we never belonged to Christ. None of this "once a Christian. If you don't pull yourself up by the boot straps, then you have failed." That is the definition of a works gospel!

In fact, since God saved us, totally, if we fall away, God has sinned by allowing us to walk away! Of course, no one will ever admit that, but it basically comes down to God saving us, and not being powerful enough to hold onto us. That is not the God I serve, I serve the sovereign God of the universe! (No, I don't believe in free will when it comes to salvation! We cannot make the choice, as dead people to save ourselves. We do not have the power to save ourselves, and we certainly do not have the inclination!)

Here is a basic passage, explaining what happens when God saves us!

"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." Eph. 1:3-14

"And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—" Romans 9:10-11

There are many other verses that could be used to show you your soteriology is wrong, but I'll leave it as this for now!
I respect your views, and believe we are both equally sincere in our views. So the thing to do when Christians disagree after discussing spiritual topics - is to just pray for one another. So let's do the same. God bless you!
 
Jan 25, 2015
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Israel had to wander the desert for 40 years because they questioned God's ability to destroy their enemy. If they listened to Gideon they would have entered the promised land without their trip through he desert.

God told them they would wander in the desert a year for every day they scouted the promised land. So if you ask why, it was because of disobedience.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I respect your view, and know many other sincere Christians believe as you do - that "it is not possible for a true Christian to fall away." But this is not what I see in the scriptures. I do agree there is a point where a Christian - after a time of being "tried" - show themselves to be solidly faithful to God and fully surrendered to God. At that point and ever after - yes, there is full protection against falling away, so that it is no longer a danger for them. No one helplessly falls away. And the Bible shows plenty of ways to be kept safe from having that ever happening.
2 Peter 1:4-11

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
KJV
I see your difficulty in interpreting the James passage about how faith is dead without works. I know it isn't in modern wording. But I do know many scripture passages that show that obedience (often called "works" or 'fruit" and regular, sincere repentance is required, following accepting Jesus as Lord (God) and Savior of one's life. Here's one verse I know that shows the sad plight of anyone who turns away from God through willful (unrepented of) sins, if he never turns back to God:

Heb 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
KJV
2 things

James is about a claimed faith not about real faith. I have no problem interpreting James. James agreed with Paul. Those saved by faith are created anew for good works. They will NOT be hearers if the word not doers as those in James were

As for Hebrews

Again the question is IF they fall away. It does not say they can it is saying if they do (is it possible) well if it is. The author of Hebrews makes it clear they can never be re-saved again they would be lost forever. It is in his words @ImPossible to renew them to repentance”

So I point you to John. Where he said one born of avid can. It sin. Whoever sins have never seen if known God. And how they departed From us but they were never if us

I can’t lose eternal life. If I could it was never eternal Life

However. I can think I have faith (James 2) think I have salvation think I am saved. But I am still a dog. Who will always return to his Vomit (Never have been saved)
 

MyrtleTrees

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Sep 5, 2014
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Thankfully we are saved by Jesus and sealed by the Holy Spirit until!!!! the day of redemption and not on our fruit . After all if all our fruit was placed on the scales we would all be lost . Thats why Jesus had to do it .
True - all those who sincerely and wholeheartedly and prayerfully serve God in daily life, and have been tried and shown to be lastingly faithful to God, are guaranteed a home in heaven after this life, as a result of Jesus' death on the cross. But many Christians who are not fully surrendered to God and fail to become so later will fall away (lose interest and devotion towards God) with time - as can be seen in the Sower parable. And the Bible has many verses that show it is possible to fall away for some Christians. Otherwise the Bible wouldn't mention that possibility. A person can't fall away unless they are recognized by God as being a true believer. It isn't possible to fall away from something if it never existed.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Peter repents and gets forgiven. Jesus appoints him to tend to and feed the lambs of Jesus, his followers. I'm just wondering if it was a choice or not.
Um

1 Peter did not repent or even ask forgiveness

But Jesus DID show peter he forgave him already by telling him to feed his sheep even though peter could not say he “agape” Loved him (sadly a fact not found in English interpretations)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, Peter had to agree to do what Jesus said as to His command, "Feed my lambs."
1. Jesus did not say do this or else
2. Peter never said he would do it

I would try not to add to the words of scripture
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Depends on context. I fell away as a prodigal son for 5 years, but I never stopped being the son
This seems to contradict your #78 post.
Yes that's right of course that's possible and there are varying degrees in which such things happen in a belivers life.The scripture is full of many truths concerning the security we have in christ..yet in the other element the scriptures also addresses the ability to make decisions and choices too within the dynamic of salvation which is Gods gift to us.Philipians 2:12 Paul encourages us to work our out salvation ect...not to work for if as it is God free gift to us..but to work it out.There are countless verbs throughout the new testament instructing us how to be.Obviously we are under grace not law and its within these parameters that a person can for some reason turn away from the lord for whatever reason and as I mentioned previously I am sure many come back to a place in God.
There is nothing wrong with the various terms use to describe a person who turns away for the lord..hosea 14:4 mentions thr term backsliding..other says "turn away",or "forsake"...Plus I wasnt even suggesting a person could loose their salvation yet some will be deceived into think they are right with him...but he never knew them Matt 7:22...plus jesus said its this who do his fathers will will enter into heaven.
Verse 21 does not say "heaven". It says "the kingdom of heaven" which has reference to the church. The scriptures use several names to describe the church that Jesus established, such as; Zion, the church in the wilderness, the church of Christ, the kingdom of God, the church of the first born, the church of God, the new Jerusalem, etc. The visible church has some restrictions in their discipline that the gates of heaven does not. There is an invisible church, which includes all of God's elect, and there is a visible church made up of those elect that have been revealed, by the Holy Spirit within them, the truths of the doctrine of Jesus.(Ezek 10). If it were a requirement to do God's will to enter into eternal heaven, then it would be "eternal salvation by our good works".
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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True - all those who sincerely and wholeheartedly and prayerfully serve God in daily life, and have been tried and shown to be lastingly faithful to God, are guaranteed a home in heaven after this life, as a result of Jesus' death on the cross. But many Christians who are not fully surrendered to God and fail to become so later will fall away (lose interest and devotion towards God) with time - as can be seen in the Sower parable. And the Bible has many verses that show it is possible to fall away for some Christians. Otherwise the Bible wouldn't mention that possibility. A person can't fall away unless they are recognized by God as being a true believer. It isn't possible to fall away from something if it never existed.
So your saying that once a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit he cannot be lost ?
 

MyrtleTrees

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Sep 5, 2014
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2 things

James is about a claimed faith not about real faith. I have no problem interpreting James. James agreed with Paul. Those saved by faith are created anew for good works. They will NOT be hearers if the word not doers as those in James were

As for Hebrews

Again the question is IF they fall away. It does not say they can it is saying if they do (is it possible) well if it is. The author of Hebrews makes it clear they can never be re-saved again they would be lost forever. It is in his words @ImPossible to renew them to repentance”

So I point you to John. Where he said one born of avid can. It sin. Whoever sins have never seen if known God. And how they departed From us but they were never if us
I can’t lose eternal life. If I could it was never eternal LifeI

However. I can think I have faith (James 2) think I have salvation think I am saved. But I am still a dog. Who will always return to his Vomit (Never have been saved)
I believe that passage in Hebrews does not mean there is no hope of a Christian who has turned away from Christ, can't return to Him through repentance. The wording of the Bible is sometimes difficult. But it helps to compare verses on a subject to better avoid an incorrect interpretation. And to realize that the scriptures never contradict themselves, as they are all true. So if one verse seems to contradict another - a good method is, as I said - to compare scriptures on a subject, before arriving at a final conclusion. God's Word says that God forgives all sincere repentance - so that makes it clear to me that He does;

1 John 1:9

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
KJV
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Um

1 Peter did not repent or even ask forgiveness

But Jesus DID show peter he forgave him already by telling him to feed his sheep even though peter could not say he “agape” Loved him (sadly a fact not found in English interpretations)
It doesn't say the words but it's inferred Peter repented. I find it hard to believe Peter continued on in stiff-necked unrepentant denial of his Lord and Savior Jesus.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
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True - all those who sincerely and wholeheartedly and prayerfully serve God in daily life, and have been tried and shown to be lastingly faithful to God, are guaranteed a home in heaven after this life, as a result of Jesus' death on the cross. But many Christians who are not fully surrendered to God and fail to become so later will fall away (lose interest and devotion towards God) with time - as can be seen in the Sower parable. And the Bible has many verses that show it is possible to fall away for some Christians. Otherwise the Bible wouldn't mention that possibility. A person can't fall away unless they are recognized by God as being a true believer. It isn't possible to fall away from something if it never existed.
You say ///all those who sincerely and wholeheartedly and prayerfully serve God in daily life, and have been tried and shown to be lastingly faithful to God, are guaranteed a home in heaven after this life, as a result of Jesus' death on the cross. /// Do see the contraction here ? How is a person saved ? is it by being sincere , wholeheartedly serve God , daily , with prayers . Being tried ,demonstrating faithfulness to God ? Or are we saved by Jesus death , burial and resurrection?
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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No you miss the point . No one could be regenerated until after the resurrection of Jesus . So before the resurrection no one could be regenerated. Now because this is critical to your calvinism you cannot accept this ,otherwise you would have to question your position . Which wont be an overnight process. But I hope you will begin to consider the major flaws in your world view of reformed theology.
So, are you going to leave Isaiah 63:11 unexplained?
 

MyrtleTrees

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Sep 5, 2014
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So your saying that once a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit he cannot be lost ?
I don't see the word, "sealed' as always necessarily speaking of a Christian who has reached full surrender to God. I see the verse show up in my Bible software in a number of New Testament books. But I see lots of warnings throughout the books against falling away. So the term "sealed" - I believe - refers to a true Christian - but not necessarily that none of them are capable of falling away. It's a choice to fall away - never helplessly happens.

Rom 8:15-16

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
KJV
The ones who fell away in the Sower parable are examples of some who were at first sincere - but who later willingly fell away - had a change of mind for the worse
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Ok here's your passage:

Rom 8:18-25

18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
KJV
Comment: I see no evidence that Paul ever fell away from Christ, after he was converted on that road, on the way to persecute Christians. Romans is a difficult book, I know. To me, your passage here, means: That though God's people must suffer hardships in this life, it isn't worth comparing it with the eternal joy they'll have in heaven after this life. God has allowed us to suffer such hardships, because of His hope and plan for us all to end up in heaven if we remain faithful to Him. We "groan" in our wish to be free of our fleshly bodies and their weaknesses, and to be in heaven where we'll suffer none of this. The hope of eternity in heaven for humans was not made possible until Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world. A person who has no hope of getting to heaven - isn't able to end up in heaven - unless or until he comes to have that hope in this life, before he dies, at least. It is well worth being patient in waiting for our eternity in heaven, once we get saved, and in doing so, have the confidence that this is where they'll end up if they remain faithful to God to the end of their life.
Are you affirming that, after you were born again, you have never committed a sin, and had to ask God's forgiveness?
 

MyrtleTrees

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You say ///all those who sincerely and wholeheartedly and prayerfully serve God in daily life, and have been tried and shown to be lastingly faithful to God, are guaranteed a home in heaven after this life, as a result of Jesus' death on the cross. /// Do see the contraction here ? How is a person saved ? is it by being sincere , wholeheartedly serve God , daily , with prayers . Being tried ,demonstrating faithfulness to God ? Or are we saved by Jesus death , burial and resurrection?
We are saved by accepting Jesus as Savior and Lord - and through sincere repentance. That part is short and simple. But just as the people of Israel were saved out of slavery in Egypt - but later - many of them failed to please God and also wished they could return to Egypt - the same thing can happen to new believers, if they do not prayerfully choose to remain faithful to God in daily life.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
It doesn't say the words but it's inferred Peter repented. I find it hard to believe Peter continued on in stiff-necked unrepentant denial of his Lord and Savior Jesus.
Peter was sorrowfully as soon as the crow sounded

I find it hard to believe you think he would have lost his salvation
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I believe that passage in Hebrews does not mean there is no hope of a Christian who has turned away from Christ, can't return to Him through repentance. The wording of the Bible is sometimes difficult. But it helps to compare verses on a subject to better avoid an incorrect interpretation. And to realize that the scriptures never contradict themselves, as they are all true. So if one verse seems to contradict another - a good method is, as I said - to compare scriptures on a subject, before arriving at a final conclusion. God's Word says that God forgives all sincere repentance - so that makes it clear to me that He does;

1 John 1:9

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
KJV
Hebrews states emphatically. It is impossible. IF they fall away. To renew them to repentance

1 John is restoring fellowship not sonship